Pointless Padding or legitimate strategy?
By
Antigonus,
Posted on: 2011-02-02 14:42 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I HOPE its just for the Strike Month that this is in place since i dont fancy having to play an entire month for an alt to get a new level.
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The devs have already said there will be other ways to get a Notice of the Well once the Incarnate Trials are released in I20. Presumably you'll be able to claim the reward once every 20 hours, or whatever the diminishing rewards timer is on Trials, once I20 hits. If you want it NAO! you have to jump through their hoops.
...I forgot what experience means.
It's my understanding that when issue 20 goes live we will be able to craft Notices of the Well, which should speed things up.
My 50 tank already had 2 uncommon boosts and the other components ready so all I needed was the Notice to get my rare. Now I have to get another one, which shouldn't take very long.
But yeah, having to wait several weeks per character to get the rare boost seems bad.
Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind
OMG!! Please add these costume designs now!
In short, it's padding until I20. After that, we don't know.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I don't think the Very Rares are worth it.
Looking at the numbers for example, it looks to me the biggest leap in power will be going from Uncommon to Rare simply because of the level shift.
In the case of a character I decked out with an Rare Musculature, they'll only gain maybe 4-5% more damage moving up to a Very Rare, if my numbers are right. Unless the Very Rares are sporting a +2 Level Shift (un-freakin' likely) it seems very anticlimactic considering how much more the Very Rares require.
IMO, they're just not worth it unless the Very Rares ignored ED completely or granted an additional level shift or something.
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Yes. Yes it is.
It makes complete sense from a marketing and development standpoint to add an element that slows down the progression. They spend alot of time and resources to develop new aspects of the game that are being marketed as a major selling point. Regardless of how the veteran "want it now" players may think of it, it looks bad when that new content gets blown out in a matter of hours. Besides, what's the rush? Are you going somewhere? Does your subscription run out at midnight and you want to get this one last thing done?
Maybe Tier 4 of the Alpha slot is required to unlock the Judgement slot?
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Given that the very rare boosts ignore 2/3 of ED while rare ignore 1/2 it seems worth it to me. You could be looking at perma Hasten among other things. My DM/Regen already has a 5 second gap in Dull Pain, and he's only got the uncommon Spiritual boost. With rare and very rare, Dull Pain will be perma easily. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I don't think the Very Rares are worth it.
Looking at the numbers for example, it looks to me the biggest leap in power will be going from Uncommon to Rare simply because of the level shift. In the case of a character I decked out with an Rare Musculature, they'll only gain maybe 4-5% more damage moving up to a Very Rare, if my numbers are right. Unless the Very Rares are sporting a +2 Level Shift (un-freakin' likely) it seems very anticlimactic considering how much more the Very Rares require. IMO, they're just not worth it unless the Very Rares ignored ED completely or granted an additional level shift or something. . |
I had expected the very rare to give a +2 level shift. But given that there are 10 total slots coming out that seems excessive especially if all of them gave level shifts.
Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind
OMG!! Please add these costume designs now!
I look at it this way:
The devs are going to rate-limit my acquisition of shiny stuff, because they want me to keep giving them my money. I have no problem with that.
They can limit the acquisition time by requiring me to play specific content for what (on average) takes a player a week. Or they can require me to play a couple of hours of content, and then leave the rest of my play week free to do whatever kind of content I want until the time limit expires. I personally find the latter a lot more fun, and also much friendlier for a game where people have a lot of alts.
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They most likely don't. Arcanaville pointed out how unlikely that would be, and in this case I'm inclined to agree.|
Originally Posted by UberRod
But given that there are 10 total slots coming out that seems excessive especially if all of them gave level shifts.
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IMO, most likely we'll get another Shift with the Omega slot and that'll be it.
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Doubting that they'll all give a level shift myself, but that's just assumption. I bought into the whole First Mission has level 50 AVs conning yellow thing we're going to look at a +5 total.
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Originally Posted by UberRod
Given that the very rare boosts ignore 2/3 of ED while rare ignore 1/2 it seems worth it to me. You could be looking at perma Hasten among other things. My DM/Regen already has a 5 second gap in Dull Pain, and he's only got the uncommon Spiritual boost. With rare and very rare, Dull Pain will be perma easily.
I had expected the very rare to give a +2 level shift. But given that there are 10 total slots coming out that seems excessive especially if all of them gave level shifts. |
Let's Dance!
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Still matches what he said. The difference between 2/3 and 1/2 is 1/6, and for a 33% buff that's just an extra 5% and change (or 7.5% if you go with a Core boost). Still, given that 7.5% bonuses are sought after in IOs, it's not necessarily nothing, and it may be that final oomph one needs in recharge or accuracy.
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Originally Posted by UberRod
Given that the very rare boosts ignore 2/3 of ED while rare ignore 1/2 it seems worth it to me.
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De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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The biggest jump in power is most noticeable in the Cardiac Tree. Cardiac Core Paragon, 45% End Redux, 20% DamRes and Range. 2/3 of that ignores ED.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I don't think the Very Rares are worth it.
Looking at the numbers for example, it looks to me the biggest leap in power will be going from Uncommon to Rare simply because of the level shift. In the case of a character I decked out with an Rare Musculature, they'll only gain maybe 4-5% more damage moving up to a Very Rare, if my numbers are right. Unless the Very Rares are sporting a +2 Level Shift (un-freakin' likely) it seems very anticlimactic considering how much more the Very Rares require. IMO, they're just not worth it unless the Very Rares ignored ED completely or granted an additional level shift or something. |
My Dark Regeneration will cost me ten endurance. TEN.
The Very Rares are most powerful when slotted into builds that can use them most. If you're going to slot a Permadom with Spiritual Core Paragon, you might not really see much of a change. If you slot a Stone Tank with the same, you'll probably see a whole lot of it.
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Im leaning toward padding, especially with the harsh return on breaking down common and uncommon salvage.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
Time gating is an inelegant solution with regard to the satisfaction of hard core players.
Time gating is a very elegant solution from a Dev's point of view of braking hard core players, their satisfaction notwithstanding.
It's just a very, very easy way to stop hard core gamers from doing it all in one night leaving the rest of the player base behind and then complaining there's nothing left to do.
The XP and leveling system is supposed to do that, but certain hard core players find ways to level to 50 in a few days, if not just one.
This prevents certain players from having Very Rares on 20 level 50s the first night it is available, while others who don't get to play except maybe on weekends log on and see how far behind they are.
Yeah, it ticks off some players, but to keep a larger number being ticked off because they're left in the dust.
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There's something I find quite interesting about the Incarnate system and how it's time-gated. The goal of end game raiding - as I've seen it requested - seems to be to provide infinite progression for one character, to suit those who don't like to make alts. Which is fair enough, I suppose, except for the part of time-gating, which actually punishes those who focus on just one character, as that character will be spinning his wheels until next week, vs. people who play multiple characters simultaneously, as those will be able to swap and get several times the progress.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Time gating is an inelegant solution with regard to the satisfaction of hard core players. Time gating is a very elegant solution from a Dev's point of view of braking hard core players, their satisfaction notwithstanding. It's just a very, very easy way to stop hard core gamers from doing it all in one night leaving the rest of the player base behind and then complaining there's nothing left to do. The XP and leveling system is supposed to do that, but certain hard core players find ways to level to 50 in a few days, if not just one. This prevents certain players from having Very Rares on 20 level 50s the first night it is available, while others who don't get to play except maybe on weekends log on and see how far behind they are. Yeah, it ticks off some players, but to keep a larger number being ticked off because they're left in the dust.
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I'm not saying whether that's good or bad, it just seems... Self-contradicting, as I understand it. How ARE we expected to play this?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The one week time limit is what I find irritating. Make it a day or two and I could deal with that. There are only two characters I am currently interested in playing currently, so now I have nothing I care to do except play the market for a week.
But if I was able to get my very rare this week, well then I would have a whole set of challenges I could go after over the next month.
But since I'm paying the same price either way, I don't really expect the company to give a damn that this is irritating.
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If they *didnt* time gate it... i could guarantee that people would have had the very rare slotted within 6 hours of the game coming up (I did the STF in just under 2 hours yesterday, with a 30 minute break due to tank crashing out).|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
There's something I find quite interesting about the Incarnate system and how it's time-gated. The goal of end game raiding - as I've seen it requested - seems to be to provide infinite progression for one character, to suit those who don't like to make alts. Which is fair enough, I suppose, except for the part of time-gating, which actually punishes those who focus on just one character, as that character will be spinning his wheels until next week, vs. people who play multiple characters simultaneously, as those will be able to swap and get several times the progress.
I'm not saying whether that's good or bad, it just seems... Self-contradicting, as I understand it. How ARE we expected to play this? |
And then we would have been back to square one and people complaining about a lack of content.
Hell, even with a 20hour delay on it (still time gating) would have put a time limit of just over 3 days onto it...
Now, flip side, it *could* be made easier in I20 with alternative routes for both parts... so that they are compatible with getting the components via alternate means...IE get one via the WST and another via another means.
But I am know nothing about what is coming in I20, so its all pure hypothesis...
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Again, I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I just seem to have lost the train of thought behind the Incarnate system. I was under the impression - from what people have beaten me over the head about - that its intention was to provide those who want to focus on characters with more content, yet that they can't do because of time-gating. Clearly I understood something wrong.
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Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
If they *didnt* time gate it... i could guarantee that people would have had the very rare slotted within 6 hours of the game coming up (I did the STF in just under 2 hours yesterday, with a 30 minute break due to tank crashing out).
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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If you use both end reduction and damage resist for example it will give you a whole lot, you'll go from 33 end/20 dam res to 45 end/20 dam res, and you will probably be slotted such that you gain the full 15%. There are similar combos in the other trees.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I don't think the Very Rares are worth it.
Looking at the numbers for example, it looks to me the biggest leap in power will be going from Uncommon to Rare simply because of the level shift. In the case of a character I decked out with an Rare Musculature, they'll only gain maybe 4-5% more damage moving up to a Very Rare, if my numbers are right. Unless the Very Rares are sporting a +2 Level Shift (un-freakin' likely) it seems very anticlimactic considering how much more the Very Rares require. IMO, they're just not worth it unless the Very Rares ignored ED completely or granted an additional level shift or something. . |
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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I think it's a case of wrong order/timing. For their own reasons, etc. Because WSFs came out first, they appear to be the primary method [and until i20, they are]. However, in other games with similar incentives, they aren't really the primary method, they are a bonus meant more so to help others 'catch up'. Of course, other games still have a time-gate [instance resets], but they are felt far less profoundly as the time-gate on the weekly.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Again, I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I just seem to have lost the train of thought behind the Incarnate system. I was under the impression - from what people have beaten me over the head about - that its intention was to provide those who want to focus on characters with more content, yet that they can't do because of time-gating. Clearly I understood something wrong.
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Of course, the rate of progression with CoH is a different beast than those other games
.One thing though, I wouldn't really call the Alpha Slot abilities content personally. They are 'gear'/power/rewards. Content to me would have been the Ramiel story arc and the Apex or Tin Mage TFs. Different perspective is all
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Let's Dance!
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You and me both. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Again, I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I just seem to have lost the train of thought behind the Incarnate system. I was under the impression - from what people have beaten me over the head about - that its intention was to provide those who want to focus on characters with more content, yet that they can't do because of time-gating. Clearly I understood something wrong.
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Honestly I think the devs didn't want to get butt hurt that people could blow threw their content in hours. As much as I like the incarnate system I hate HAte HATE time gates. I think it stinks, stinks of greed. They just want to keep their customers longer and I can't say I blame them but I do hold it against them.
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This is my problem with it. It really doesn't lend itself well to the ethos of those who would focus on a single character through the Incarnate system which seems to be the whole point of the Incarnate system as offering an alternative to the 'IO out a character, then roll an alt' style of endgame.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
There's something I find quite interesting about the Incarnate system and how it's time-gated. The goal of end game raiding - as I've seen it requested - seems to be to provide infinite progression for one character, to suit those who don't like to make alts. Which is fair enough, I suppose, except for the part of time-gating, which actually punishes those who focus on just one character, as that character will be spinning his wheels until next week, vs. people who play multiple characters simultaneously, as those will be able to swap and get several times the progress.
I'm not saying whether that's good or bad, it just seems... Self-contradicting, as I understand it. How ARE we expected to play this? |
I have 1 character I'm taking through the Incarnate system, if I had 4 or 5 then I'd definitely see more use out of the WST but the fact I've got one character who I want to advance I assumed that the Incarnate system would be a good fit, I can focus on outfitting that character alone.
Then the time-gating of the frankly ridiculous level (a week? Really?) comes in with the Rare and Very Rare...Look saving up 32 shards is going to take me long enough (especially since the drop rate seems to have dived, I use to get 7-10 per TF, now I'm lucky to get 4), let alone then having to wait a further 2 weeks ontop of that.
I suppose atleast they're honest and saying "Until Issue 20, we're going to pad the hell out of this process just to make it last longer so it takes you longer to get what you need because we damn well feel like it".
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Heh, more or less. My take on it is more we moved Strike Targets out early to tide the players over until I20. At least that's my view on it.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
I suppose atleast they're honest and saying "Until Issue 20, we're going to pad the hell out of this process just to make it last longer so it takes you longer to get what you need because we damn well feel like it". |
Let's Dance!
Ok so now we know what it takes to get the Very Rare Alpha Incarnate Slot.
Don't get me wrong I'm working my way towards getting it but there is this niggling feeling...
Does the fact you have to wait 4 weeks, real time, no matter what amount of effort you put in just come across as padding to anyone else?
Basically the devs going, "Oh people got their Uncommon within the day of Issue 19 launch, we don't want that happening again with the Very Rare, especially now people have had a chance to save up Shards and Salvage, So lets put in a long waiting period on the one specific piece of salvage we've decided they'll need atleast 4 of, with no other way of getting it, so that it'll appear to make the Very Rare more work than it really is!"
I get you don't want people who have horded enough Shards to just blitz through the system and go "Done! What's next?" within 2-3 days of the Issue coming out and to keep people running the Weekly Strike Target but...I can't help but feel as if the time sink aspect of it is just that little too obvious.