Speed TFs make me sad
By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2011-02-22 08:46 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I understand not wanting <50 players to feel they got the shaft; but on the flip side running these TFs excludes level 50 players from purples, shards etc. So either way someone is getting shafted. It would have just made more sense to me if they waited until I20 for the lower level TFs, or released that feature in 19.5 so even if we miss out on purples, we'd at least be getting shards. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Well, all the TFs have bonus merits involved as well as a huge chunk of XP as a bonus at the end.
They are probably spreading it out so those players who don't have a 50 at all don't feel like they're being shafted by the WST only being for Incarnate characters. The WST is for everyone, not just Incarnates, and not just for people that bought Going Rogue. Everyone gets the bonus XP and bonus merits, and Incarnates get a Notice of the Well along with it. I'm planning on running it with characters who need it for TFC, or who I want to get a little closer to 50, because that bonus xp (1/3rd, half, or 2/3rds of an entire level) is HUGE for a character in the 40s. I may or may not run it on my main, depends on how I'm feeling at the time, and being a Claws/Regen he exemps well. |
On a side note:
Now mind you I'm only speaking from the standpoint of level 50s I have. I'm aware that others don't and will not feel the same as I do.
Double XP is good but as a 50... not so much; even as Inf.
Double merits are okay, but I despise the current reward roll system and feel, for the most part rolling at level 50 is a waste of merits because you get mostly level 50 junk. I rolled through 200 merits at 35-39 and came off with a bunch of "Crap of the Hunters" and "Ghost Widow's Disgrace" at level 50. My opinion is if I put my slider at 35, the recipe I roll should be 35
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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If they didn't balance TF rewards based off your playstyle, I really wouldn't care how you play. How you play, however, directly affects the rewards I get out of Task Forces, which makes it an issue.
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Originally Posted by Demobot
I don't begrudge those who don't like speed TFs, but I do take umbrage with being told that what I'm doing is somehow wrong.
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^^^ This. People have a lot of 50s to outfit. My personal reasons:|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
7 years + many alts + many runs of the same tfs make some people not want to stop and smell the roses everytime they run a TF.
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1) The Taskforce locks the team. If someone DCs or drops, they can't be replaced. There is a bigger chance of players dropping on longer taskforces and if enough players drop, the rest of team can't complete it. Basically, wasted time for those left behind.
2) Limited play time. Some folks play this after work and only have a couple hours to play. Spending 1.5 - 2 hrs in a taskforce cuts down the other things a player could do like doing tips, leveling lowbies, etc.
3) The challenge of beating the time. A power team is an awesome sight to see when they complete the LGTF in 30 mins or less or ITF in 20 mins. Truly Incarnate.
I like a mix of TFs. Blazing speed ITFs I find dull and frustrating, but the rewards are largely speed independent:
Speed ITF - 25 mins, 2 shards + component worth 4 = 6
Fast kill most - 50 mins, 8 shards + component worth 4 = 12
On the speed runs you get less purples but more merits, depends what you're after, but the shard acquisition is similar per unit time.
Kahn, I speed ran, why ? well it's pretty dull and I'm incarnating about 25 toons so running 30 or so (you could get 2 notices if you were quick) was only possible speed running.
LGTF I ran a mixture.
Sister P I'm largely having a week off the WST, I've run 3 or 4, and a couple of SMSFs, but no shards is a huge turn off, so I tend to run them on sub 50s for the XP/merits, but the TF is deadly dull so I speed run it.
I envision running a lot of Apexes next week.
It would also be useful to know officially whether "spare" notices of the well beyond the 4 you need for your ultra rare alpha are useful anywhere else in the incarnate system or whether to just break them down for shards.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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Purples aren't a big deal. Nobody's really guaranteed purples while doing any content. Odds of someone getting a purple during a TF are pretty low anyway. Maybe one person gets one purple every dozen TFs I do.|
Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
I understand not wanting <50 players to feel they got the shaft; but on the flip side running these TFs excludes level 50 players from purples, shards etc.
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Shards are legitimate. But that's changing in i20. I would've liked it to be now, but I can deal. I did five SMSFs yesterday. Four under an hour, one 1:20. I won't be doing any repeats of course.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I would never intentionally imply that the way anyone plays the game is "wrong". I was just curious about a playstyle that seemed to miss the point of TFs. After reading so many responses, I do see the merit in running speed TFs...it just isn't my cup of tea.
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Originally Posted by Demobot
I don't begrudge those who don't like speed TFs, but I do take umbrage with being told that what I'm doing is somehow wrong.
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The point of a task force is content. You do it for fun and/or rewards. Everyone doing a task force is getting the point. There's no law saying you have to run a task force for a specific reason. I don't tend to like speedruns. But I don't think those people are missing the point. In fact they're getting to the point pretty quick because they want the reward.
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Originally Posted by Irish Fury
miss the point of TFs.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Mine either and I don't think anyone was accusing you of that... more likely talking to other posters.|
Originally Posted by Irish Fury
I would never intentionally imply that the way anyone plays the game is "wrong". I was just curious about a playstyle that seemed to miss the point of TFs. After reading so many responses, I do see the merit in running speed TFs...it just isn't my cup of tea.
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I think folks like us are going to have to get used to the fact that the vast majority of TF's run from now on, especially if it is the WST, will be a speed-run (or more likely a botched attempt at a speed run which is worse - i.e. the party that splits apart dies apart).
IMO the dev's should have followed up on the way shards are given and had the WST reward be double-xp + drops from the defeated creatures rather than give a single big batch of experience at the end. That way there is something for both styles of play (merits/hour vs xp+drops/hour) and we may have broken even on the two styles... but probably not and then there would have been no real experience reward at all.
Keep up hope though. There is the distinct possibility that as the glut of demand for Notices and badges lessens the urgent need to run speeds will also lessen... we can always hope.
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Purples may not be a big deal to you, but they are some what of a big deal to me because I enjoy outfitting them on my melee toons. It is because of the rarity of the drops that I'd rather the WST have been kept to level "50" TFs. Personally I probably won't run any of the low level WSTs but once on my rogue toon just to get the badges needed for accolades. In the meantime I'll take it as an opportunity to run ITFs.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Purples aren't a big deal. Nobody's really guaranteed purples while doing any content. Odds of someone getting a purple during a TF are pretty low anyway. Maybe one person gets one purple every dozen TFs I do.
Shards are legitimate. But that's changing in i20. I would've liked it to be now, but I can deal. I did five SMSFs yesterday. Four under an hour, one 1:20. I won't be doing any repeats of course. |
I guess I'm looking at it too much from the rewards standpoint.
50 TFs
Shards, Purple drops, Full bonuses, Alpha access
<50 TFs
No shards for now, no purple drops, less bonuses, generally longer TFs
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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Just like in personal finance and budgeting, we have to distinguish between 'needs' and 'wants'. I don't NEED the badge right now. But I do like to be actively working toward a badge at any given time. Why? I just WANT to. I feel like it.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
See, what I don't understand is your need to get that badge right now.
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| How many years have you been playing? Do you think that badge is going away next week? Have you ever actually run across someone who said, "Wow, you have that badge already? You're awesome!"? Two years from now when we both have the badge, will yours be in some way superior to mine because you got yours now and I do one extra WST a week and get mine in a year? Do you plan on quitting soon and you're trying to jam it all in now, and if so, why do you care whether you have the badge or not? |
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| Isn't 11 speed runs of a task force extremely tedious, and don't you think that tedium conveys a bad impression of the game to people who might be on your teams that are relatively new? Don't you have anything better to do in the game, or are you so jaded that your only pleasure is repeatedly speed running the same task force? |
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| Maybe that's your idea of fun, but I just can't imagine it. |
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| Don't get me wrong, I don't hate you or anything, but you're one of the veterans I mentioned above who I wish would start thinking less about getting stuff and more about how you can personally make the game more fun and exciting for others. Don't you hang out with Belle sometimes? She's the master of that. |
It's all about variety. I'm not a farmer, but I'll run a farm map on my fire/kin a couple times a month - because it's different from what I usually do. I think power-leveling is stupid, but I've done it with some characters I never intended to actually use - just because. I'm still working on getting one of every AT to level 50. I'm also working on getting all the souvenirs on my main character. I want to play every scrap of content at least once. I joined Paragon City Search And Rescue and the Mentor Project to help other players. I run a coalition of SG's, one of which is in the top 40. I'm a member in a bunch of other SG's, and an officer in several of them. I'm an op on one of Infinity's larger channels. The game has a lot of different things to do. I'm not just about speeding task forces. Eight more runs and I'm done with that. At least, for my own goals. Numerous times during the past few weeks, people on my global have asked to lead speed runs. I imagine I'll still be doing some for other people.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Maybe it's me, or the server I'm on, but I'm just not seeing this. In my experience, the ONE task force or strike force that is the WST is always 'assumed' to be a speed run for that ONE WEEK. Everything else, at any time, is assumed *NOT* to be a speed run.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Unfortunately you're a minority. Many people just assume a speed run as the default, and if you don't do it that way you're doing it wrong.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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So people should run content in ways they don't enjoy to appease you?
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
If they didn't balance TF rewards based off your playstyle, I really wouldn't care how you play. How you play, however, directly affects the rewards I get out of Task Forces, which makes it an issue.
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I think lack of communication is a major problem sometimes. When I'm forming a team, I will always state speed or kill most before I start it. That way people that don't want to do it my way are free to join another team. Makes it more enjoyable for them, but more importantly makes it more enjoyable for me. It's a win-win.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
I've been here since just after launch in 2004. I try to make it clear beforehand that I don't do "speed runs." Sometimes I forget, though, and it has caused problems. The thing that ticks me off is when no one says anything one way or another, and it's simply assumed that everyone wants to do a speed run. Sorry bub, but that is not the default, if you wanted to do that, the onus is on you to say so beforehand, and if push comes to shove, I'll leave and you're free to finish your "speed run" minus one team member. Funny thing is that that is almost the only reason I'll leave a task force. Other than that, I've always been devoted to seeing it through no matter what. A few hours and bars of debt mean nothing to me.
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What irks me is that when I get invited to a team I always ask speed run or kill most, and literally half the time the leader doesn't answer before starting the Task Force. Which sucks for them because I will quit once I discover the leader wants to run it a different way than I do.
People just need to communicate better.
On the subject of speed runs, I find them usually reserved to evening TFs, for people who're back from work and want to just get the merit grind out of the way for the evening and save the real gameplay for the weekend, or those who have an hour or so to play and want to make the most of it.
What I find though, when I'm on a TF with the regular bunch of folks I hover around, we do speed runs anyway. With IOs, Incarnates, veteren rewards and sheer amount of time learning how to play the game, we can plow through enemies on the way to the objectives and pretty much complete (sometimes +4) TFs in record time.
And we're just the roleplayers, power gamers have no excuse for 15 minute speed runs when you can do it in 40 and get inf from enemies/purple drops/incarnate shards other than time constraints IMO.
I am the Blaster, I have filled the role of Tank, Controller and Defender
Sometimes all at once.
Union EU player! Pip pip, tally ho, top hats and tea etc etc
All the following is just my opinion, not law!
Not a fan of speedruns personally. To me they are maths, a cost/benefit exercise that leaves me cold. Time invested for max gain and corners cut to minimise time spent. Its not a heroic struggle, or villainous master plan in action, its just a very un-immersive button mash. To me, its like work, and i resent feeling like that in a game i pay to "play".
I will do a speedrun occassionally, if nothing else is going on, some tfs are so well crafted that they are fun enough to be worthwhile, even if you are passing by everything in a blur.
But dont make it feel like work, please. I want to play. Just my two cents, theres room for all players i'm sure.
Part of the problem is that there are a lot of bad speedruns about. People who "speedrun" an ITF in 45 minutes with bodies scattered everywhere who's be better just steamrollering in 50-55 for way better rewards.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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On the fuller servers, I haven't witnessed that at all. They're run every hour of the day, every day of the week.
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Originally Posted by CBeet
On the subject of speed runs, I find them usually reserved to evening TFs, for people who're back from work and want to just get the merit grind out of the way for the evening and save the real gameplay for the weekend, or those who have an hour or so to play and want to make the most of it.
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I'd much prefer the devs stop balancing rewards to punish you for going fast (which also punishes me for going slow, as I get less rewards per time played.)|
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
So people should run content in ways they don't enjoy to appease you?
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In this one regard, I really like Apex and Tin Mage. TFs should have a merit-worth based on difficulty, and time should not be a factor in the slightest.
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What suggests to you that these TFs' rewards are not (or at least will not be) intended to be balanced around median completion time?
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
In this one regard, I really like Apex and Tin Mage. TFs should have a merit-worth based on difficulty, and time should not be a factor in the slightest.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Define "difficulty". |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I'd much prefer the devs stop balancing rewards to punish you for going fast (which also punishes me for going slow, as I get less rewards per time played.)
In this one regard, I really like Apex and Tin Mage. TFs should have a merit-worth based on difficulty, and time should not be a factor in the slightest. |
The ITF is still difficult for some people. Do you think the merit reward for the people that run it in 20 minutes should be higher than it is because some people still fail it? Or should it be lower than it is because other people can solo it?
You can't base it on "difficulty" because what is nearly impossible for one person may be trivially easy for another.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Yes.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Do you think the merit reward for the people that run it in 20 minutes should be higher than it is because some people still fail it?
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Since Beet is an EU player, I can confirm that is often the case on the EU servers, most of the speed runs (or taskforce runs in general) take place later in the evening when people have gotten back from work or school.
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Originally Posted by brophog02
On the fuller servers, I haven't witnessed that at all. They're run every hour of the day, every day of the week.
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This whole debate always reminds me of the people saying confuse hurts teams.
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Stop stealing my xp with Confuse!
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Originally Posted by Gaderath
This whole debate always reminds me of the people saying confuse hurts teams.
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I do speed runs because I enjoy them. It's a rush, trying to thread through a labyrinthine map in the shortest amount of time possible. I enjoy trying to be the first person to the next objective. I enjoy racing against the clock to complete a TF in record time. My TF mantra is "The faster I go, the faster we go." I don't begrudge those who don't like speed TFs, but I do take umbrage with being told that what I'm doing is somehow wrong.
@Demobot
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