Auto Archetype and Powerset Bonuses
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-02-26 24:39 in Suggestions and Ideas
Agreed! People who wield guns should be immune to bullets! Just like real life!
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while it would make more logical sense to have like a small 20% resist to the dmg type that you deal, there is no way ever that we would get high ranged def and resist
this is a game that is to avoid the tank mage, sure high def can be gotten to through IO slotting, but you will never have the resists of a tank/brute/ect
i say /signed but highly unlikely to getting a small resist bonus to your primary dmg type, but extremely /unsigned to tank mages
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LOL. /this. |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Agreed! People who wield guns should be immune to bullets! Just like real life!
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No thanks. 7 years of builds I play because "I want to." Should melee sets (y'know, tanks, scrappers, brutes) get melee defense - which people already tend to build decent defense for anyway? The min/maxers would just aim for playing Smashing/Lethal sets to get yet another leg up on their numbers.
No to retrofitting this sort of thing 7 years in.
With the others, /unsigned. This works for the min/maxers and makes little sense to add now.
It would also favor sets much more than others. Just how many rad using mobs are there compared to S/L mobs? Or ice vs. energy? How about my grav controller vs. a fire controller? Yes, mobs exist that use fire and ice and gravity (like LB wardens), but certain sets would see little benefit whereas others get a bonuses most of the time.
And how do you balance? Should my ice/ corruptor get more res than my /ice def? There are both using ice blasts, so they should be the same? Where do ice blasters fit in?
If you are going to use that logic then you would also have to cause all AoE attacks to hit other players in the radius as well. Would make teaming with a fire armor tank, brute, scrapper quite dangerous.
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that would work, it would be the same on corruptors, defenders ETC. what ever damage type you deal you automatically get 20% resist to that damage off the top.| while it would make more logical sense to have like a small 20% resist to the dmg type that you deal |
makes sense they wouldn't be tank mages, even for doms and blasters (2 attack sets) you are talking a max of 2 stats with a res bonus, they will still be squishy elsewhere.
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| Agreed! People who wield guns should be immune to bullets! Just like real life! |
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| It would also favor sets much more than others. Just how many rad using mobs are there compared to S/L mobs? Or ice vs. energy? How about my grav controller vs. a fire controller? Yes, mobs exist that use fire and ice and gravity (like LB wardens), but certain sets would see little benefit whereas others get a bonuses most of the time. |
fair is fair, you are what you are, if you wanna use your advantage you'll have to stick to a map that uses that damage type (thats what maxes it a game)
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| And how do you balance? Should my ice/ corruptor get more res than my /ice def? There are both using ice blasts, so they should be the same? Where do ice blasters fit in? |
ice ice would get 40% res to cold. ice fire would get 20% to both.
thats the balance.\
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| If you are going to use that logic then you would also have to cause all AoE attacks to hit other players in the radius as well. Would make teaming with a fire armor tank, brute, scrapper quite dangerous. |
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Since when??? My friend's fire tank goes to whatever map the mission is set for. My ice tank fights whatever mobs on the map. My WP brute fights whatever mobs on the map. In neary 7 years, I have never once heard a tank say they would not go on a map because the right element mobs weren't on the map. Total exaggeration you are making. |
Originally Posted by JoshexDirad
even fire tanks seem to stick to fire damage type maps, in other maps even the best have died.
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| fair is fair, you are what you are, if you wanna use your advantage you'll have to stick to a map that uses that damage type (thats what maxes it a game) |
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if you mean the difference between a ice/ice blaster and a ice flame blaster: ice ice would get 40% res to cold. ice fire would get 20% to both. thats the balance.\ |
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Not all the time. You've got fox fire, will o' wisp fire, soul/spirit fire, hellfire, black/dark fire, divine/holy fire. Some are hot, others don't burn a thing except what they're intended to harm, and I'm sure someone creative enough could think up a cool concept for some neat fire types.|
Originally Posted by JoshexDirad
fire is fire correct? yes, fire is always fire some may be hotter but still fire itself is pretty hot.
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Too bad you really can't distinguish them in any way except cosmetically. Well, technically, we have hellfire and it does fire/toxic damage. I bet divine flames would be something like fire/energy damage. Will o' wisp might be fire/psi.
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sigh you misunderstand.. sheesh who agroed this forum into rejection rage?.. as of right now, all archetypes go on all maps, with or without teams, JUST they may die more on certain maps than others. the same thing will happen with slight powerset based damage type res boosts.
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
Since when??? My friend's fire tank goes to whatever map the mission is set for. My ice tank fights whatever mobs on the map. My WP brute fights whatever mobs on the map. In neary 7 years, I have never once heard a tank say they would not go on a map because the right element mobs weren't on the map. Total exaggeration you are making.
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
So a stone tank should say "sorry, wrong type of mobs in that STF or ITF, I can't join it." A DA tank should say "sorry, can't join that LGTF, wrong type of mobs." Riiiiiiiiiiiiight....
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
I mean, if you read, that for example, my corruptor's PRIMARY is ice, but my defender's SECONDARY is ice. How is they get the same resistance since one is primary and the other secondary? With AT modifiers, how does a blaster fit in? Don't they do more damage? Shouldn't their "ice" be better than a defenders, therefore, more res?
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That's what they do now - at least that's the best strategy for a Blaster.|
Originally Posted by JoshexDirad
not that they can;t join it, thats not what I'm saying at all, if a player is weak to a damage type they just ahve to focus on taking out that damage dealer first in every pack.
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But you haven't really addressed the imbalance between the damage types as among the various enemies, especially at low levels. Hellion bosses do fire damage, Skull Bone Daddies do negative energy damage. What lowbie enemiy types do Radiation or Cold?
Your scheme would make starting a Fire Tank or Blaster way harder than starting an Ice Tank or Radiation Blaster or Defender. Not my idea of fun at all.
OP, is there any reason why to implement this other than some people might think it's a cool idea?
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
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it is not, NOT supposed to make the game easy for everyone at every level, it's just supposed to give them res to their own damage type, cause it makes sense. also, maybe this effect should be strictly PVE.|
Originally Posted by Ad Astra
That's what they do now - at least that's the best strategy for a Blaster.
But you haven't really addressed the imbalance between the damage types as among the various enemies, especially at low levels. Hellion bosses do fire damage, Skull Bone Daddies do negative energy damage. What lowbie enemiy types do Radiation or Cold? Your scheme would make starting a Fire Tank or Blaster way harder than starting an Ice Tank or Radiation Blaster or Defender. Not my idea of fun at all. OP, is there any reason why to implement this other than some people might think it's a cool idea? |
it shouldn't make squishies tank, thats not the goal here, the goal is for powers to make sense. if you are shooting fire off your body or even with equipment you should have some sort of resistance in place to keep yourself from being damaged.
I personally don't think of it as a cool/not cool idea, I think of it as common sense.
it will make some sets easier at certain levels, yes, but look at it now, already some sets are easier than others. all sets are not created equal.
Two words you need to learn the meaning of;
Game Balance
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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If I'm walking around with a flamethrower strapped to my back (bit of tech,) how am I resistant to fire? I'm not. If that blows up, I'm BBQ. |
Originally Posted by JoshexDirad
it shouldn't make squishies tank, thats not the goal here, the goal is for powers to make sense. if you are shooting fire off your body or even with equipment you should have some sort of resistance in place to keep yourself from being damaged.
I personally don't think of it as a cool/not cool idea, I think of it as common sense. |
Walking around with a gun does not make me resistant to bullets. Walking around with a knife does not make me resistant to being cut. Working with radioactive substances does not make me resistant to radioactivity - I may have the equipment shielded, but that doesn't affect my *personal* resistance. Throwing an ice cube at you does not make me resistant to cold.
"Common sense?" It works for SOME character concepts (I, for instance, have a "fire elemental" - the world she came from *was* flame, so yeah, for her it would make sense to resist fire - and if I want to pursue that, I can do so via the IO system, quite likely,) but not others. It's not universal by any means.
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This.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
If I'm walking around with a flamethrower strapped to my back (bit of tech,) how am I resistant to fire? I'm not. If that blows up, I'm BBQ.
Walking around with a gun does not make me resistant to bullets. Walking around with a knife does not make me resistant to being cut. Working with radioactive substances does not make me resistant to radioactivity - I may have the equipment shielded, but that doesn't affect my *personal* resistance. Throwing an ice cube at you does not make me resistant to cold. "Common sense?" It works for SOME character concepts (I, for instance, have a "fire elemental" - the world she came from *was* flame, so yeah, for her it would make sense to resist fire - and if I want to pursue that, I can do so via the IO system, quite likely,) but not others. It's not universal by any means. |
/unsigned
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Under your system as listed in the OP, my highest Blaster would effectively become a tank, because Lethal damage is the most common type, and he tends to, you know, stay at range thanks to Boost Range.| it shouldn't make squishies tank |
20% is also not a "small" bonus.
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
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Honestly, the point at which the fire started shooting of the character's body was the point at which common sense had already left the building.|
Originally Posted by JoshexDirad
it shouldn't make squishies tank, thats not the goal here, the goal is for powers to make sense. if you are shooting fire off your body or even with equipment you should have some sort of resistance in place to keep yourself from being damaged.
I personally don't think of it as a cool/not cool idea, I think of it as common sense. |
Maybe you'd be happier looking at it this way: my magic-origin Fire Blaster already has 100% immunity to the fire spells she casts. Fireball a bad guy in the face at a distance of five feet? 100% immune. Stand in the middle of Rain of Fire? 100% immune. Awesome!
p.s. I would be quite sad if she had to take 80% damage from Nova.
Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
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Protective Gear would be the secondary, then. Not the primary. Vests aren't guns. They aren't part of being able to use a gun.|
Originally Posted by JoshexDirad
lol, BUT it does happen, people who professionally use guns wear protective gear (bullet proof vests and such, armor against bullets smashing/ lethal)
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Another example for your original fire is fire mentality.
If Pyro from the Marvel universe was launched into the sun, he'd still die.
If Ice Man had a glacier dropped on top of him, he'd more than likely get smashed.
If Havoc stuck a fork into an electrical outlet, he'd still light up my life. (What? I hate his character)
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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Memphis_Bill is absolutely right, but the original poster has a point too. Maybe there's a way to do this so that it makes sense. It's true that people who use Rifles can wear body armour to be more resistant to bullets, but lots of people can wear body armour. My Energy/Energy blaster can wear body armour, because his magic isn't providing smashing/lethal protection. And there should be a way for someone who wants to play a fire element to gain Fire resistance. But it needs to be something player controlled, so players can take the powers that fit their concept. Like choosing powers. Then I could decide if I wanted Body Armour, a Fire Shield, or maybe Frozen Armour if I want to include some sort of Mastery over Cold into my concept.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
"Common sense?" It works for SOME character concepts (I, for instance, have a "fire elemental" - the world she came from *was* flame, so yeah, for her it would make sense to resist fire - and if I want to pursue that, I can do so via the IO system, quite likely,) but not others. It's not universal by any means.
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You mean, sort of like IO bonuses?
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Memphis_Bill is absolutely right, but the original poster has a point too. Maybe there's a way to do this so that it makes sense. It's true that people who use Rifles can wear body armour to be more resistant to bullets, but lots of people can wear body armour. My Energy/Energy blaster can wear body armour, because his magic isn't providing smashing/lethal protection. And there should be a way for someone who wants to play a fire element to gain Fire resistance. But it needs to be something player controlled, so players can take the powers that fit their concept. Like choosing powers. Then I could decide if I wanted Body Armour, a Fire Shield, or maybe Frozen Armour if I want to include some sort of Mastery over Cold into my concept.
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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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While I totally agree with your intent... I disagree with the above reasoning. There is a HUGE chasm of difference between "in-universe logic" and looking at things in a comic as if they were real life. Granted, people don't spit fire, or naturally metabolize items they touch, or shapeshift... but in a universe where those things occur, there is usually still gravity, and thermodynamics, etc. at play for everything BUT the selected action or power (and every other non-powered character). In other words, just because Cyclops can blast stuff out of his eyes does not mean that suddenly he can violate ALL of the other rules of physics.|
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
Honestly, the point at which the fire started shooting of the character's body was the point at which common sense had already left the building.
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{/mini_rant}
The idea in the OP is still a bad one. I wanted to make sure that is clear.
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Even more likely, you can give Mr Fire Elemental some Fire Resistance by picking the Fire APP.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
If I'm walking around with a flamethrower strapped to my back (bit of tech,) how am I resistant to fire? I'm not. If that blows up, I'm BBQ.
Walking around with a gun does not make me resistant to bullets. Walking around with a knife does not make me resistant to being cut. Working with radioactive substances does not make me resistant to radioactivity - I may have the equipment shielded, but that doesn't affect my *personal* resistance. Throwing an ice cube at you does not make me resistant to cold. "Common sense?" It works for SOME character concepts (I, for instance, have a "fire elemental" - the world she came from *was* flame, so yeah, for her it would make sense to resist fire - and if I want to pursue that, I can do so via the IO system, quite likely,) but not others. It's not universal by any means. |
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Memphis_Bill is absolutely right, but the original poster has a point too. Maybe there's a way to do this so that it makes sense. It's true that people who use Rifles can wear body armour to be more resistant to bullets, but lots of people can wear body armour. My Energy/Energy blaster can wear body armour, because his magic isn't providing smashing/lethal protection. And there should be a way for someone who wants to play a fire element to gain Fire resistance. But it needs to be something player controlled, so players can take the powers that fit their concept. Like choosing powers. Then I could decide if I wanted Body Armour, a Fire Shield, or maybe Frozen Armour if I want to include some sort of Mastery over Cold into my concept.
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Hmmm. What would we call these totally-not-already-in-the-game collection of powers?
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I don't know, but whatever we call them, it's gotta be epic.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Hmmm. What would we call these totally-not-already-in-the-game collection of powers?
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But surely part of the in-universe handwave about superhero powers is that it generally includes the unspoken extra details that make people able to use their powers without dying instantly? F'rex, Cyclops can blast stuff out of his eyes, but there's no need to start invoking special measures to make sure he doesn't vaporise his own eyelids whenever he blinks, or fry his own brain. That's assumed to come with the eye-blast package.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
There is a HUGE chasm of difference between "in-universe logic" and looking at things in a comic as if they were real life. Granted, people don't spit fire, or naturally metabolize items they touch, or shapeshift... but in a universe where those things occur, there is usually still gravity, and thermodynamics, etc. at play for everything BUT the selected action or power (and every other non-powered character). In other words, just because Cyclops can blast stuff out of his eyes does not mean that suddenly he can violate ALL of the other rules of physics.
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So once you've established that 'and their body makes FIRE!' is an in-universe rule that doesn't have to adhere to the laws of physics, then you don't need to worry about the logic of why said fire isn't then killing them, because that's usually considered to be automatically included.
Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
ok, fine you've made your point..
but there are certain super heros/villains that are elementals as you call them, if it comes down to raw ability to make a character sensible, maybe it should be an optional choice that you can take for free at any level with a resistance slider that can give you upto 20%
as for 100%; 90 is cap for tanks/brutes, 75 for everyone else, 20% is a big bonus already if you want to enhance it further you could probably get another 30% on it with sets.
basically it should be an option for characters.
I ended up asking myself a series of questions and found the answer remarkably laughable.
a fire blaster can wield fire right? yes
a fire blaster isn't hurt by their own fire correct? correct
fire is fire correct? yes, fire is always fire some may be hotter but still fire itself is pretty hot.
so.. then why do fire blasters trollers and dmoinators, defenders and other archytypes take fire damage just like every other squishy?
why do energy squishies take energy and negative damage just like everyother squishy?
ETC..
the answer is laughable
so why not give players a global resistance bonus (that goes up with their level) based on their power sets?
and shouldn't blasters and other ranged archs get high ranged def and res?