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Fixed.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
the Coming Storm will involve rains
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The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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Okay, that's your opinion. Why don't we wait and see how everyone else likes it. The majority of players don't play on the test servers and the majority of players don't visit the forums.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
I WANT AN END GAME BUT I DON'T LIKE THE DIRECTION THE END GAME IS TAKING.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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What isn't answered, is what DO you want for end game conent?|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
And so it begins. The influx of people who missed the part about "I wanted an endgame" and completely miss the point of yet another post expressing dissatisfaction with the direction the endgame is taking. Am I going to have to resort to obnoxious multicolored giant font for people to get it?
I WANT AN END GAME BUT I DON'T LIKE THE DIRECTION THE END GAME IS TAKING. And CoV's Project: Destiny was also a bad storyline. It was a hamfisted attempt to explain why a Chaotic Evil cliche wanted your character around, and should not be imitated or held up as a good example of anything. |
Just high level TFs? Well we had that.
If it's just because of the story you don't like, use your imagination and imagine it from a different angle.
I think the devs were in a no win situation with it. While they could of just added the content, and let the player decide how the character came to access these abilities, you had this other group of players who wanted everything to be delivered in story fashion, which imo was a mistake, as they put in a story for power proliferation, auction houses, enhancements, badges...ect...ect...
Apex & Tin Mage are awesome TFs. But could of just been as awesome TFs without the Ramsiel arc, which is what people wanted. A story arc to become incarnates rather than "What hey? I just run these TFs, pick a reward and become an incarnate?"
They should of realized that mistake when they suggested it.
Personally, I was okay with, "Run an ITF (or whatever TF), get the reward and then craft my incarnate ability"
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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If you find Tyrant, lolworthy, can't you still go fight those level 50 enemies?
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
No, it really doesn't, because if you thought Nemesis was lolworthy you could go fight Rikti, and if you thought they were lolworthy you could fight Recluse. If you think Tyrant is lolworthy (which he is, from a lore standpoint, and I don't care how many superawesomecosmicpowersofkilleverything they give him, he will always be evil goatee Statesman) you have no choice but to suck it up or give up on the endgame.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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He isn't - he's one of the best supervillains they've made so far |
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
If you think Tyrant is lolworthy
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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That's the sad part.
| He isn't - he's one of the best supervillains they've made so far |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Jack Kirby would like a word with you about The FF and Thor, The New Gods, etc. etc. etc. which ran for numerous issues if not years. Just because few today can write at that level doesn't mean it can't be done.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
The end-game of our beloved comic book super heroes winds up in a hand waving depowerment because they got too powerful or reboots. Lots and lots of reboots.
That should say something about how hard it is to write incarnate level powered beings in a story, let alone translating that into MMORPG mechanics. |
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So, if something introduced 7 years into the game's life is the point of getting to 50, what was the point before? |
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
I disagree. This is compulsory. This is the point of getting to 50.
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It's not compulsory, it is just as optional as everything else. The only thing that makes it required is your feeling that you HAVE to do it. You can keep doing whatever you were doing before this and the game will just have to deal with it, because it can't force you to do anything. YOU are the one sitting behind the keyboard deciding what you're doing, not the devs.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Your reasoning is flawed. Those 2 TFs are part of the end game. So if you chose not to run the end game (including those 2 TFs) your excluding yourself from them.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
I disagree. This is compulsory. This is the point of getting to 50.
Previously you could cherry pick. If it was Inventions or Vanguard Merits or anything else the playing field was level. If I decline the end game content then I'm immediately excluded from 2 TFs immediately, plust all the other content. To say "don't do it" is facile and unworthy of your intellect. |
But seriously, an arc that takes 20 minutes and running on average 2 level 50 TFs for Incarnate stuff is exclusionary?!?
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
There are good and bad things with the end game. The one thing that I don't understand is why is all the Praetorian stuff Heroes or Co-Op, none of it involves just villains.
A nice Arc of SF about the Villains luring in the Praetorians into a "truce of some sort" only to betray and steal there "Items of Power" whether they be magical or technological.
I do think the end game should incorporate more than just the Praetorians.
One other point I'd like to make all Judgement Powers should be made to work with weapons and/or shield (an alt animation choice). This whay they power can come from our items and not us. We can remain some what "Natural Human" and just have a powerful item.
@Blood Beret(2)Twitter
I am a bad speeler, use poorer grammar, and am a frequent typoist.
MA ArcID: 1197
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. Winston Churchill
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This is my take on most of the displeasure with the end game, along with the fact that so many don't want to step back realize that Paragon is just getting started with it. New content and what not that some people want to go along with the Incarnate stuff takes time.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
So, if something introduced 7 years into the game's life is the point of getting to 50, what was the point before?
It's not compulsory, it is just as optional as everything else. The only thing that makes it required is your feeling that you HAVE to do it. You can keep doing whatever you were doing before this and the game will just have to deal with it, because it can't force you to do anything. YOU are the one sitting behind the keyboard deciding what you're doing, not the devs. |
Have some patience.
Additionally, as I have mentioned elsewhere, personally, I cannot see a reason to have so much angst over these things. If the game is fun, then play it, if not, don't.
Bringing all of this angst and over analyzing into a video game is just waste of personal energy, IMO, and very detrimental to ones happiness.
Not enjoying a new extension of the mechanics and story is a far cry from having an addition to the game ruining the rest of the game, IMO.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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Yes, and so is paying a monthly subscription while the devs lavish all their time and attention on an endgame you won't/can't play.|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
Bringing all of this angst and over analyzing into a video game is just waste of personal energy, IMO, and very detrimental to ones happiness.
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That's the problem with the "if you don't like it, just don't play it" argument - you're suggesting that people either turn a blind eye to the amount of dev time that the endgame is going to consume over the next half a year or more while continuing to pay for it, or quit. P2Ps should aim to have something for everyone on a reasonably regular basis, because issues aren't 'free' - they're paid for by our monthly subs. We're already being microtransacted for 90% of all new costume pieces, so is it really too much to ask for something that isn't endgame/team related in I20? Or to be concerned at the prospect of I21 being more raids? How about I22?
WoW's updates, other than the major paid for expansions, are all-endgame, all-the-time, but anyone who plays WoW knows that going in. That's never been the CoH model, and the prospect of multiple issues dedicated to more giant incarnate raids is one that's not going to go down well with some of the playerbase. Nor will they shut up about it, unless, like PVP, the argument dies down because the people who cared the most just said to hell with it and quit eventually.
I winced every time post-I14 I saw a bunch of patch notes with another huge list of AE changes/fixes/nerfs as god knows how much dev time was wasted trying to make that disaster viable. I hope the same doesn't happen with the Raid system, but sometimes I fear it will.
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So, you're just paying for the end game and getting all the stuff that existed before it for free now? |
Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
Yes, and so is paying a monthly subscription while the devs lavish all their time and attention on an endgame you won't/can't play.
That's the problem with the "if you don't like it, just don't play it" argument - you're suggesting that people either turn a blind eye to the amount of dev time that the endgame is going to consume over the next half a year or more while continuing to pay for it, or quit. |
You're paying for access to the game. That's all. You're not paying for end game content. You're not paying for badges. You're not paying for PvP, Task Forces, IOs or any other one thing the game has to offer. You're paying for the whole package. Even the parts you are not interested in.
You're not suddenly losing something because the end game exists, everything you spent your time doing before is still exactly where it's always been.
At any given point in the game's history, the devs spent time and energy on something a subset of the playerbase was not interested in. When they were working on PvP, a large percentage of the population didn't like it because they didn't PvP. When they spent time developing VEATs, there were people that didn't like it because they had no intention of playing them. Any number of things the devs spent their time on pissed someone off because it was something they weren't interested in.
It has been happening over and over again, and people constantly forget that when the devs spent time on something they liked, it was time spent on something someone else didn't like. When they please you, they piss someone else off. When they piss you off, they please someone else. Pleasing everyone at once is flat out impossible.
The truth of the matter is: People are selfish. If time is spent on something they don't like or aren't interested in, they consider that to be time that was wasted. Even though the time spent pleased someone else, they don't care, because it wasn't for THEM.
I'm no exception to that. The difference between me and a lot of the people complaining is that I realize the devs will get to what I want eventually, and that I'm not the only person they have to try and please.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Originally Posted by Slax
Your reasoning is flawed. Those 2 TFs are part of the end game. So if you chose not to run the end game (including those 2 TFs) your excluding yourself from them.
But seriously, an arc that takes 20 minutes and running on average 2 level 50 TFs for Incarnate stuff is exclusionary?!? |
Absolutely. Because that's not all that is coming. We've been told for a long time that there is a lot of end game content coming to the game and that seems to be evidenced by what's coming from I20 and beyond. If I don't take part in the Incarnate arc I'm excluding myself from the majority of content that's slated to come in the future.
Thelonious Monk
I'm in the same boat with the OP, and I've posted a few times now similarly.
I was excited for Incarnate stuff - eager even.
But, now that it is here it feels wrong to me. It doesn't feel like CoX... and sadly is coloring my entire play experience from level 1 on a newbie, to my level 40 striving to win the good fight, and my level shifted incarnates. It is there, like a high pitched tone on a bad phone line. Logic is out the window, no matter how I've tried to get it back. At this point it is a gut response to what has been done so far...
Since it hit, I've played less and less. At this point I haven't even logged in for nearly three weeks.
No, I cannot say what I would do different. I like the structure (well, Lore is kinda silly) of the implementation. But is is linear, it doesn't allow any sort of choice/freedom. The game mechanic, IMO, has been poorly supported by story and narrative structure. And this grates and disappoints terribly.
It has actually gotten worse as I've filled my spare game time with Mass Effect and Dragon Age - shining examples of moving down the same path with choices.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
Here's my take: I like the Incarnate content, but I think it's too particular in labelling itself "Incarnate content." And, for that matter, the source of our new powers as "The Well of the Furies." We've had these Origins of Power arcs for issues and issues. We know that all the Origins draw from a single original source. The real bombshell of the new content, far as I see it, is that those Incarnates who we thought were a sixth Origin actually draw from the Origin of Power itself (or OoP, making we Incarnates 'Oopses',) and that the silly old Well of the Furies as actually a wellspring of that same source of all superness.
Correct me if I'm reading reading the signs wrong, and scold me if I'm being dreary and obvious, but I think it makes me feel less like we're abandoning our Origin for a new one, and a compulsory story which comes with it. Rather, we're simply returning to the very roots of our powers, giving us an edge against our old foes, and matching new ones literally more powerful than any we've met before. Without the silly labels, the concept seems more reasonable. We are still saddled with only one way to -gain- this new power - this suspicious new goofy-looking Mender. But, we know alternate paths are on the way. We only know of the Praetorian trials so far, but if there aren't more on the drawing board, I'll eat my least-favourite hat.
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Bolded the key words in that sentence. |
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
If I don't take part in the Incarnate arc I'm excluding myself from the majority of content that's slated to come in the future.
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You're excluding YOURSELF. You even said it yourself. That means if you are unhappy about that exclusion, you have no one to blame for it but yourself.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Each of those were the focus of a specific Issue (bar Nemesis iirc, but - lolnemesis/oro/storm). That's the revolving door, that content is still there; that content is still valid. You can still go and do it. You are removing yourself from the latest content you do not like, this is personal choice.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
No, it really doesn't, because if you thought Nemesis was lolworthy you could go fight Rikti, and if you thought they were lolworthy you could fight Recluse. If you think Tyrant is lolworthy (which he is, from a lore standpoint, and I don't care how many superawesomecosmicpowersofkilleverything they give him, he will always be evil goatee Statesman) you have no choice but to suck it up or give up on the endgame.
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What's your stance on the Cathedral of Pain? Running it, not running it, love it, hate it?
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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
Absolutely. Because that's not all that is coming. We've been told for a long time that there is a lot of end game content coming to the game and that seems to be evidenced by what's coming from I20 and beyond. If I don't take part in the Incarnate arc I'm excluding myself from the majority of content that's slated to come in the future.
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What you're saying is a bit like someone complaining that they can't do any of the task forces because they point blank refuse to team or use a supergroup, period. Technically they have a point about exclusionary content, but the exclusion is purely self imposed.
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NEW GODS ran for eight issues, so maybe not the best example to pick.</pedantry>|
Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5
Jack Kirby would like a word with you about The FF and Thor, The New Gods, etc. etc. etc. which ran for numerous issues if not years. Just because few today can write at that level doesn't mean it can't be done.
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I'm with Bill on this one, to a degree; once you've thrown the deity-level stuff into the mix, what do you do afterwards -- because unlike comics, where the reboot switch can be hit and there are no mechanical limits to what can be achieved, short of page size -- "What do we do after this?" is a pretty key question for MMO developers.
"This all-powerful god-villain is... 15% larger than the last one!"
Cancelled in Three - MA ID #34608. Please play and comment! Top 10 placing in Projectionist's MA contest!
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My MMO subscriptions are justified by two things - a) is the game good? Yes it is, and b) does the game add new stuff, for 'free', that interests me? To which the answer, right now, is no.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
So, you're just paying for the end game and getting all the stuff that existed before it for free now?
You're paying for access to the game. That's all. You're not paying for end game content. You're not paying for badges. You're not paying for PvP, Task Forces, IOs or any other one thing the game has to offer. You're paying for the whole package. Even the parts you are not interested in. You're not suddenly losing something because the end game exists, everything you spent your time doing before is still exactly where it's always been. |
It's not the first time, and no doubt won't be the last, but Incarnates have now eaten up 2 issues in a row (I19 and I20) and I can't imagine that it won't be a sizeable part of I21 and I22 at least.
You talk about time spent on PVP, or VEATS. That doesn't apply here - because neither of those got more than one issue of dev time. Hell, City of Villains only got I6 and I7 before the focus shifted back heroside. Yet now we're on two issues and counting of big team content that focuses on a single entirely linear storyline...
If I wanted that I'd pay for a single player game. Once.
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You know there are 2 level 20-40 TFs coming in i20. That's non-incarnate content.|
Originally Posted by NightshadeLegree
My MMO subscriptions are justified by two things - a) is the game good? Yes it is, and b) does the game add new stuff, for 'free', that interests me? To which the answer, right now, is no.
It's not the first time, and no doubt won't be the last, but Incarnates have now eaten up 2 issues in a row (I19 and I20) and I can't imagine that it won't be a sizeable part of I21 and I22 at least. You talk about time spent on PVP, or VEATS. That doesn't apply here - because neither of those got more than one issue of dev time. Hell, City of Villains only got I6 and I7 before the focus shifted back heroside. Yet now we're on two issues and counting of big team content that focuses on a single entirely linear storyline... If I wanted that I'd pay for a single player game. Once. |
So, does Incarnates count as as eating up i20?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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The non-Preatorian content is not a valid way to advance mechanically beyond the Alpha slot.|
Originally Posted by Extremus
Each of those were the focus of a specific Issue (bar Nemesis iirc, but - lolnemesis/oro/storm). That's the revolving door, that content is still there; that content is still valid. You can still go and do it. You are removing yourself from the latest content you do not like, this is personal choice.
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| What's your stance on the Cathedral of Pain? Running it, not running it, love it, hate it? |
I don't have a problem with stuff being hard and I like different mechanics. I like the sewer trial and the Battle Maiden fight, mechanically. The CoP just happens to use a mechanic I don't like.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
You know there are 2 level 20-40 TFs coming in i20. That's non-incarnate content.
So, does Incarnates count as as eating up i20? |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Bolded the key words in that sentence.
You're excluding YOURSELF. You even said it yourself. That means if you are unhappy about that exclusion, you have no one to blame for it but yourself. |
I've not denied that. My point is that the more I learn of the Incarnate story the less I like it and that leaves me feeling conflicted and more than a bit worried.
I'm open to the possibility that the story will pick up and improve - I've not tried the stuff on test yet because I tend not to enjoy testing what is a done deal. I'd rather experience it when it's fresh and new.
However the evidence so far leads me to suspect that I probably won't enjoy the continuing plot and that just makes me sad because the Incarnate stuff is the first content I've taken a dislike to.
Thelonious Monk
Really, you have about 4 or 5 options in regards to dealing with the Incarnate content.
1) Dive into it and play what is offered as you see fit.
2) Completely ignore it and keep doing the things you've been enjoying so far.
3) Play a little bit of it and continue doing other stuff as well.
4) Take a break or quit altogether because you don't like it.
5) Come to the forums and complain bitterly to anyone who will listen that the devs are wasting their time and ruining the game, because they decided to focus on something you don't personally like.
Judging by the content of recent threads on the subject, it's pretty clear what the most popular reaction has been so far....
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World