WST -- Ill-conceived.
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2011-02-02 09:29 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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As mentioned the upcoming WSF, Sister Psyche (in 3 weeks I think) only needs 5 to start. Next week's Kahn needs 8, but can easily be banged out in an hour or much much less. Recruiting 3 people for the WSF should be pretty easy. To those people who literally don't have the time to sit in front of a screen for an hour or two to do the TF I think that sucks, for sure, but ponder this: there is currently nothing for you to do as an incarnate that requires you to BE an incarnate. The only incarnate content at this point is team oriented, so I'm not entirely sure what you're missing out on.|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
You are forgetting that up until now, there was no avenue of "power" that was closed to anyone because of playstyle. You could completely IO out a character in the most expensive of builds without having to run TF's at all. The fact that the Incarnate System requires running TF's to advance your character is a departure from that philosophy.
As for your comments about "sucking it up." Simply put: NO. This is a game. Why in the devil should I do something in a game that I do not enjoy? That's just silly. I "suck it up" and do things I don't want at work because I have to. I would prefer not to be faced with the same type of choices in my leisure time. And what is with people flinging around all the insults? People ask for the Devs to give us more options and suddenly everyone that doesn't like the idea feels the need to insult them? Marvelous. I team every single night. Last night I ran two TF's with my SG. For the first TF we had 4 players, for the second, we had 5. But to advance my Incarnate character I have to run TF's that require 8 people? Why is that, exactly? What makes needing 8 people better than needing 4 or 5? Nothing. All I want is for the Devs to give us options. That's it, just options. Some people are extremely opposed to that though. It's amazing to me how determined to deny things to others people have become these days. |
When they do add non-TF incarnate content I'll assume that there's going to be a non-TF way to advance. If not I'll be surprised. but right now, I'm not entirely sure what you're missing out on.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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I suppose you missed the entire next to last paragraph of my post, didn't you?|
Originally Posted by TonyV
Well, at least for the immediate future, the philosophy has changed a little. If it changed to the point where everything required teaming, I might have more sympathy for you. As it is, they've introduced one thing that requires teaming. In their MMORPG. For now. Hear that? It's the world's smallest violin. Live with it.
...Or don't. Either way doesn't matter much to me. Although, I do think it's pretty melodramatic to pitch such a fit over this. Same reason it takes eight people to finish the Cavern of Transcendence trial. It just does. Live with it, do without, or leave. But to come here and complain that you want the shiny without doing x that's required is... Well, not very productive. No, you want the devs to change a mechanic they've designed to earn something just to suit your particular play style, a style that flies in the face of what an MMORPG is. That sounds all fine and good, except that, like I said, I've been seeing this argument forever. People want to get Shivans without having to go in a PvP zone. People want to get task force accolades without having to run task forces. People want epic healing badges on archetypes not designed to heal. Ho hum. |
You know absolutely nothing about my playstyle. And continually highlighting the two M's in MMORPG isn't going to change the fact that the Devs have changed the direction of this game. They are moving it toward an endgame raid style of play, which I do not think is good for CoH. I am giving my feedback on that change, and stating what I as a customer would like to see happen with future content development, nothing more. You and others like you seem determined to tell me I don't have the right to give that feedback.
I am not protesting against what the Devs are doing because I can't participate. My play schedule most certainly allows me enough time to run a TF pretty much anytime I wish. My ability to participate is not the point. The point is that CoH was not exclusionary until now, and I feel that making it so is bad for the game.
I'm not going to go away, I'm not going to shut up. I'm going to keep telling the Devs how I feel because I am under the impression they would actually like to know how the players regard their game. All the players, not just the ones that have a particular point of view. If you absolutely cannot stand that, there's no one making you read these threads you know.
I'm not throwing a fit. I'm stating my point of view. You're the one responding with enough venom to choke a snake.
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Originally Posted by TonyV
Wow, I have seen so many of these arguments so many times over so many things.
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| I suggest venturing out of your comfort zone a little and giving the MM aspect of the game a shot. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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You don't have to do the WST over and over again. You just have to do it once per incarnate if you want the reward at that time for the incarnate character.
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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I feel the need to complain about the Weekly Strike Task (or whatever the acronym is; I only know that they refuse to use the obvious 'WTF'.)
I don't care that it's necessary in order to get the rarer incarnate boosts. I don't care that it was badly tested, and a zone-crashing bug got loose into the live game. I can overlook those poor decisions. What I can't accept is how ill-conceived it was to tell the entire playerbase to do the same task force over and over again. Last night on Virtue, Independence Port had tremendous lag and appeared to be about to crash at least twice that I saw. Getting onto Stateman's ship was a slideshow. Telling your players to gather in the same zone every single day was a bad decision. But even that's minor compared to the mind-numbing tedium of doing the same task force several times, on one character or with several. And once you've completed it on one character, that character is too powerful to find challenge in any other content in the game -- not that you can play any other high-level content, because most everyone else is grinding away at the WST. Issue 19 came with new, challenging task forces that reinvigorated the high level game. Issue 19.5 is a step backwards, instructing the playerbase to re-consume old content for even less reward. The WST is a recipe for boredom, and it will only be played for as long as people can stand doing repetitive tasks. Every player will have their limit; I hit mine in one day. I just wanted to give the devs my opinion. They made a misstep with this design. Be sure that, in Issue 20, you give us something interesting to do. Please. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Then I direct you to Mirror's Edge (which has an achievement for just that), Amnesia: The Dark Descent (which has no actual weapons) and, lest we forget, Portal (the Portal "gun" is not a gun). It's not as ludicrous as you make it out to be.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
It's practically the same thing as expecting to beat an FPS without ever pulling a trigger--it's part of the core gameplay!
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Originally Posted by TonyV
Same reason it takes eight people to finish the Cavern of Transcendence trial. It just does. Live with it, do without, or leave. But to come here and complain that you want the shiny without doing x that's required is... Well, not very productive.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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lol
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Originally Posted by TonyV
Well, suck it up and do it anyway.
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With Portal at least, it's important to realize that it's not a FPS, it's a puzzle game with a FPS engine. I don't see many people claiming that Vampire the Masqeuerade: Bloodlines is a FPS, but it also uses the same engine |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Then I direct you to Mirror's Edge (which has an achievement for just that), Amnesia: The Dark Descent (which has no actual weapons) and, lest we forget, Portal (the Portal "gun" is not a gun). It's not as ludicrous as you make it out to be.
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.The other games I'm not too sure of, but I'd take with a similar grain of salt that they are first person shooters, if you are not actually shooting in first person.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Hami-Os are enhancements. Their basic benefits (if not their specific QUANTITY of enhancement) can be gotten other ways (See Invention Origin).
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| I used to play Pirates of the Carribean Online. An MMO. No teaming required. Yes, teaming made certain things EASIER or FASTER. But nothing in the game REQUIRED teaming. |
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| First off, that wasn't my argument. Second off, you're assuming that you're the one who is being logical here. |
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I will ask it another way. Please try for a cogent answer. At what point in leveling from 1 to 50 is teaming REQUIRED in CoH? |
.For my view, a level [especially in this game] is just another character-wise power increase.
I do acknowledge there are differences between levels and the more broad set of power increases, typically it comes into play more when you consider the Purple Patch [for this game anyway]. But, with how the difference between the Uncommon and the Rare Alpha Slot ability is staggered, that level shift feels simply more like a power increase (at this time).
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| That's a temp power. |
Let's Dance!
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That's because neither Portal nor Amnesia are FPS (First Person SHOOTER, that last bit is the imporant one here).|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Then I direct you to Mirror's Edge (which has an achievement for just that), Amnesia: The Dark Descent (which has no actual weapons) and, lest we forget, Portal (the Portal "gun" is not a gun). It's not as ludicrous as you make it out to be.
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I haven't played Mirror's Edge, but from what I've heard from it it's an action game, again not a shooter.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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I can't speak for Hyperstrike, but for me the problem isn't just the level shift. It is that the Devs have decided to go down the route of absolutely requiring not only teaming, but teaming to do specific content and specific team sizes. They're choosing not to allow the Incarnate system the same flexibility you see in pretty much the rest of the game. I simply can't get behind that philosophy, as I feel it completely contradicts the flexibility that I've always thought was CoH's greatest strength.|
Originally Posted by reiella
Then the problem, specifically, is the term "Level Shift". Ok
.For my view, a level [especially in this game] is just another character-wise power increase. I do acknowledge there are differences between levels and the more broad set of power increases, typically it comes into play more when you consider the Purple Patch [for this game anyway]. But, with how the difference between the Uncommon and the Rare Alpha Slot ability is staggered, that level shift feels simply more like a power increase (at this time). |
In CoH you don't need the "holy trinity" of MMO's to do content. You also can get pretty much any number of people together you want and advance your character. I've always perceived the TF content as being there for people that liked large teams. TF's have up to now been one of many ways to play. I don't want them to become the only way to play. The Devs have said they want to create an "end game for all". If that truly is their goal, they are failing miserably right now because what they are providing us with is "end game for all that like TF's."
I truly feel sorry for people that play at off hours and/or on very low population servers. I simply don't see how the current design direction is going to work for them.
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I play at off hours, mornings, after midnight, ... depending on which shift I have at work. I play on the EU servers which apparently are all low-pop compared to most NA servers.|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
I truly feel sorry for people that play at off hours and/or on very low population servers. I simply don't see how the current design direction is going to work for them.
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I don't get the problem.
If you can't make time 2 hours in a row for a TF for various reasons, fair enough, but the whole low pop servers/odd hours excuse is just nonsense imo.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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Part of that problem got resolved with WSTs. However, a few side comments. The nature of the EU servers may also have less severe drop off from active time to slow. And personally, even on Virtue, it was painful to get a group redside for lrsf.|
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
I play at off hours, mornings, after midnight, ... depending on which shift I have at work. I play on the EU servers which apparently are all low-pop compared to most NA servers.
I don't get the problem. If you can't make time 2 hours in a row for a TF for various reasons, fair enough, but the whole low pop servers/odd hours excuse is just nonsense imo. |
But the WSTs does help for getting folks into TFs in general. At least, that appears to the case for now, but time will tell if it has legs. I am fairly concerned with the lack of a 'cash out' use for the notices, but currently it's a pretty 'short' gear grind.
Let's Dance!
Have been finding it a bit difficult to get my tank into a WST team. Seems to be too many tanks around at the moment.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Again, completely and utterly beside the point. It is still possible to enhance without Hami-Os or teaming.|
Originally Posted by reiella
Invention Sets were not in the game in I2.
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| You misunderstood me. I was saying that even if it 'all other MMOs' did it 'this' way, that does make it the right way. It's a logically fallacy of the status-quo. I was attacking my questions themselves as not being a logical argument. The question regarding other MMOs was honest curiosity, it was not meant as an argument against your position. What other MMO do [or don't do] is irrelevant to the question as to what this MMO 'should' do. |
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| For my view, a level [especially in this game] is just another character-wise power increase. |
How "quaint".
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
This thread wanders a bit but there are a couple of things that don't work for me. This is a MMORPG so you must team to advance your character! Why? I don't have to RP to advance my character. That seems a bit hypocritical to decide that we all have to team to advance because the definition says so but leave half the definition out. I personally think they should allow solo toons to attempt the TF's solo. There are some very experienced players who would enjoy trying with a small team or solo. It might actually make the game challenging for our vets and give soloists options. Honestly having eight alpha slotted toons doesn't seem necessary to complete these TF's or what folks asking for challenge or soloists are asking for. So maybe if you have your incarnate enhancement the requirements for starting this stuff should change.
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And it's possible to get an alpha slot ability without teaming. Remember, you are the one that advancement has never required teaming. The big excuse that HamiOs have from that is that they were tradable. Which does make it different than the alpha slot situation. And arguably more similar to the IoP scenariio, which is still different.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Again, completely and utterly beside the point. It is still possible to enhance without Hami-Os or teaming.
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| Again, the basic point is, THIS game did not FORCE teaming for level advancement until now. |
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Ah. An attempt to define leveling in the game as "an enhancement". How "quaint". |
Let's Dance!
Hami-O's aren't character advancement.
Comparing a small bonus to actual leveling (and that is what a level shift is) is incredibly silly.
I actually wouldn't care about these requiring teaming if the following was done.
They do not give any powers
They do not give level shifts
No content requires anything past the common.
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I'm pretty sure right now that, despite it not being explicitly stated all the incarnate slots will be gettable without teaming, but that not all the trees within the slots will be without getting a Notice or something like it. Meaning that right now, as of this moment, 2/3 of your requirements are met. Currently no content requires anything more than a common and quite frankly we can't speculate too much on future content.|
Originally Posted by Toony
Hami-O's aren't character advancement.
Comparing a small bonus to actual leveling (and that is what a level shift is) is incredibly silly. I actually wouldn't care about these requiring teaming if the following was done. They do not give any powers They do not give level shifts No content requires anything past the common. |
But right as of this moment there's also not ANY solo incarnate content. Still, I would suspect that you're going to be able to obtain at least the common slot solo for all the slots. And, yes, I know that's speculation. But given the tone of the devs since this has come out, and the desire to make it inclusive of most if not all play styles, I don't think it's all that rampant.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
Sorry, but do i get more HP from slotting rare/very rare alpha ?
Nope, therefore in *my* mind i am getting a general buff, and not actually levelling up.
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No it's not.
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Originally Posted by Toony
Comparing a small bonus to actual leveling (and that is what a level shift is) |
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
Well, let's see. Personally, I'm not much into badge-hunting, it's just not my play style. Therefore:
- Devs, provide me an alternative to getting the Atlas Medallion. It's not fair that all those other badge-hunting people get a 5% bonus to their maximum endurance for something that doesn't suit my play style.
- Devs, provide me an alternative to getting the Eye of the Magus power. It's not fair that all those other badge-hunting people get a power that can provide 30% resistance and 50% defense for something that doesn't suit my play style.
- Devs, provide me an alternative to getting the Crey CBX-9 Pistol. It's not fair that all those other badge-hunting people get a power that can cause damage and slow enemies for something that doesn't suit my play style.
- Devs, provide me an alternative to getting the Freedom Phalanx Reserve auto-power. It's not fair that all those other badge-hunting people get a 10% bonus to their maximum health for something that doesn't suit my play style.
- Devs, provide me an alternative to getting the Vanguard Medal. It's not fair that all those other badge-hunting people get a power that can boost status resistance for something that doesn't suit my play style.
While we're at it, since I hate teams so much also...
- Devs, provide me an alternative way to get those epaulets costume item. I have to do not one, not two, not three, four, five, or six, but seven task forces to get them. That is so unfair, and doesn't suit my play style!
- Devs, ZOMG, those seven task forces also give a 5% boost in health! This doesn't suit my play style either, so needless to say, you'll have to give me some other way to earn that, too.
- Devs, I want some earned respecs without having to team with people, so looks like alternatives for the respec trials is in order.
- Devs, come to think of it, I guess I really do want all of those task force badges after all, so please design new solo challenges so that I can get them without having to team up with anyone.
- Devs, this whole "need a hero/need a villain" concept behind the Spring Fling event to get a badge is outrageous. Obviously, that's got to go too, because it doesn't suit my play style at all!
- Devs, next winter, I want to be able to get all of the badges and candy canes for defeating Lord Winter without a team, so please redesign that.
- Devs, I really want a pretty supergroup base, but since playing in a supergroup isn't my style either, you really need to do away with prestige and just give us open access to everything.
Oh, and spending money isn't my play style, so...
- Devs, it's unfair that people have to pay for that Jump Jet power. You really need to give us all of the stuff in the GvE edition for free. Paying money doesn't suit my play style!
- Devs, it's unfair that people have to pay for the mission teleporter. You really need to give us all of the stuff in the Architect edition for free. Paying money doesn't suit my play style!
- Devs, it's unfair that people have to pay for all of the bonus pack costumes and emotes. You really need to give us all of the stuff in those packs for free. Paying money doesn't... Aw, you know!
While we're at it...
- Devs, I don't like doing Rikti ship raids. Provide some way for me to get the unlockable Vanguard Bow, plzkthx.
- Devs, farming Fake Nemeses doesn't suit my play style, so provide some way for me to get the Nemesis Rifle customizations, plzkthx.
- Devs, the whole crafting system doesn't suit my play style, but I want the convenience of the portable workbench. Please provide alternate, plzkthx.
- ...
Come to think of it, playing the game at all really crimps my play style, so please figure out ways to give me all of this without doing anything.
Thanks!
--TonyV
P.S. Or else I'll quit, waaah!
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
The WST is end game content. The vanguard pack is to keep us paying while the team enjoys the rewards and some quality of life moments from building a very nice game before they go to their next jobs. This is why the changes in the last few months. I'd be surprised if we get any new content before Summer. The WST isn't ill-conceived from the Dev perspective.
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Some of us are simply extremely opposed to reading the endless complaining about there being no solo way to get the NoTW right NOW and extrapolating that means there never will be, then using that UNPROVABLE outlook to say the devs have forsaken the solo players.|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
All I want is for the Devs to give us options. That's it, just options. Some people are extremely opposed to that though. It's amazing to me how determined to deny things to others people have become these days.
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In turn, this leaves the possibility of turning off current and potential players, using UNPROVABLE MISINFORMATION, which I, personally, find more annoying than anything the devs could ever add to the game.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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The soloists have valid points. Recently, I played solo with my new earth dom on Union. Doing solo I gained this:|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
Some of us are simply extremely opposed to reading the endless complaining about there being no solo way to get the NoTW right NOW and extrapolating that means there never will be, then using that UNPROVABLE outlook to say the devs have forsaken the solo players.
In turn, this leaves the possibility of turning off current and potential players, using UNPROVABLE MISINFORMATION, which I, personally, find more annoying than anything the devs could ever add to the game. |
1. More control - I could play when I wanted.
2. Easier missions - The spawns are less. It will be easier to Alpha than with teams.
Who wouldn't want to do the Alpha TFs in this fashion? I'd like to see it now.
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I am not, in any way, opposed to solo ways to get Incarnate loot.|
Originally Posted by Residentx_EU
The soloist have valid points. Recently, I played solo with my new earth dom on Union. Doing solo I gained this:
1. More control - I could play when I wanted. 2. Easier missions - The spawns are less. It will be easier to Alpha than with teams. Who won't want to be able to do the Alpha TFs in this fashion? I'd like to see it now. |
I am, however, opposed to the rampant misinformed, inflammatory complaining about the conclusion that since there is no way to do it NOW, there never will be.
I, personally, cannot stand the fearful outlook that often propagates these sorts of things.
Willfully spreading misinformation is, IMO, one of the lowest things a person can do.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)