What's not heroic about fighting crazed spuerpowered fascists trying to take over the multiverse? 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I cunningly managed to hit return too soon and the supergreat forum software won't let me edit my post
But to conclude: I've noted that there are plenty of other factions that are conning at lvl 54 - they aren't Incarnate. Why do I need to be? I could join Malta or something. Hell I can go from Hero to Villain in a week so why not turn on "my own" as a renegade.
Thelonious Monk
Quote:
Cause Malta would have you fitted for a shock collar and threaten to shoot your mom if you didn't do exactly what they said. That's my only nitpick with your post. I agree with everything else.
|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
Why would I sign up to be an Incarnate at the risk of my soul when I could be a cool Malta or somebody?
|
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
"Be careful what you wish for. You might just get it."
I've made no secret of my dislike of the idea of Endgame Raiding, but it's early days yet. It will certainly be interesting when the Raids hit the live servers to see how often they are run, by whom, and most importantly, for how long.
/Shrug. I spent a month in Praetoria last year and loved it. Then I had to take an extended break from the game and am only just starting to play around with the Tip system, and I love that too. I can live with an issue or two that's of little or no interest to me.
I21 and I22 are likely to be stronger indications of whether or not we're entering the era of 'City of Raiding' or not, because really I20 is an experiment in introducing a style of playing the game that's new to CoH, though well known in other MMOs. I'm willing to wait and see how it turns out.
However: I think the 'choice' argument is close to being lost. Going Rogue was great in that respect, but... RWZ, Cimerora, all of the post-50 content - all co-op, that is to say heroic stuff that villains can join in on. I suppose that's a development decision, and you only have to look at what's being said about the I20 TF and SF to see that right now heroic content is getting the lion's share of development resources.
So don't - that is your choice. Much like utilising the Invention Origin system, the in-game concept of which is pretty pitiful (and treated with much derision on launch as I'm sure you remember) you either take it or leave it. The Incarnate system is optional progression, it furthers the current (or one of) storyline's of the game rather than, specifically, your personal one. You just kinda go along for the ride, much like CoV's Project: Destiny.
Quote:
I did not wish for an endgame that consists of raids. I also did not wish for an endgame that forced me to participate in an overarching, character-hijacking and frankly lame storyline in order to advance my character mechanically.
|
Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
"Be careful what you wish for. You might just get it."
I've made no secret of my dislike of the idea of Endgame Raiding, but it's early days yet. It will certainly be interesting when the Raids hit the live servers to see how often they are run, by whom, and most importantly, for how long. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
If you don't like the story, make up your own. Or simply don't take part in it.
Quote:
I too am not a fan of raid content. I do not beta test so I am waiting patiently to see how the next phase is rolled out. If it becomes a neccesity, then I will have to decide whether the game still holds the same enjoyment to keep me playing.
|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
I did not wish for an endgame that consists of raids. I also did not wish for an endgame that forced me to participate in an overarching, character-hijacking and frankly lame storyline in order to advance my character mechanically.
|
Quote:
And so it begins. The influx of people who missed the part about "I wanted an endgame" and completely miss the point of yet another post expressing dissatisfaction with the direction the endgame is taking. Am I going to have to resort to obnoxious multicolored giant font for people to get it?|
Originally Posted by Extremus
So don't - that is your choice. Much like utilising the Invention Origin system, the in-game concept of which is pretty pitiful (and treated with much derision on launch as I'm sure you remember) you either take it or leave it. The Incarnate system is optional progression, it furthers the current (or one of) storyline's of the game rather than, specifically, your personal one. You just kinda go along for the ride, much like CoV's Project: Destiny.
|
I WANT AN END GAME BUT I DON'T LIKE THE DIRECTION THE END GAME IS TAKING.
And CoV's Project: Destiny was also a bad storyline. It was a hamfisted attempt to explain why a Chaotic Evil cliche wanted your character around, and should not be imitated or held up as a good example of anything.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
The only thing I hate about the coming content and I hate myself about it for saying it here, is... I don't like how I will grind all these and get the new powers that are not very suitable for my character.
I want Psionic based Judgement and Interface powers. I don't want fire, or ice, or electric, or dark! The silly thing about it is, the Developers mentioned expanding the choices. That means, if I happened to get all those stuff in I20 before the updated issue comes where they expand the choices... I'd have to grind again to change my fire Judgement which I happened to choose for now since I do not have any option. I did not even mention how much all these costs.
This game is about alting and customization. I felt like the new content is totally different thing and it separates from the game itself. If I have the last say, I would postpone i20 and add more choices and more content.
Don't get me wrong, I already re-colored my Pyro Judgement to Pink and I called it "Pyrokinetic Arena..."
I'm not even gonna mention Lore...
So yeah I have to wash my hands now... I feel dirty. I still love this game and I still love the grinding. I just want the right reward, after grinding that is all.
[center][IMG]http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h461/cohroguemagazine/Logos/sig.png[/IMG][/center]
[center][size=1][color=#FF99CC][font=Tahoma] GLOBAL: @Antoinette |[/font][/color][color=#FF99CC][font=Tahoma] MAIN: [/font][/color][url=http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Pinkrise][color=#FF99CC][font=tahoma]Pinkrise[/font][/color][/url][color=#FF99CC][font=Tahoma] | SG: [/font][/color][url=http://www.wix.com/netherealist/spitfire][color=#FF99CC][font=Tahoma]The Ethereals [/font][/color][/url][font=Tahoma][color=#FF99CC] | PROJECTS: [/font][/color][url=http://cohrm.wordpress.com][color=#FF99CC][font=tahoma]Rogue Magazine [/font][/color][/url][/size][/center]
Quote:
I was holding it up as a poor example, not a good example. Infact, most of the story telling in this game is... lacking somewhat. You're constantly forced along a path, trying to carve some story out for you, but finding out - guess what? Destiny, prophecy, machinations of the omnipotent super fountain.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
And so it begins. The influx of people who missed the part about "I wanted an endgame" and completely miss the point of yet another post expressing dissatisfaction with the direction the endgame is taking. Am I going to have to resort to obnoxious multicolored giant font for people to get it?
I WANT AN END GAME BUT I DON'T LIKE THE DIRECTION THE END GAME IS TAKING. And CoV's Project: Destiny was also a bad storyline. It was a hamfisted attempt to explain why a Chaotic Evil cliche wanted your character around, and should not be imitated or held up as a good example of anything. |
My point being that, thematically, this is all as optional as IO's or Accolades. It may not be the end game you personally want, but it will suit the vast majority and the developers opinion will sadly be somewhere between 'So? Our game!' and 'lol mission architect'.
You are not forced to follow this progression path, this is not World of Warcraft's Cataclysm where a change is literally forced upon you so you have to adapt. Your character's storyline can quite simply "stop" at a certain point, or continue against the Malta Group's tireless crusade against meta-humans or even singlemindedly stop the menace of Hamidon becoming fully resurgent with your trusted compatriots.
If you do not want to do the Incarnate stuff, do not like doing it or have an aversion to end game raiding of this sort - if you care that much about your hero's story, what is stopping you making your own? It's what everyone used to do before the magical days of 'progression' in this game, as much of a cop out as that may seem now we're getting Post-50 stuff to do.
Quote:
A lot of us DO like what we've experienced of the endgame so far. I have no trouble finding people to team with for weekly task forces or even shard runs. |
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
And so it begins. The influx of people who missed the part about "I wanted an endgame" and completely miss the point of yet another post expressing dissatisfaction with the direction the endgame is taking. Am I going to have to resort to obnoxious multicolored giant font for people to get it?
I WANT AN END GAME BUT I DON'T LIKE THE DIRECTION THE END GAME IS TAKING. And CoV's Project: Destiny was also a bad storyline. It was a hamfisted attempt to explain why a Chaotic Evil cliche wanted your character around, and should not be imitated or held up as a good example of anything. |
The only place I ever see complaints about incarnate content is on these forums. Everyone I see commenting in chat, global or otherwise, seems to be enjoying the new content.
Quote:
This is actually an entirely new thing. Even Project: Destiny didn't turn out the way Recluse intended. In the end, he's forced to admit that you overcame the destiny he had planned out for you.|
Originally Posted by Extremus
I was holding it up as a poor example, not a good example. Infact, most of the story telling in this game is... lacking somewhat. You're constantly forced along a path, trying to carve some story out for you, but finding out - guess what? Destiny, prophecy, machinations of the omnipotent super fountain.
|
Quote:
| If you do not want to do the Incarnate stuff, do not like doing it or have an aversion to end game raiding of this sort - if you care that much about your hero's story, what is stopping you making your own? It's what everyone used to do before the magical days of 'progression' in this game, as much of a cop out as that may seem now we're getting Post-50 stuff to do. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
One thing that stands out for me, God like powers mean that powers wise a hero would be virtually untouchable by non-incarnates.
i.e. - A Dam Res or Def buff through the roof. Can't see that happening any time soon though.
Again this is something I would love to be wrong with. 
Quote:
It's not really under the auspices of free choice though, is it? Even at the end of the final arc, Recluse tells you that he was warned that you are/may be too powerful for his designs by psychics. You're told you either need to stop Recluse (via the future), or run. There's no choice in that; you cannot overthrow the tyrant or flee in to the multiverse - you derail Project: Destiny or nothing. One can even argue it was your destiny to break destiny. Hurr.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
This is actually an entirely new thing. Even Project: Destiny didn't turn out the way Recluse intended. In the end, he's forced to admit that you overcame the destiny he had planned out for you.
|
I don't really see that being much different from having the "choice" of quick power via the Well, or slow power via the Incarnate system. Guess what the choice you can make there is? Oh... wait.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Um, so how does that help me with the wanting an end-game part?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Extremus
So don't - that is your choice. Much like utilising the Invention Origin system, the in-game concept of which is pretty pitiful (and treated with much derision on launch as I'm sure you remember) you either take it or leave it. The Incarnate system is optional progression, it furthers the current (or one of) storyline's of the game rather than, specifically, your personal one. You just kinda go along for the ride, much like CoV's Project: Destiny.
|
I disagree. This is compulsory. This is the point of getting to 50.
Previously you could cherry pick. If it was Inventions or Vanguard Merits or anything else the playing field was level.
If I decline the end game content then I'm immediately excluded from 2 TFs immediately, plust all the other content. To say "don't do it" is facile and unworthy of your intellect.
Thelonious Monk
Quote:
It's not the point of getting to 50, getting to 50 is "the journey" surely? Every action or inaction taken by a character, from the player's point of view moulds said character.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
I disagree. This is compulsory. This is the point of getting to 50.
Previously you could cherry pick. If it was Inventions or Vanguard Merits or anything else the playing field was level. If I decline the end game content then I'm immediately excluded from 2 TFs immediately, plust all the other content. To say "don't do it" is facile and unworthy of your intellect. |
Your objections seem to be mostly thematic, coupled with the outlook that the current Incarnate content is sub-par. Put your own spin on it, why is your character personally searching after these fantastical powers? If it's simply about being able to experience content, then it's content over story. If it's vice versa, it's the (or rather - your) story that matters.
I understand the desire to have a healthy marriage of lore and gameplay, but it's unlikely in any MMO to have said balance simply because of the "Multiplayer" part. You're never going to become the Übermensch of them all when there are seven other people standing next to you.
I may be rusty, but as far as I'm aware you only need the initial Incarnate enhancement thing to avoid any crippling penalty, anything beyond that simply limits your effectiveness in comparison to someone going the whole hog, like fully slotting HO's in I5, or someone powerbuilding IO's in I9 while most people were playing around with 53 SO's still.
Quote:
I would like to see a mix of large raids, smaller TFs, and soloable/small team story arcs, all more challenging than regular content and designed with Incarnate powers in mind. I would like to see the story come first and flashy gimmicks come second, and only if they could support the story. If they really want to do a gimmick but don't have a good story for it to support, make like the sewer trial and keep it basic. "Bad guy do bad stuff. Stop him." and "Guy have cool stuff. Take it." is better than some convoluted nonsense full of plot holes and character derailment.|
Originally Posted by Extremus
You have end game content, you personally just do not enjoy it. While we're at it, mind defining what you see as "end game" content? I once asked a very irascible Greek and didn't get a straight reply, so I figure I'll throw it out to you too.
|
I would like mechanical progression to remain separate from story progression except in the vaguest possible sense. I would like a variety of credible threats to fight. Preferably each issue would hint at the next big threat. I would like an end to evil goatee universes and multiverse-hijacking insane sources of power that force our characters to become total idiots, build up a big threat, then reward us for stopping the thing they started to begin with. I would like to track down the person who came up with the idea of the Lore pets, sit them down, and ask them what the **** they were thinking.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
I'm going to say what I've said before.
Go ahead and fnish this damn Praetoria thing, give the people who want to raid their raids.
Then revisit the shadow shard. What better place to earn/use godlike powers than *against a god?* Let it be done for solo/small teams, but with appropriate power for what you're earning. And give us some decent damn writing, no sudden out of left field "Oh, the well saw Ruularu too and gave him a shower, you must stop him from using all the Incarnate brand shampoo!" or whatever else.
I'm in the opposite boat. I never asked for any sort of endgame, but I'm actually quite looking forward to it.
I never really wanted an "endgame". My main was level 50, fully IO'd, I could RP her as being an established, powerful hero, and spend my time levelling alts, chasing down the last few remaining badges, or playing out our RP stories with my SG.
Then, slowly, our SG's RP stories seemed to grind to a halt. We'd meet up, each Saturday, run a TF one of our alts needed (working up to Task Force Commander on a punch of alts, at a liesury pace), then go our separate ways. No more "hey guys I have a new alt I'd like to introduce IC", just "hey guys I have a new alt that needs levelling".
We hoped GR would liven things up again, and we had a slew of Praetorian character ideas, but Praetoria is not a good place to RP in a group. There were four different sides to choose from, and at those early levels, even a few hours of play would put a character two storylines ahead of another. We eneded up mostly soloing through until 20, and only teaming up our characters again in Paragon and the Isles... when they needed XP.
Alignment Merits were the nail in the coffin. Why run a plot when we can team up, run hero Tips, and work towards shiny and valuable Alignment Merits? Oh, that was five tips. This character is full up. Character exits, with weak IC reason, other character comes in. Five more Tips, ooh I have a Morality mission. Yay, shiny merit. Well, that's all for this week, bye guys.
And then the Alpha slot came in. Epic storyarc! We actually got special costumes to dress up in for the "powerful me from the future" mission! We're embarking on a new quest for greater power than ever before! Awesome!
I'm running all those awesome TFs on my main again, and I'm progressing again! Shards are dropping, components are collecting! I'm an Incarnate! Sure, just the first two tiers of the first slot so far, but there is so much awesome ahead!
I19.5 drops... I am there on the first Tuesday, lining up to get my Notice. Level shifted! Next three weeks, I'm there on Tuesday, running the new TF, getting my happy shiny Notice. I get my purple Alpha at the earlier possible time I could get it barring bugs, and celebrate.
After that things slow down a little. Sure, I have other 50s with Alpha... eh. Sure, I have alts, but... eh. I'm mostly wondering when I can get more stuff for my main again.
Then I hear that I20 will not have another Incarnate slot.
It will have another four Incarnate slots.
Joy! 
It will require running large-scale raids to unlock the slots. Okay! And running them some more to get new salvage to craft the abilities. Cool! See, Emperor Cole is preparing a massive invasion force that blah blah blah- look, I really don't care. Spare me the backstory, just make with the new shinies. I am going to run these Trials as many times as I need to open up all four slots on my main, and then run them some more and get all four Very Rare abilities. Then I'm going to sit back and celebrate my awesome power for a week or two.
And then? Probably quit the game until the next batch of powers comes around.
Character index
Like super hero comics do any better with end game content?
The Galactus stories are ridiculous, IMO. And need I remind you of punching through dimensions.
The end-game of our beloved comic book super heroes winds up in a hand waving depowerment because they got too powerful or reboots. Lots and lots of reboots.
That should say something about how hard it is to write incarnate level powered beings in a story, let alone translating that into MMORPG mechanics.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
Quote:
Solo friendly content has always been a strength of this game, but also paradoxically a massive weakness when you look at things like TF's, Hamidon and various arc's pre AV>EB change. You all start at one place, and you all pretty much end at one place - only the stuff in the middle gives you wiggle room. It's a problem endemic to this game/MMO's rather than being purely confined to the Incarnate system. Should there be more ambitious written, smaller scale content popping up? Sure - throw in some small "TF's" like the Oro one's that are technically do-able solo. Problem is there's been six years of unbelievably noisy clamouring for SOME sort of end game, and considering the market leader and the "epic" scope of raiding over single character progression it's no surprise what we have now.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
I would like to see a mix of large raids, smaller TFs, and soloable/small team story arcs, all more challenging than regular content and designed with Incarnate powers in mind. I would like to see the story come first and flashy gimmicks come second, and only if they could support the story. If they really want to do a gimmick but don't have a good story for it to support, make like the sewer trial and keep it basic. "Bad guy do bad stuff. Stop him." and "Guy have cool stuff. Take it." is better than some convoluted nonsense full of plot holes and character derailment.
|
Back in the day you'd group up with the best of the world/city's heroes and beat back the dreaded Hamidon, the single greatest threat to Paragon/the world now that the Rikti menace is crushed or save Statesman from Praetoria. Woo! What then? Go back to riot control in Skyway to do your heroic duty? Stop Crey playing with their own superpowered police squad? Small game, but that's all there was. Same problem as now. Everything stops at a certain point after a specific arc. Brings me to...
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
I would like mechanical progression to remain separate from story progression except in the vaguest possible sense. I would like a variety of credible threats to fight. Preferably each issue would hint at the next big threat. I would like an end to evil goatee universes and multiverse-hijacking insane sources of power that force our characters to become total idiots, build up a big threat, then reward us for stopping the thing they started to begin with. I would like to track down the person who came up with the idea of the Lore pets, sit them down, and ask them what the **** they were thinking.
|
Quote:
Raids will continue to be added even after we've defeated Tyrant - the Coming Storm will involve raids |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Go ahead and fnish this damn Praetoria thing, give the people who want to raid their raids.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Like super hero comics do any better with end game content?
The Galactus stories are ridiculous, IMO. And need I remind you of punching through dimensions. The end-game of our beloved comic book super heroes winds up in a hand waving depowerment because they got too powerful or reboots. Lots and lots of reboots. That should say something about how hard it is to write incarnate level powered beings in a story, let alone translating that into MMORPG mechanics. |
You've kind of answered your question in your own post. I wanted end game content like many others - actually all I wanted was more to do at 50 - but I never asked for Incarnates. In fact the more I think about it the more antipathy to Incarnates I feel. I wanted content. It didn't need to make me hugely more powerful but it did need to involve me. The current system makes me more powerful but doesn't involve me.
As for your comments: I'm not quite sure a comicbook has any "end game content" because by definition they are open ended - thus at leat contiguous. Some Galactus stories are very poor but some are excellent. That's less about the basic premise than the editorial stance plus writing over a period of about 40something years with diverse creative teams. To a greater extent, NCSoft have carried this project through from day one with a largely intact creative team who (we hope) have an understanding of the overarching story, and yet this is where we end up.
I also made no mention of punching through dimensions in this particular instance but now you have, I'd say it's generally not a great tool and is overly used in the CoH universe.
I never asked for "incarnate level powered beings" as you put it. I wanted end game but I dind't necessarily want supergods. My own preference is maybe not the same as many others in that I like the low key hero: Daredevil and Moon Knight, and even Nick Fury, Tara and Abbey Chase (no relations) really appeal to me because they don't break the world with their powers and are very vulnerable, and yet I mostly find they get some of the best stories.
Sure, "incarnate level stories are some of the hardest to write" so why write them? What we get now seems to be ultimately dissatisfying - I dislike much of the end game story and content thus far. I don't like the whole premise of the Ramiel arc, nor do I enjoy the two level 50 TFs very much, though I don't actually have a huge issue with collecting shards. It gives it purpose. But now I can sleepwalk ITF or LGTF and so now the good content is spoiled for me.
Thelonious Monk
So for those with short attention spans the tl;dr is at the end
I wanted end game content. I wanted "the Galactus Event". I wanted something to aim for once I got to Level 50.
Paragon Studios delivered.
I really really dislike it. I am feeling really uncomfortable about it.
I should maybe add that I'm not so uneasy with the principle - I'm cool with the grind. I mean as a 5 year vet, I've run content time and again because mostly it's pretty cool. Running it again because of a differnt reward isn't a problem for me.
Running content that gets under-used is also good. I have no problem with reinvigorating under-used content for a goal. In fact quite the opposite. I'd like to see that be more content given a reason to play it.
I have huge love for the Praetorian content in terms of it's new stuff to run it's got (mostly) better stories... but as I learn the outcome of the story I'm finding it increasingly troublesome. By that I don't mean the detail but the overarching story.
For me, the biggest problem is simply this: I have no choice. At least from my progression through 1-50 I had a notional choice of choosing contacts or go off and do other things. But when it comes to "end game" I am presented with Hobson's Choice. No debate, no moralising no clue as to where my character wants to go. It's like "well kid, you got this far, you gonna suck it up for the next ride?"
Except that... I don't know what the next ride is.
The first ride is a comicbook. I picked up a box called "City of Heroes" - be a hero. "City of Villains" gives the opposite. But with both games I knew what I was buying into and I bought the game because I'm a huge comic buff. The Superhero thing is my thing (no I don't dre... oh shush you) and it's something I've carried with me since Reed Richards wore a fedora.
This... Incarnate thing... this, this big thing... it's not the game I signed up for. I don't relate to it. I have no connection to it. I spend 50 levels going through the game trying to be the best (or worst) I can be within the available constructs and then I'm offered unlimited power for no obvious reason.
In an of itself that's ok but I don't get to even ask "What's the catch?" It's that or nothing - which in itself may not be a terrible thing but as a PC I don't get the opportunity to question it.
I freely admit I do not like the post-50 content I've been given so far. I think Apex and Tin Mage are quite inferior to Lady Grey, Kahn, Statesman and other high level TFs. This is odd because the new 1-20 content overshadows the existing content by a margin (Frostfire excepted.) All the new TFs do is pander to the "feed me nao" brigage who want a TV dinner. It's an ok story delivered in a plastic bag.
So I'm really not enjoying the new direction of the game. It is seriously sucky to me and ultimately it's like "Do this or bugger off" and delivers a poor story that doesn't work for me. I do however notice that there are other factions that have really high level toons and they aren't Incarnate. Why would I sign up to be an Incarnate at the risk of my soul when I could be a cool Malta or somebody?
The Tl;Dr brigage: Pay more attention if you love the game
Thelonious Monk