I have been vocal in how it feels off to me, relative to the rest of the game. Raids are fine and all. Great. I love that people love them. I think they are OK. But I do not like them being the sum total of the only way to do the incarnate thing.
<aside>And, yes, my wallet is following - my sub will not auto renew for the first time since I started playing. I hope something happens between now and then to let me decide to stay. But I see and hear zero that gives me any hope.</aside>
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This is the crux of the matter isn't it? |
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
For that matter, what do you WANT the end game to be? More TFs, some story arcs? Exactly like the rest of the game, but with more power?
Personally, I would be disappointed if the end game was nothing more than a couple new TFs and story arcs with nothing to differentiate it from the rest of the game. I mean, if nothing about it changed from the 1-50 content, how are you supposed to know you're playing end game content? |
I was thinking about this very thing last night because I have not been able to offer an answer on this.
What is it I would expect? In a dreamscape of Chyll's imagaining (draft 1, mind you):
I would have liked to see something leveraging Origins (a long standing player desire to use those more sits out there, so win/win). Rather than the same Trapdoor arc to unlock, there could have been a series of arcs ideally 1 for each origin (similar feel, but different details), perhaps 1 for vill/hero. So 10 arcs tops. that variety also squelches all the complaints of the repititiveness (win/win/win). Leave a touch of the Well in if needed for linkage, but let it filter through the Origins. Let it feel open if nothing else. A fair amount of work I know... but I was brainstorming.
Then for the rest of the content... I would set up some TFs to kick off the war. Tin, Apex, and the other I20 ones coming seem to line up nicely - so that was done.
Then some normal contacts, 1 vill/1 hero/1 praetorian to let players or teams dig deeper into the war. Let the arcs be incarnate gated, so they can earn incarnate rewards (slower than raids or TFs is fine, it just doesn't have to be as glacial as it seems now), but let the option be there.
(And, yes, a praetorian arc. I have at least one character that would gladly go back to praetorian to keep away any primal invasion, whether he likes Tyrant or not it is still home.)
follow that with letting us know a similar arc structure is pending for the Shadow Shard, for some DE content, all the great bads. Let each issue focus on moving one story forward? Start filling them all rather than single track...
<mini-rant>But let us know. I'm tired of hearing about the coming storm, hints of bastion, unfinished Rikti War, laments of the Shard.... and then we get the Praetorian war bound into incarnates and content pounded out left and right.</mini-rant>
And raids are fine - they are the high points or climax of this war's story line. They should just not drive the entire step into greater power.
<mini-rant>And really, again, we are stronger than ever and we can only do things that require 12-24 of our closest [also stronger] colleagues? It is downright lazy design, IMO.</mini-rant>
perfect ideas? most probably not, but right off the top they seem more flexible, more accessible, and able to better fit a variety of player styles and concerns.
This would also feel more like the CoX I know and love and would have me enthusiastic in keeping my sub online for a long time.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
Quote:
I used to believe such things... after all, bases were a big selling point, so obviously they'd keep working on them, and they'd be paying attention to and adjusting PVP after the big I13 changes, right? And it's fine to have just 5 (total) AE slots, because they'd keep on selecting Dev Choice arcs to free slots up without making up contests of their own... |
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
To be fair they've also just implemented the system, and at implementation of any new system there's going to be a dearth of choices, because that's the way development works. After they're done rolling out the system I imagine they'll start adding more choices. There's a significant lack of faith in the dev team to deliver even though for the last three years they've given players - piecemeal of course - almost everything they've asked for from power customization, to new powersets to powerset proliferation to side switching.
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Here's a fun experiment for you. Put a dog in a room and then toss in, oh, 10-15 of those "superball" type, really bouncy balls. See how the dog chases one, then spins to chase another, then another, completely forgetting the first one? That's our dev team with new systems and storylines. They'll bite and growl at one for 2-3 whole seconds sometimes, then... "Ooh, ball, chase! theresaball, chase that one ooh ball chase bounce ooh ball!"
Praetoria invading makes sense. It HAS been just hanging there for a while. Praetoria invading after rewriting ending arcs making you a third-string wannabe ("yeah, we needed some REAL hero support, so we sent the Phalanx in, go see if you can get a tip for carrying their golf clubs or something!") and then throwing in this out-of-left-field "The well is insane and loooooves Tyrant!" is disappointing and feels shoehorned in. (Much like the "Dr. whatsisface has jiggled the wibblywot and now we have power proliferation" ridiculous cutscene at the end of the VEAT arcs... which themselves put the yearly production of Hoover to shame.)
Incarnates and the Praetorian invasion should, frankly, have been two separate story 'threads.' We get introduced to the Well via Statesman/Recluse's backstory, and a bit of mention of beings like Stheno. We get introduced to a "lost origin" and Incarnates via Cimerora. Incarnates being introduced as a player system *via* the Midnighters/Cimerora would make sense, and open up multiple ways to build that power - use it against the invasion! Unlock via Midnighter tasks! And who else are the Midnighters responsible for locking away, where Godlike power would be handy? Ruularu! Would it take a bit longer to develop? Of course. But it'd be a better way to handle it than this trainwreck of "Insane Well presents, Emperor Cole and his Dancing Clockwork!"
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More good ideas there - probably (okay, very likely) better than my own. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Incarnates and the Praetorian invasion should, frankly, have been two separate story 'threads.' We get introduced to the Well via Statesman/Recluse's backstory, and a bit of mention of beings like Stheno. We get introduced to a "lost origin" and Incarnates via Cimerora. Incarnates being introduced as a player system *via* the Midnighters/Cimerora would make sense, and open up multiple ways to build that power - use it against the invasion! Unlock via Midnighter tasks! And who else are the Midnighters responsible for locking away, where Godlike power would be handy? Ruularu! Would it take a bit longer to develop? Of course. But it'd be a better way to handle it than this trainwreck of "Insane Well presents, Emperor Cole and his Dancing Clockwork!"
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The point being they address the concerns of those-wanting-content-within-the-game-structure without uncutting the benefit of those that like the structure and aren't as concerned about the content.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
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And there goes my keyboard. And I completely agree, I don't see other options being added anytime soon. I'd like to believe otherwise but I think Bill is right on the money about the 'new shiny' chasing.
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Originally Posted by Venture
Not gonna happen. This is Patron Powers 2: Electric Boogaloo.
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@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I used to believe such things... after all, bases were a big selling point, so obviously they'd keep working on them, and they'd be paying attention to and adjusting PVP after the big I13 changes, right? And it's fine to have just 5 (total) AE slots, because they'd keep on selecting Dev Choice arcs to free slots up without making up contests of their own...
Here's a fun experiment for you. Put a dog in a room and then toss in, oh, 10-15 of those "superball" type, really bouncy balls. See how the dog chases one, then spins to chase another, then another, completely forgetting the first one? That's our dev team with new systems and storylines. They'll bite and growl at one for 2-3 whole seconds sometimes, then... "Ooh, ball, chase! theresaball, chase that one ooh ball chase bounce ooh ball!" Praetoria invading makes sense. It HAS been just hanging there for a while. Praetoria invading after rewriting ending arcs making you a third-string wannabe ("yeah, we needed some REAL hero support, so we sent the Phalanx in, go see if you can get a tip for carrying their golf clubs or something!") and then throwing in this out-of-left-field "The well is insane and loooooves Tyrant!" is disappointing and feels shoehorned in. (Much like the "Dr. whatsisface has jiggled the wibblywot and now we have power proliferation" ridiculous cutscene at the end of the VEAT arcs... which themselves put the yearly production of Hoover to shame.) Incarnates and the Praetorian invasion should, frankly, have been two separate story 'threads.' We get introduced to the Well via Statesman/Recluse's backstory, and a bit of mention of beings like Stheno. We get introduced to a "lost origin" and Incarnates via Cimerora. Incarnates being introduced as a player system *via* the Midnighters/Cimerora would make sense, and open up multiple ways to build that power - use it against the invasion! Unlock via Midnighter tasks! And who else are the Midnighters responsible for locking away, where Godlike power would be handy? Ruularu! Would it take a bit longer to develop? Of course. But it'd be a better way to handle it than this trainwreck of "Insane Well presents, Emperor Cole and his Dancing Clockwork!" |
Well made point. I think this was aptly demonstrated when Positron (as lead Dev) made a trip to the EU Test server for the 5th Anniversary address. He was very clear that they wanted to add a lot more content rather than update or retrofit existing content.
That's fine as far as it goes but in a game as venerable as this, then surely there must be quite a bit of justification for renewing the infrastructure. Indeed they have done it from time to time, but it's less frequent than it should be IMO and they've gone off on this massive and fundamentally game changing project in pursuit of the next shiny - and I'm not at all convinced it's working.
The bottom line is there are a lot of "unfinished projects" in CoH as things stand.
Thelonious Monk
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Wait. You mean you're killing them for starting storylines and not finishing but don't want them to focus all their efforts on finishing a storyline they just introduced? In what way does that make sense?
|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I used to believe such things... after all, bases were a big selling point, so obviously they'd keep working on them, and they'd be paying attention to and adjusting PVP after the big I13 changes, right? And it's fine to have just 5 (total) AE slots, because they'd keep on selecting Dev Choice arcs to free slots up without making up contests of their own...
Here's a fun experiment for you. Put a dog in a room and then toss in, oh, 10-15 of those "superball" type, really bouncy balls. See how the dog chases one, then spins to chase another, then another, completely forgetting the first one? That's our dev team with new systems and storylines. They'll bite and growl at one for 2-3 whole seconds sometimes, then... "Ooh, ball, chase! theresaball, chase that one ooh ball chase bounce ooh ball!" Praetoria invading makes sense. It HAS been just hanging there for a while. Praetoria invading after rewriting ending arcs making you a third-string wannabe ("yeah, we needed some REAL hero support, so we sent the Phalanx in, go see if you can get a tip for carrying their golf clubs or something!") and then throwing in this out-of-left-field "The well is insane and loooooves Tyrant!" is disappointing and feels shoehorned in. (Much like the "Dr. whatsisface has jiggled the wibblywot and now we have power proliferation" ridiculous cutscene at the end of the VEAT arcs... which themselves put the yearly production of Hoover to shame.) Incarnates and the Praetorian invasion should, frankly, have been two separate story 'threads.' We get introduced to the Well via Statesman/Recluse's backstory, and a bit of mention of beings like Stheno. We get introduced to a "lost origin" and Incarnates via Cimerora. Incarnates being introduced as a player system *via* the Midnighters/Cimerora would make sense, and open up multiple ways to build that power - use it against the invasion! Unlock via Midnighter tasks! And who else are the Midnighters responsible for locking away, where Godlike power would be handy? Ruularu! Would it take a bit longer to develop? Of course. But it'd be a better way to handle it than this trainwreck of "Insane Well presents, Emperor Cole and his Dancing Clockwork!" |
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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"Finish what you start before starting something new." |
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
Wait. You mean you're killing them for starting storylines and not finishing but don't want them to focus all their efforts on finishing a storyline they just introduced? In what way does that make sense?
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Simple enough concept that our devs don't follow. It's like listening to a little kid describing their day. "Well i went and stood and the stop and billy pulled sally's hair and we had macaroni and mrs smith is our math teacher and she don't like but we played kickball at recess...."
What do we have?
"Well you found a skull and the blood of the black stream but the council took over from the column and ooh shiny zone and but we have AE so we can PVP and then the column came back and time travel and rikti invaded so then we have menders and can I have a cookie and emperor cole called the well a meaniehead...."
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But right now they appear to be breaking that mold since we appear to be heading for an epic conflict with Cole, and you want them to not break the mold and go back and refocus on something else?
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
"Finish what you start before starting something new."
Simple enough concept that our devs don't follow. It's like listening to a little kid describing their day. "Well i went and stood and the stop and billy pulled sally's hair and we had macaroni and mrs smith is our math teacher and she don't like but we played kickball at recess...." What do we have? "Well you found a skull and the blood of the black stream but the council took over from the column and ooh shiny zone and but we have AE so we can PVP and then the column came back and time travel and rikti invaded so then we have menders and can I have a cookie and emperor cole called the well a meaniehead...." |
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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It's not whether they finish a stoyline, it's how they've chosen to do it.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
Wait. You mean you're killing them for starting storylines and not finishing but don't want them to focus all their efforts on finishing a storyline they just introduced? In what way does that make sense?
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People wanted an endgame. Fair enough. An endgame entirely comprised of Raids is... to me it feels like Going Rogue didn't pull in the new subscribers they were hoping for so after almost 7 years of doing their own thing they've decided to follow the "How to MMO - the WoW way" handbook. I hope that isn't the case, because it would smack of behind-the-scenes desperation, but it looks like it.
I wouldn't mind that so much, except CoH isn't exactly known for getting new content out quick, so if they focus on this enough to do it justice in the eyes of those who want an endgame then expanding the rest of the game is going to go on the back burner.
People put up with the last content drought because everyone knew they were working on Going Rogue. What's going to be their excuse this time? Because let's face it, if I21 is also focusing on Raids, and it will be, then we're looking at the end of this year, at the earliest, before we see any return to 'normality', unless this is the new normal, in which case I fear for the future of this game.
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It should be noted that the raids don't play anything like the raids we currently have in game. The raids play like a task force where you change missions but never change maps. The only difference is that more than one full team can be on it.
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Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
It's not whether they finish a stoyline, it's how they've chosen to do it.
People wanted an endgame. Fair enough. An endgame entirely comprised of Raids is... to me it feels like Going Rogue didn't pull in the new subscribers they were hoping for so after almost 7 years of doing their own thing they've decided to follow the "How to MMO - the WoW way" handbook. I hope that isn't the case, because it would smack of behind-the-scenes desperation, but it looks like it. I wouldn't mind that so much, except CoH isn't exactly known for getting new content out quick, so if they focus on this enough to do it justice in the eyes of those who want an endgame then expanding the rest of the game is going to go on the back burner. People put up with the last content drought because everyone knew they were working on Going Rogue. What's going to be their excuse this time? Because let's face it, if I21 is also focusing on Raids, and it will be, then we're looking at the end of this year, at the earliest, before we see any return to 'normality', unless this is the new normal, in which case I fear for the future of this game. |
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
Quote:
That is over simplifying too far.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
But right now they appear to be breaking that mold since we appear to be heading for an epic conflict with Cole, and you want them to not break the mold and go back and refocus on something else?
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Also simpler:
- It is great they are trying to finish this story now... but they are binding that story into a new core game mechanic. [limiting and shallow]
- Instead of advancing multiple stories along with the new mechanic. [choice and variety and depth]
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
Quote:
Jeez, Bill. Pure awesome. I'm takin' that |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
"Finish what you start before starting something new."
"Well you found a skull and the blood of the black stream but the council took over from the column and ooh shiny zone and but we have AE so we can PVP and then the column came back and time travel and rikti invaded so then we have menders and can I have a cookie and emperor cole called the well a meaniehead...." |
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
English does not borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and rifles through their pockets for loose grammar.
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Go re-read the posts. More slowly this time. Key points to watch for:|
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
But right now they appear to be breaking that mold since we appear to be heading for an epic conflict with Cole, and you want them to not break the mold and go back and refocus on something else?
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1. Devs not paying attention to stuff after a short time,
2. Devs leaving things hanging after the new shiny wears off.
3. Poor, cobbled together storylines/"excuses" for mechanics shoehorned into storylines.
Also, Scarlet Shocker and Chyll's posts.
I have NO PROBLEM with them tackling the Praetorian invasion. I even said that it's been overdue.
I DO have problems with them shoehorning in the Well/Incarnate lore, making it "insane," and tying a new game mechanic to it. The Well and Incarnates fit better elsewhere, and could have been handled much better (lore-wise, at the VERY least.)
I ALSO have problems with the devs leaving things hanging and ignoring systems they introduce to make yet another new shiny.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
But right now they appear to be breaking that mold since we appear to be heading for an epic conflict with Cole, and you want them to not break the mold and go back and refocus on something else?
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But in i12/i13 we "appeared" to be headed into a Coming Storm...
My point is not liking Praetoria is one thing, but they're undertaking finishing up the storyline. Whether you like it or not is irrelavent. Also when have they ever told multiple stories at once? i10 was the Rikti Invasion and Vangaurd. You don't like Rikti? Oh well!
Save for them rolling out whole new portions of the game (CoH at launch, CoV) where they needed massive amounts of content, when have they ever told multiple stories at once? They haven't. Even with new mechanics or whatever, they haven't given you multiple stories to enjoy those mechanics with over the same level range.
Now if you would have rather them finish up the Praetorian storyline in i19/i20 that's one thing it would also mean that we wouldn't have the build up we have now. I'm fairly confident that we'll have more incarnate content over time that has nothing to do with Praetoria. I'm fairly confident in that because they told us that. Whether it happens fast enough for you is something else. Hell, whether it happens fast enough for me is something else.
But you're saying "They're jumping around like crazy monkies with these storylines" while people are complaining, at the same time, that they're focusing too much on Praetoria and doing that storyline. Can both be true? Maybe. Historically maybe. But judging what they're doing now, I would say they're trying to finish up Praetoria, which, by the way, was the main attraction of Going Rogue, so all this new stuff is tacked on to the GR imprint, which means they're trying to provide more content for the brought box. If they jumped on to something else, that would be....annoying. Especially if they didn't finish up the Praetorian content.
And of the things you mentioned, off the top of my head, Rularru hasn't been finished up, and I want it to be. The Coming Storm is still coming, but they haven't forgotten about it. Shiva is still out there, but Shivans seem to have something to do with the coming storm, Darrin Wade's arc needs to be finished, but that's tied up in Rularru. The Rikti invasion seems to be more or less complete for the moment, and most of the other stuff in the game exists in a form of equilibrium.
If I'm simplifying it's only because you guys are too. You're only pointing out the things that you don't approve of while ignoring some of the more salient points that lend itself to the otherside. You're complaining equally that you're tired of Praetoria content and want them to focus on other things, while at the same time saying, you want them to stop jumping around from storyline to storyline and focus on completing an arc. They're focusing on completing an arc. it's just not the arc you wanted, but you know what? That would be true of any arc that they chose to complete.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
Quote:
No, I don't think the Rikti should be the focus of End Game. This is the point. NO ONE SINGLE THING SHOULD BE. The Rikti Homeworld would be a good setting for a few end game story arcs though. Heroes can go and help them put their society back together. Villains can go take their stuff.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Can you imagine the cries of distress if End Game turned out to be Rikti Yet Again?
(and rightly so IMO). I wouldn't find that fulfilling in the slightest to be honest. It'd be "in tune with existing lore" alright, basically a rehash of i10. |
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
Wait. You mean you're killing them for starting storylines and not finishing but don't want them to focus all their efforts on finishing a storyline they just introduced? In what way does that make sense?
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
"Well you found a skull and the blood of the black stream but the council took over from the column and ooh shiny zone and but we have AE so we can PVP and then the column came back and time travel and rikti invaded so then we have menders and can I have a cookie and emperor cole called the well a meaniehead...."
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
It should be noted that the raids don't play anything like the raids we currently have in game. The raids play like a task force where you change missions but never change maps. The only difference is that more than one full team can be on it.
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Look, I have nothing against raids per se. Some people obviously want them, it's something new, bring on the raids. I'll do them. I only have a problem when raids are all we get.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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right. and that's fine. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
But you're saying "They're jumping around like crazy monkies with these storylines" while people are complaining, at the same time, that they're focusing too much on Praetoria and doing that storyline. Can both be true?
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But... unlocking incarnates and all that that brings for the first several slots IS TIED to THIS ONE STORY (that, to be fair, even by wacky comic standards makes no sense). that is the complaint. We expected/wanted/hoped for better. and we are disappointed at being disappointed. That's it.
It isn't the arc. its the arc tied to the mechanic. That is not how CoX has worked. It feels off. And the idea that we don't expect that to change. That's the discussion point, and the offering of ideas of how we think both sides could have been happy - if only - and I think Bill's right on why it didn't happen, and that is probably means 2012 (at best) before a pass is made to do anything about that gap.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
But judging what they're doing now, I would say they're trying to finish up Praetoria, which, by the way, was the main attraction of Going Rogue, so all this new stuff is tacked on to the GR imprint, which means they're trying to provide more content for the brought box. If they jumped on to something else, that would be....annoying. Especially if they didn't finish up the Praetorian content.
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What is being said in a nutshell:
- advance more than one story constistently
- feel free to use alternate issues to do that rather than fire hose it
- decouple the mechanic
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Look, I have nothing against raids per se. Some people obviously want them, it's something new, bring on the raids. I'll do them. I only have a problem when raids are all we get.
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City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
Quote:
You really don't get it, do you. That much is becoming painfully obvious. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
My point is not liking Praetoria is one thing, but they're undertaking finishing up the storyline. Whether you like it or not is irrelavent.
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| But you're saying "They're jumping around like crazy monkies with these storylines" while people are complaining, at the same time, that they're focusing too much on Praetoria and doing that storyline. Can both be true? Maybe. Historically maybe. But judging what they're doing now, I would say they're trying to finish up Praetoria, which, by the way, was the main attraction of Going Rogue, so all this new stuff is tacked on to the GR imprint, which means they're trying to provide more content for the brought box. If they jumped on to something else, that would be....annoying. Especially if they didn't finish up the Praetorian content. |
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| If I'm simplifying it's only because you guys are too. You're only pointing out the things that you don't approve of while ignoring some of the more salient points that lend itself to the otherside. You're complaining equally that you're tired of Praetoria content and want them to focus on other things, |
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| while at the same time saying, you want them to stop jumping around from storyline to storyline and focus on completing an arc. |
Re-read what I just typed until you get it. Now, WHY would I not be jumping up and down about *yet another* new system, AND the way they're cramming everything to do with it into a storyline it doesn't really fit in?
Call Cole an Incarnate - ok, fine, THAT far it fits. Statesman is, Reichsman is, etc. We know they have around the same level of power and that would be an explanation for it. And it's reason to use Incarnate level powers.
HOWEVER, the whole "The well is insane?" Cramming the whole Incarnate system into this one storyline, when we've got a hanging one in Cimerora (exploring the "lost origin" - y'know, incarnate...) that it actually FITS PROPERLY with and could branch off to *other* storylines? THAT I have a problem with. It's Statesman's "Doctor whatsisface power proliferation" cutscene speech at the end of the VEAT arcs all over again. There's no particular reason for the Menders to be involved - they're trying to slop some Incarnate onto the "Whenever it actually gets here sometime maybe Storm" and see if it sticks.
It's a disservice to the system and to the multiple storylines, and given our devs past history with other storylines and systems, it'll be starting to wither on the vine very shortly, Dev promises to "keep expanding it" notwithstanding.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
You really don't get it, do you. That much is becoming painfully obvious.
Yes, historically they don't. Historically - more recently, at least - they've also had this REALLY bad habit of shoehorning things in that don't fit together and having the storylines suffer overall because of it. Show me where I said "I'm tired of Praetorian content." I can point to myself saying I get them FINALLY dealing with the invasion, as well as complaining about the shoddy way the 40-50 (45-50, really) arc was rewritten and how it turns you into a third-string wannabe who needs help. Not just storylines. Entire SYSTEMS. PVP isn't "an arc." Ignoring AE (remember "We'll select Dev Choice arcs and those will free up your slots?") isn't "An arc." Ignoring bases isn't "An arc." Re-read what I just typed until you get it. Now, WHY would I not be jumping up and down about *yet another* new system, AND the way they're cramming everything to do with it into a storyline it doesn't really fit in? Call Cole an Incarnate - ok, fine, THAT far it fits. Statesman is, Reichsman is, etc. We know they have around the same level of power and that would be an explanation for it. And it's reason to use Incarnate level powers. HOWEVER, the whole "The well is insane?" Cramming the whole Incarnate system into this one storyline, when we've got a hanging one in Cimerora (exploring the "lost origin" - y'know, incarnate...) that it actually FITS PROPERLY with and could branch off to *other* storylines? THAT I have a problem with. It's Statesman's "Doctor whatsisface power proliferation" cutscene speech at the end of the VEAT arcs all over again. There's no particular reason for the Menders to be involved - they're trying to slop some Incarnate onto the "Whenever it actually gets here sometime maybe Storm" and see if it sticks. It's a disservice to the system and to the multiple storylines, and given our devs past history with other storylines and systems, it'll be starting to wither on the vine very shortly, Dev promises to "keep expanding it" notwithstanding. |
Yeah, I get that. And I want them to add more content that allows you to progress the system that's not tied to Praetoria. I also believe that eventually they'll add it. Just not at launch, because that would likely delay it even more. If we get to the end of the storyline and the end of rolling out the system and the next thing they do is abandon it, absolutely lets revisit this arguement. In the meantime, however, they're not done rolling out the system. And in this game a system of level less progression is fairly unprecedented. The systems you just cited, save for AE, aren't tied to character progression.
And the system of moral side switching is tied to only one mechanic - the tip mechanic.
They're rolling out a system bit by bit and when we get to the end, if they indicate that they're done, they're not going to talk about the coming storm or rularru or whatever, then you will have had a point. Would I like them to add more content? Absolutely. I would love for them to roll out non-TF incarnate content to earn things like threads that aren't tied to the new multi-team trials (I am not calling them raids. They're not raids. Hamidon and MSR are raids. The closest analog to these in game is the CoP. These are multi-team TF's). But I understand that we're only about halfway through the system as is currently implemented.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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It should be noted that I don't actually disagree with you. But I also understand the need from an allocation of resources to tie them together, at least at initial roll out. The system isn't done, and we're currently seeing only the first implementation of said mechanic. I will be very unhappy if, after we're done rolling it out, they simply say "Okay, we're done. Time to do something else and not revisit incarnate progression!"|
Originally Posted by Chyll
right. and that's fine.
But... unlocking incarnates and all that that brings for the first several slots IS TIED to THIS ONE STORY (that, to be fair, even by wacky comic standards makes no sense). that is the complaint. We expected/wanted/hoped for better. and we are disappointed at being disappointed. That's it. It isn't the arc. its the arc tied to the mechanic. That is not how CoX has worked. It feels off. And the idea that we don't expect that to change. That's the discussion point, and the offering of ideas of how we think both sides could have been happy - if only - and I think Bill's right on why it didn't happen, and that is probably means 2012 (at best) before a pass is made to do anything about that gap. yes, agreed. but does it have to be multiple issues in a row and TIED to a major new game mechanic. What is being said in a nutshell:
and now that its established that way... I don't see not getting anything but raids for this in the future. I hope I'm wrong. but my confidence is shot given history |
If they do that I would complain. But we *just* started the incarnate system, and it's a system that, in game, there is no real precedent for.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
And just so that Memphis Bill can't accuse me of not being able to read *yet* again, I want them to add stuff for bases, I want them to revisit AE. I want them to be able to do so and still work on things like an Incarnate System since it's been asked for for a very very very long time.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
Quote:
(semantics. The devs call their extended single missions raids, so I call them raids.)|
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
Yeah, I get that. And I want them to add more content that allows you to progress the system that's not tied to Praetoria. I also believe that eventually they'll add it. Just not at launch, because that would likely delay it even more. If we get to the end of the storyline and the end of rolling out the system and the next thing they do is abandon it, absolutely lets revisit this arguement. In the meantime, however, they're not done rolling out the system. And in this game a system of level less progression is fairly unprecedented. The systems you just cited, save for AE, aren't tied to character progression.
They're rolling out a system bit by bit and when we get to the end, if they indicate that they're done, they're not going to talk about the coming storm or rularru or whatever, then you will have had a point. Would I like them to add more content? Absolutely. I would love for them to roll out non-TF incarnate content to earn things like threads that aren't tied to the new multi-team trials (I am not calling them raids. They're not raids. Hamidon and MSR are raids. The closest analog to these in game is the CoP. These are multi-team TF's). But I understand that we're only about halfway through the system as is currently implemented. |
Regardless, the issue is right there (emphasis added). Let's randomly say they do Rularru next.
Will the new shiny Rularru raids provide a new option/path to open the already released slots, or will it offer entirely new paths to unlock the next wave of incarnate powers?
I suspect the latter. initial incarnates content will always be limited to the Praetorian war as they "chase the shiny" (TM M_B). that's a big part of my issue/fear/disappointment.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
And the system of moral side switching is tied to only one mechanic - the tip mechanic.
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City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
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Depending on who you ask, neither is the Incarnate system. I've had THAT argument (that "no, this isn't really character progression!") thrown in my face as well. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
Yeah, I get that. And I want them to add more content that allows you to progress the system that's not tied to Praetoria. I also believe that eventually they'll add it. Just not at launch, because that would likely delay it even more. If we get to the end of the storyline and the end of rolling out the system and the next thing they do is abandon it, absolutely lets revisit this arguement. In the meantime, however, they're not done rolling out the system. And in this game a system of level less progression is fairly unprecedented. The systems you just cited, save for AE, aren't tied to character progression.
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At what point does this get "revisited?" The exact same promises of "revisiting" have been made for *all those other systems.* Issue 13, the big PVP change (another major system) - when does that get revisited? It WAS supposed to be. Bases - raiding was turned off (as was pathing) because they couldnt' make it work, for starters, but that was supposed to be "revisited." It hasn't been. Bases in general were a major carrot to get people to buy COV (since "just COH" wouldn't get them.) That was issue SIX. We're hitting issue 20. FOURTEEN ISSUES. Most of the game's life. When are they getting "revisited?" When are the devs looking into rating system problems, or restarting marking Dev Choice arcs that Aeon himself doesn't sponsor?
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| They're rolling out a system bit by bit and when we get to the end, if they indicate that they're done, they're not going to talk about the coming storm or rularru or whatever, then you will have had a point. |
The devs leave things hanging. Not to "revisit later," but because they're no longer the new shiny. They're now "old content" and they want to make "new content."
I used to defend decisions with the same hopefulness and belief you're showing now. You'll note the extreme cynicism and distrust I have now. There's a reason for it - I've had that hopefulness, the belief the devs "will make it right/finish it," broken again and again. That's not a good sign for a developer.
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Mostly agreed. I actually suspect that since they said they want to eventually add more lore pets and they can add more powers to existing incarnate trees, that the newer raids will both provide either more incarnate trees, or more incarnate options. From a game play design standpoint once the core 10 slots are done it will be easier to add stuff rather than add more slots.
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Originally Posted by Chyll
(semantics. The devs call their extended single missions raids, so I call them raids.)
Regardless, the issue is right there (emphasis added). Let's randomly say they do Rularru next. Will the new shiny Rularru raids provide a new option/path to open the already released slots, or will it offer entirely new paths to unlock the next wave of incarnate powers? I suspect the latter. initial incarnates content will always be limited to the Praetorian war as they "chase the shiny" (TM M_B). that's a big part of my issue/fear/disappointment. true enough, but I wouldn't call that a core game play mechanic. |
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
(and rightly so IMO).
I wouldn't find that fulfilling in the slightest to be honest. It'd be "in tune with existing lore" alright, basically a rehash of i10.