WST -- Ill-conceived.
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2011-02-02 09:29 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
you know, I have to say, I really like the how the STF runs. I know it's longer than the ITF or Kahn, and definitely harder, but I really like how it's set up and how it runs. It feels, I don't know, epic in a way that neither of the aforementioned ones do. And I like ITF.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
People are getting hung up on the whole Notice part, and missing the bigger picture. The WST is great because it generates an enormous amount of interest in the target TF, and it's not just 50s that can get in on the action. The rewards are great for non-capped characters too. Anyone with a character they never get to play can log in, get on the weekly TF and get a huge chunk of XP and merits for their time.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
I disagree with the flavor comment. It's the same stuff we've been running. Tfs with Shards, Tfs with notices. I'm feeling like Forrest Gump....Fried Shrimp, Boiled Shrimp, Breaded Shrimp...at the core it's still shrimp.
Where's the new stuff? 1 new TF a month is that so hard?
Ncsoft is doing everything but creating new content...it's like they know something and aren't telling us.
Why 19.5(never been done before .5) and when will i20 really come? The rewards? More XP, More Merits... who cares?
If your a 50, you enough XP and merits. More prestige/Infamy would be nice but...
Quote:
I wholeheartedly agree with all of this. I just want to add one thing. The fact that everyone is doing the same task makes it harder for those of us who want to do something else to find a team. I spent over 90 minutes during midday yesterday (before the patch) trying to form a MOapex. I am well known on Freedom and people are usually coming in droves when I try to set up a SF especially one that has badges. I was so infuriated that I ragequit the game and didn't even try to come back until about the time that the servers came back up. The WTF is an utter failure as far as I'm concerned.
|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I feel the need to complain about the Weekly Strike Task (or whatever the acronym is; I only know that they refuse to use the obvious 'WTF'.)
I don't care that it's necessary in order to get the rarer incarnate boosts. I don't care that it was badly tested, and a zone-crashing bug got loose into the live game. I can overlook those poor decisions. What I can't accept is how ill-conceived it was to tell the entire playerbase to do the same task force over and over again. Last night on Virtue, Independence Port had tremendous lag and appeared to be about to crash at least twice that I saw. Getting onto Stateman's ship was a slideshow. Telling your players to gather in the same zone every single day was a bad decision. But even that's minor compared to the mind-numbing tedium of doing the same task force several times, on one character or with several. And once you've completed it on one character, that character is too powerful to find challenge in any other content in the game -- not that you can play any other high-level content, because most everyone else is grinding away at the WST. Issue 19 came with new, challenging task forces that reinvigorated the high level game. Issue 19.5 is a step backwards, instructing the playerbase to re-consume old content for even less reward. The WST is a recipe for boredom, and it will only be played for as long as people can stand doing repetitive tasks. Every player will have their limit; I hit mine in one day. I just wanted to give the devs my opinion. They made a misstep with this design. Be sure that, in Issue 20, you give us something interesting to do. Please. |
Quote:
If you are wanting to try to solo some of the lower level TFs, I can offer an anchor that will sit on the team for days so you can take your time. If you are on Pinnacle, Victory, or Freedom.
|
Originally Posted by Arnabas
I dunno.
For people who have limited playtime and who can't play durig peak hours, it probably helps them get a chance at playing the TF in question. I have been playing siince launch and have probably done only about 1/3 of the TFs. I had actually been hoping that the Incarnate system might let sufficiently poweffrul characters solo some of the older TFs because I have long felt that that was the only way I'd get to see them, given that I tend to be able to only play during the day, or for 1-2 missions per night. This means that I have to find a group willing to do TFs over the course of several nights, one or two missions at a time. In 7 years, that hasn't happened too often. |
Quote:
Doesn't the flashback do some of that? I mean if you go to Ouro and do it a second time isn't it tracked there in the Fire and Ice?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I'd really like the devs to add some kind of journal to the game, that would keep track of all the content you'd one, as well as other stats.
|
About the stats, I use the CohTitan tool(http://www.cohtitan.com/), Herostats (http://www.herostats.org/). It's not integrated with CoH but does keeps daily records. I put my data into an excel workbook and run functions on them.
Quote:
Wow, sounds like it's time for break, maybe?
|
Originally Posted by GhoulSlayer
I spent over 90 minutes during midday yesterday (before the patch) trying to form a MOapex. I am well known on Freedom and people are usually coming in droves when I try to set up a SF especially one that has badges. I was so infuriated that I ragequit the game and didn't even try to come back until about the time that the servers came back up.
|
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
After the double xp weekend, I think we all need a break.
|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Wow, sounds like it's time for break, maybe?
|
Quote:
Technically I'm not forced to do anything. Even eat and breathe.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Well to be clear I'm certainly not defending the bugs or problems with testing in this case. I'm just arguing that the concept behind the WSTs (regardless of the unique problems introducing it to the game) is really not any worse or better than many of the other new features we've gotten over the years.
Once the problems are fixed it'll be yet another choice of activity for us to be involved with. You aren't being forced to like it or hate it regardless. |
I'm just heavily coerced by external forces to do something.
Quote:
And exactly what rate of releasing new content would you be satisfied with? A new TF every week? A new story arc introduced every day? |
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I can see the management decision at work here. They're giving long-time players a bribe to play a TF at least once a week, and thus to keep their accounts open. I just don't think it's wise to herd player behavior like that, because it hurts those who aren't in danger of quitting but who want to be part of a vibrant community. Retaining players with new content is a much better way to go.
|
They had the Rare and Very Rare slots ready. They did NOT have the content designed to award it ready, so they gave us a way to get it earlier than we otherwise would.
It is really just another reward added on to something a lot of players do anyway.
And it's not even like we're going to have to run the same 4 TFs over and over, later this month the WST is Sister Psyche/Silver Mantis.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
Because they are open to anyone with a character of the appropriate level. |
Originally Posted by rsclark
A better choice would be looking at why LGTF and ITF get run so much more than the others and trying to replicate that formula for success in the currently existing crap TFs. |
If you want to run a STF, you have to be a hero. If you want to run an RSF, you have to be a villain.
Currently, LGTF and ITF are the only thing in the game where your alignment doesn't matter at all. Hero, villain, vigilante, and rogue can all run them equally.
That makes them more popular than alignment specific TFs, simply because if you feel like running one, all you need is a character of a high enough level (or that has access to the zone in the case of the ITF)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
People gathering in the same zone after a new release is hardly a new phenomenon... During the first week of Issue 19, practicly everyone lived in Ouroborous and the the RWZ. |
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I feel the need to complain about the Weekly Strike Task (or whatever the acronym is; I only know that they refuse to use the obvious 'WTF'.)
I don't care that it's necessary in order to get the rarer incarnate boosts. I don't care that it was badly tested, and a zone-crashing bug got loose into the live game. I can overlook those poor decisions. What I can't accept is how ill-conceived it was to tell the entire playerbase to do the same task force over and over again. Last night on Virtue, Independence Port had tremendous lag and appeared to be about to crash at least twice that I saw. Getting onto Stateman's ship was a slideshow. Telling your players to gather in the same zone every single day was a bad decision. But even that's minor compared to the mind-numbing tedium of doing the same task force several times, on one character or with several. And once you've completed it on one character, that character is too powerful to find challenge in any other content in the game -- not that you can play any other high-level content, because most everyone else is grinding away at the WST. Issue 19 came with new, challenging task forces that reinvigorated the high level game. Issue 19.5 is a step backwards, instructing the playerbase to re-consume old content for even less reward. The WST is a recipe for boredom, and it will only be played for as long as people can stand doing repetitive tasks. Every player will have their limit; I hit mine in one day. I just wanted to give the devs my opinion. They made a misstep with this design. Be sure that, in Issue 20, you give us something interesting to do. Please. |
If it's boring to do more than once, then don't do it more than once... I don't get how people keep making a point out of this. I have 7 50's myself, not a huge number, but 2 of them still aren't incarnates and only 3 characters have done the Incarnate TFs. (I ran them both 3 times on my badger to get all the badges though.)
If content gets to easy with the level shift, increase your difficulty. That's what it's for.
Personally I haven't had the time to do a TF this week, I'll probably get around to it tonight, if not, then I'm going to have to wait for next week's WST. It's not a race you know?
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
Quote:
There is a Redname quote somewhere, or maybe it was in one of the interviews, where it says that they did exactly that when designing the Incarnate TFs.
|
Originally Posted by rsclark
A better choice would be looking at why LGTF and ITF get run so much more than the others and trying to replicate that formula for success in the currently existing crap TFs.
|
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
Quote:
I'm sorry but I can't do anything but laugh out loud at this (No, seriously, my boss looked at me funny.) |
Originally Posted by GhoulSlayer
I wholeheartedly agree with all of this. I just want to add one thing. The fact that everyone is doing the same task makes it harder for those of us who want to do something else to find a team. I spent over 90 minutes during midday yesterday (before the patch) trying to form a MOapex. I am well known on Freedom and people are usually coming in droves when I try to set up a SF especially one that has badges. I was so infuriated that I ragequit the game and didn't even try to come back until about the time that the servers came back up. The WTF is an utter failure as far as I'm concerned.
|
You ragequit because people didn't want to team with you?
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
Quote:
They put 2 new TFs, the initial incarnate trial, and new Tip missions into the game with Issue 19. You can debate about "lots of little updates or one big update every 3 months," as that's been going on since the game started, but they've been content to go with the latter for 7 years now. Let's say they added one new TF a month, people would suddenly complain that "everyone is running just that TF, and now I'm bored with it and want more stuff."
|
Originally Posted by Residentx_EU
I disagree with the flavor comment. It's the same stuff we've been running. Tfs with Shards, Tfs with notices. I'm feeling like Forrest Gump....Fried Shrimp, Boiled Shrimp, Breaded Shrimp...at the core it's still shrimp.
Where's the new stuff? 1 new TF a month is that so hard? Ncsoft is doing everything but creating new content...it's like they know something and aren't telling us. Why 19.5(never been done before .5) and when will i20 really come? The rewards? More XP, More Merits... who cares? If your a 50, you enough XP and merits. More prestige/Infamy would be nice but... |
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
After the first four weeks when "everyone" is going for the Notice for their favourite alt/s, I do think we'll see a larger spread in population. And there's always the option of skipping a week if it's a task force you don't like. On a completely different note;
Quote:
It did use to be 10, patched down to 2 at 2005-09-20. When people still had trouble getting the accolade, they did some other changes. Like having NPC's stop hitting Sally, make "her" spawn in the water and fix the broken timer.
|
Originally Posted by Defenestrator
It has always been 2. (10 is the number of times to beat whats-her-face on the Katie Hannon TF, so maybe that's why it's stuck with you.) My memory is faulty on them upping the spawn rate. Very possible, but I can't remember.
But currently people are all, "Oh, look. It's Sally! Meh!" And that was more to my point. Once people start getting some rares and ultra rares slotted, interest in the Strike Targets will wane. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
They had the Rare and Very Rare slots ready. They did NOT have the content designed to award it ready, so they gave us a way to get it earlier than we otherwise would.
It is really just another reward added on to something a lot of players do anyway. |
Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP
Remember kids, crack is whack!
Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
What it comes down to is:
The devs are not making you run the same TF over and over.
Your own desire to have the brand new thing on all your characters RIGHT NOW is making you run the same TF over and over.
The game is not going anywhere. The Incarnate system is not going anywhere. You are not going to lose the opportunity to do these things if you don't do them right this instant.
If you have 35 level 50 characters, well, I guess you're not getting the Notice on all of them this week, are you? Well, unless you have the time and desire to spend 35-70 hours running TFs this week.
TrueMetal has it right on one count: It's not a race. You aren't going to lose the game because you didn't get the new shiny as fast as someone else did.
The devs do not decide what I spend my time in the game doing, *I* decide that. I am content to run the WST at my own pace, when *I* feel like doing it. What I am NOT going to do is grind out the same TF repeatedly because I'm obsessed with having the new thing immediately, and then blaming the devs when I get burned out on it. They gave us the Notice, they aren't twisting our arms and telling us that we have to get it on all of our characters in the first week of it existing.
Again, the devs are NOT to blame for your compulsion to have everything on all your characters RIGHT NOW.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
I never have run the TF's and never will. It isn't about needing something immediately. I'll never advance my character period if I am gated by a Task Force.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
What it comes down to is:
The devs are not making you run the same TF over and over. Your own desire to have the brand new thing on all your characters RIGHT NOW is making you run the same TF over and over. The game is not going anywhere. The Incarnate system is not going anywhere. You are not going to lose the opportunity to do these things if you don't do them right this instant. If you have 35 level 50 characters, well, I guess you're not getting the Notice on all of them this week, are you? Well, unless you have the time and desire to spend 35-70 hours running TFs this week. TrueMetal has it right on one count: It's not a race. You aren't going to lose the game because you didn't get the new shiny as fast as someone else did. The devs do not decide what I spend my time in the game doing, *I* decide that. I am content to run the WST at my own pace, when *I* feel like doing it. What I am NOT going to do is grind out the same TF repeatedly because I'm obsessed with having the new thing immediately, and then blaming the devs when I get burned out on it. They gave us the Notice, they aren't twisting our arms and telling us that we have to get it on all of our characters in the first week of it existing. Again, the devs are NOT to blame for your compulsion to have everything on all your characters RIGHT NOW. |
It's forced grouping cut and dry. Not a new concept in MMORPG's which have a playerbase to support it. Really reminds me of LOTRO's legendary item system. Yet even that was better implemented than this idea.
Right now it looks like they lifted the idea straght out of WOW's raid of the week concept. Once again, they have a large enough playerbase, and would never release major content patches without throwing soloers a bone.
What I'd really liked about CoH is that you were never forced to group to keep advancing. Now you are forced to group or you're done.
You keep speaking of basically making your own fun. Well some of us have even exhausted the 'making our own fun' concept. There's basically nothing left for me to do. I can't advance my incarnate characters and will never be able to advance them.
Does it really matter when we knew this was coming? Does that mean I should have cancelled earlier when I heard it was coming? Was really hoping some common sense would come into play- or the large amount of solo players would cause an outcry. Unfortunately not everyone uses the forums.
Might be a soloer but it doesn't mean that I don't talk to people, know people, or even have friends in this game- because I do. There's lots of people out there, just like me, who are die hard soloers.
So it isn't about OOO I gotta have a shiny right now der de derrrr. That's just ridiculous. I haven't had ANYTHING to do since they first released this incarnate system. Which kept me busy for around 2 weeks while I got multiple characters their Alpha's slotted. Since then I've just been playing other games and waiting for the upper incarnate tiers to open. They open and there is nothing for me. Not even a long drawn out option to do it solo.
If it took a hundred times more effort to do it solo that is FINE. There just needs to be an option for people like me so we have something to do. All of my 'make your own fun' options have been exhausted. There is no new content for me. By the looks of this system there never will be new content for me. I'll be stuck with my Alpha slot and be stuck forever. The characters I WANT to play and advance will collect dust on a shelf.
So, let me see if I have this straight:
Because there is no way to advance in the Incarnate system solo NOW, that clearly means there will NEVER be a way to advance in the Incarnate system solo.
Do I have it right?
Again, it is a case of "I want it NOW, and if I can't have it NOW, I'm going to RAAAAAAGE!!!"
Approaching things with the attitude of "If they don't give me exactly what I want, exactly WHEN I want it, they clearly don't care about me." is the wrong way to approach something like this.
i19 and the Incarnate system are barely 2 months old. We have ONE slot out of the TEN we are going to eventually get. Don't you think it's a little early to be assuming that you know exactly how the rest of it is going to work?
I'd like some solo options too, because I don't have time to run TFs all the time. The difference is, I'm being patient and doing what I can do when I have time to do it, instead of jumping to the immediate conclusion that I will NEVER have the option of doing it solo.
The devs are only human, just like the rest of us. Expecting them to do everything you want the very second you want it is asking too much of anyone, especially when the people you're asking it of are under constant fire from whatever group of people they failed to please this week. And there is always a group of people they have failed to please this week. That's the nature of a game that many people play, anything you do or don't do in designing it is going to piss someone off.
Power customization, side switching, inherent Fitness, rebalancing Defender Vigilance, fixng Blaster Defiance. All of those are things that, at some point, people were absolutely convinced would never happen. They were wrong. Chances are, the people who are absolutely convinced that solo Incarnate content will never happen are wrong as well.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
It seems very unlikely to come any time soon.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
So, let me see if I have this straight:
Because there is no way to advance in the Incarnate system solo NOW, that clearly means there will NEVER be a way to advance in the Incarnate system solo. Do I have it right? Again, it is a case of "I want it NOW, and if I can't have it NOW, I'm going to RAAAAAAGE!!!" Approaching things with the attitude of "If they don't give me exactly what I want, exactly WHEN I want it, they clearly don't care about me." is the wrong way to approach something like this. i19 and the Incarnate system are barely 2 months old. We have ONE slot out of the TEN we are going to eventually get. Don't you think it's a little early to be assuming that you know exactly how the rest of it is going to work? I'd like some solo options too, because I don't have time to run TFs all the time. The difference is, I'm being patient and doing what I can do when I have time to do it, instead of jumping to the immediate conclusion that I will NEVER have the option of doing it solo. The devs are only human, just like the rest of us. Expecting them to do everything you want the very second you want it is asking too much of anyone, especially when the people you're asking it of are under constant fire from whatever group of people they failed to please this week. And there is always a group of people they have failed to please this week. That's the nature of a game that many people play, anything you do or don't do in designing it is going to piss someone off. Power customization, side switching, inherent Fitness, rebalancing Defender Vigilance, fixng Blaster Defiance. All of those are things that, at some point, people were absolutely convinced would never happen. They were wrong. Chances are, the people who are absolutely convinced that solo Incarnate content will never happen are wrong as well. |
But hey maybe it will, along with the blood of the black stream, avians, customizable granite armor, redone VEAT arcs, and all those other things they were "investigating".
Sorry. You can't keep my sub on hopes and wishes. If they said "We're working on something." I sure wouldn't complain. It's the whole "eh, maybe, but this IS an MMo, so...."
But hey, I'm sure the devs don't need to keep subs.
Here's what I don't get about people asking for a solo path for the higher tier of alpha slots. City of Heroes is an MMO, which stands for Massive Multiplayer Online. By that definition it means that you will be playing with other live people and at times will be required to interact with them in one way or another, from teaming to social interaction. To me that's the whole concept behind a MMO.
So why should a MMO dev team give a chunk of dev time to create content for the solo players on a MMO? If you want to solo a game then pop in a single player game and play to your heart's content. If you're going to play an MMO then you should come in expecting that there is going to be teaming of some sort required, whether you like or not. It's the nature of the beast.
Paragon Unleashed Forums
Twitter: @Alpha_Ryvius
Quote:
So you don't really care if they destabilize the game. Just so long as your high-population server isn't too laggy...|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
What I can't accept is how ill-conceived it was to tell the entire playerbase to do the same task force over and over again.
Last night on Virtue, Independence Port had tremendous lag and appeared to be about to crash at least twice that I saw. Getting onto Stateman's ship was a slideshow. Telling your players to gather in the same zone every single day was a bad decision. |
Your problem is the problem of ANY busy zone on a high population server. Do you gripe about lag on ship raids? Hami raids?
Quote:
| But even that's minor compared to the mind-numbing tedium of doing the same task force several times, on one character or with several. And once you've completed it on one character, that character is too powerful to find challenge in any other content in the game -- not that you can play any other high-level content, because most everyone else is grinding away at the WST. |
Quote:
| Issue 19 came with new, challenging task forces that reinvigorated the high level game. Issue 19.5 is a step backwards, instructing the playerbase to re-consume old content for even less reward. The WST is a recipe for boredom, and it will only be played for as long as people can stand doing repetitive tasks. Every player will have their limit; I hit mine in one day. |
The problem, good sir, lies with you.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
Massively multiplayer means you have lots of people on at the same time in the same environment. It does not mean FORCED TEAMING.|
Originally Posted by Unknown_User
Here's what I don't get about people asking for a solo path for the higher tier of alpha slots. City of Heroes is an MMO, which stands for Massive Multiplayer Online. By that definition it means that you will be playing with other live people and at times will be required to interact with them in one way or another, from teaming to social interaction. To me that's the whole concept behind a MMO.
|
And the Incarnate system is a single-user's journey of personal power. It's not a team buff, save that by making you more powerful, it makes your team more survivable.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
For people who have limited playtime and who can't play durig peak hours, it probably helps them get a chance at playing the TF in question.
I have been playing siince launch and have probably done only about 1/3 of the TFs. I had actually been hoping that the Incarnate system might let sufficiently poweffrul characters solo some of the older TFs because I have long felt that that was the only way I'd get to see them, given that I tend to be able to only play during the day, or for 1-2 missions per night. This means that I have to find a group willing to do TFs over the course of several nights, one or two missions at a time.
In 7 years, that hasn't happened too often.
Est sularis oth Mithas