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Maybe. But running missions without a team is as much of an action as running those same missions with a team. I'd love to hear the reasoning why one of those actions is more valid than the other.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Joining and playing on a team is an action. Choosing not to team is a decision, not an action.
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Ignoring some MMOs that auto-group you (ugh, hated that in STO,) how is "I got a blind invite and accepted" any more of an action than "I got a blind invite and declined?" BOTH are decisions. BOTH lead to actions - in one, I click accept and do whatever (and, honestly, usually get LESS of a reward, as I'm not getting the merits, etc. for finishing his arc,) in another, I send a reply. They involve different steps (and sometimes repeatedly, in the case of someone who REPEATEDLY sends you the same invite until you put them on ignore, even when you tell them you're not interested,) but both require decisions and actions. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Some people have, in fact, accused the devs of essentially bribing people to not play the game. Not factoring in the fact most players cannot play 24 hours a day and cannot play mroe than one alt per account at a time.
That's tangential to the point I was making, though, which is that most content-related activities are rewarded, so if people have to be bribed to team, they have to be bribed to play as well. Of course, the whole notion that people have to be bribed to team is nonsense. MMOs don't reward teaming because otherwise people wouldn't team. MMOs like most games award actions. Joining and playing on a team is an action. Choosing not to team is a decision, not an action. Teaming requires the extra activity of finding, joining, and playing on a team. Its rewarded accordingly. That separate from the fact that teaming is desired in MMOs collectivly, even if its not mandatory, and thus a legitimate activity to reward on that basis. I'm sure someone will come along to say that soloing is an equal activity to teaming, but that completely misses the point. By even soloers definitions, teaming requires additional effort, even if that effort is limited to making one extra decision and taking one extra action on that basis. Teaming is the superset activity: its play where the number of team members is greater than one. |
Saying teaming requires more work by virtue of being "teaming" is a faulty argument.
Now, if you'd said FORMING a team requires more work, sure. Then you ARE looking for people, etc, etc, etc. But teaming on its own is not.
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Absolutely the wrong question.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
Maybe. But running missions without a team is as much of an action as running those same missions with a team. I'd love to hear the reasoning why one of those actions is more valid than the other.
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The proper question is "What reasoning is there to encourage players, via increased and exclusive rewards, to group?"
The reasoning is to strengthen the social bonds that players create in-game. Let me share a couple of papers with you: http://www.contemporary-media.co.uk/...ssertation.pdf AND http://www.trinity.edu/adelwich/worl...ris.taylor.pdf
You can do a simple Google search and find dozens of papers on social aspects of MMORPGs.
There's more, but I want you to focus on the anecdotes in those papers. It's been studied over and over, but the people who form the strongest bonds in a game, who will continue to play long after their real affection for the game has waned are those who have formed strong bonds with other players. And honestly, you don't do that by interacting with the market or costume contests. You do that by bonding together, helping each other, most often taking on great challenges. The devs encourage grouping because people remember groups, even if no one is talking. I know several people on the Justice server simply from doing runs of TFs with them or Hami Raids. I don't know anything else about them. They could be total jerks, but they are ace players and I feel a connection by playing with them. Is it even close to the connection with my real friends and family? Hell no, but it's enough that I love playing this game and love the community of the game and especially the Justice server (I am its Overlord after all).
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Great if you're doing a study. Out in the real world, people make those bonds anyway. The people I regularly play with, I do so because we enjoyed doing so. Not because we HAD to do it. We needed no coaxing from the devs. Flip side, there are people I've *had* to group with because I wanted to do some content. (Choice, but TFs are, barring IO builds, etc, "team required,") who I've never seen again (and in some cases didn't want to.) |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Absolutely the wrong question.
The proper question is "What reasoning is there to encourage players, via increased and exclusive rewards, to group?" The reasoning is to strengthen the social bonds that players create in-game. Let me share a couple of papers with you: http://www.contemporary-media.co.uk/...ssertation.pdf AND http://www.trinity.edu/adelwich/worl...ris.taylor.pdf |
Now if they'd study the difference between "Hey, guys, want to play some baseball?" and "YOU ###### WILL PLAY ###### BASEBALL OR ELSE!" which is more relevant (see: "Play Trials Or Be Locked Out") to the discussion. Maybe YOU like being told what to do. I tend to find being forced through something makes the experience less enjoyable, not more.
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Well some people make those bonds. Others need to be coaxed. You don't have to believe me. Take the time, learn about it.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Great if you're doing a study. Out in the real world, people make those bonds anyway. The people I regularly play with, I do so because we enjoyed doing so. Not because we HAD to do it. We needed no coaxing from the devs. Flip side, there are people I've *had* to group with because I wanted to do some content. (Choice, but TFs are, barring IO builds, etc, "team required,") who I've never seen again (and in some cases didn't want to.)
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| Now if they'd study the difference between "Hey, guys, want to play some baseball?" and "YOU ###### WILL PLAY ###### BASEBALL OR ELSE!" which is more relevant (see: "Play Trials Or Be Locked Out") to the discussion. Maybe YOU like being told what to do. I tend to find being forced through something makes the experience less enjoyable, not more. |
I don't remember anyone screaming "FORCED TEAMING!" at baseball practice, but I'm getting old so it's possible I forgot.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Funny how you seem to think that it is a "condition" that people "suffer" and how you also think it is "sad"....|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But as sad as it is to suffer frm that kind of mental block, it's unreasonable to expect the developers of an MMO to design their game around people with that condition - to maximize the return on their work, they need to create a game that appeals to the majority of MMO players.
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almost as funny as you think introverts are a "minority"
Seriously, I'm laughing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rumwq...eature=related
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
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Now imagine that, in order to graduate, you *had* to have a letter in band, another letter in sports, and have held a position on the school newspaper, as opposed to the *optional* position they currently hold (where you *can* play sports, join the chess club or whatever, or you can ignore it.) |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
See the difference here is you see a penalty where I do not. You are not penalized by not teaming, you just don't earn certain rewards. When I was in high school, you earned a letter from playing on a sport's team or joining the band. There was no requirement in the school's rules that you had to join a team, but if you wanted to wear the school's emblem you had to play on a team (or play an instrument in an ensemble).
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That's what's being done here.
No teaming? You don't get the extra enhancements, pseudo-levels and powers. You get to stay a junior, going back to the school metaphor. Doesn't matter if you're getting straight As in your classes, even taking AP/prep courses, *you don't play baseball/play in band, etc, you don't graduate.*
Sounds penalizing to me.
(And, as an aside, if I wanted to 'wear the school's emblem," all I ever had to do was go to the school store and buy a T-shirt, backpack, hat, or whatever. Still can, in fact, via the alumni association.)
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First of all “nonsense” is pretty strong, but fine. Call me nonsense-player then. I’m ok with that. I can tell you personally…|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Of course, the whole notion that people have to be bribed to team is nonsense. MMOs don't reward teaming because otherwise people wouldn't team.
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I’m going to team. I am. You (general you, not you…you) don’t want me to. Because I’ll team the minimum 3-4 times for the WST (if I remember the abbreviation), and go off on my merry way. Worse off will be if there is some sort of new Incarnate-Merit (not shards, I mean something new) to make this more than a “do 4 times and forget” activity in order to get the Ultra-Rare.
Why?
Because, that’s means I’m going to group with you. I’m a L50 tanker with no taunt. I don’t need more details than that. Taunt is almost essential in group play. Almost but not quite useless in solo. Substitute any other gotta have / gotta avoid examples from other builds / powers / archetypes (ex = an Empathy person with no rez or heal).
And, if the mostly solo-ers join groups, some are going to suck… badly. *I* am going to suck…badly. And, I have no intention to learn any team skills, skills that I’m going to use, like, 4+ times a year or so, just to not suck. Selfish, yes, but that’s how it is.
So, yeah, you’re going to have a bunch of clueless soloers (not that all soloers are clueless, but it only takes ONE to ruin a mission, Master Of… or some other sensitive protection mission) teaming with you, afk-ing, doing the wrong thing, getting lost, tripping a mine and ruining a Master of Tin Mage (I’ve done, all the above, sad to say), not doing it on purpose just to be a you-know-what… But because… that’s the only option they have OR, worse for some people, that's how they choose to play on purpose, and it's not against EULA, so they don't have to change.
I mean this with no disrespect, but I hope we never group together, because I will unwittingly ruin your mission / TF / night, and I don’t think I’m alone in that. If I am alone, and you’re right that most people want the team part out of enjoyment, and that most people know / want / know-how to team, great, just put “Fiery Redeemer” on your avoid-list. Sadly, I suspect when Rare+ comes, and more team / TF comes, and CDO (that’s OCD, in alphabetical order, as it should be, heh) people like me that team only for the badge / unlock / goody… it’s not going to be fun to team with us, and esp. me.
But hey, if it’s just me, then sucks to be me. I just don’t want it to be “sucks to be you” if a bunch of 99% soloers try the TF for the goody, and ruin your night. Because, speaking personally, I WILL AFK, get lost, get confused, not because I’m trying to, but because that’s how I play, and that’s how me, and my computer are. If you (again, not you…you… heh… I need to learn another English word, if there is one, for the “general you”) want to call me lazy and stupid, they both apply. But I sadly won’t learn new skills, for a GAME that I play to unwind. And, most people like me won’t admit to it up front. I mean, who goes to job interview and says they are a below average worker? Teaming is a tiny bit like that in the recruit phase. I certainly had to go the 20 questions of "Did you ever do this before? Can you speed through it? Can you keep 1 AV on you while we deal with another". (Sidebar = When I said NO to all 3, got invited anyways, sucked, and was YELLED at for it, I was like... "What part of NO x3 did you not understand?"... and that's a big part of why I solo, boys and girls)
Speaking straight to Arcanaville, you’ve been fine on the boards, so I bear you no ill will and I hope you avoid people like me. However, there's a mischievous part of me, and I’ll admit that I hope SOME of these posters team with 5 Fiery Redeemers for a week, and so I can watch them go
“Please GOD. Give those soloers a solo option. Please! I never want to play with them again!!” Cuz it’s not like we wear signs and the ignore list has a limit. Something to think about.
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Is it sad that there are left-handed people that can't get over their mental block and just learn how to be right-handed like "normal people?" Introversion is a similarly innate trait, and attempts at forcing extroversion will cause problems much like forcing a southpaw to conform completely with northpaw expectations.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But as sad as it is to suffer frm that kind of mental block, it's unreasonable to expect the developers of an MMO to design their game around people with that condition - to maximize the return on their work, they need to create a game that appeals to the majority of MMO players.
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Again, introversion by itself is not:
- shyness (I'm introverted but have regular contact with other people that I enjoy doing. It just isn't every night.)
- social anxiety (if I have this, it hasn't affected my day to day life one whit!)
- something to "overcome" (see below)
- a mental illness or other negative condition
- finding social activities "unfun" (tiring due to the mental effort, yes)
Primarily on Victory, Virtue, Justice, and Guardian, in that order.
Member of the Pride public global channel
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And with the only other option being to wait for I20, you can also say "and if you want to graduate by taking a written test for those courses you have to wait until summer school starts." |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
No teaming? You don't get the extra enhancements, pseudo-levels and powers. You get to stay a junior, going back to the school metaphor. Doesn't matter if you're getting straight As in your classes, even taking AP/prep courses, *you don't play baseball/play in band, etc, you don't graduate.* )
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(I know there's no written test for a sports course, but there can be for band/choir, so if you're going to try to cite me on that one you can stow it.)
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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"You" is plural, referring to a group. "Thou" is singular, referring to an individual. However, as in many languages, "You" was also used to be a formal singular, and in time, the formal became the norm, and we lost the distinction between "thou" and "you". Because of this, people have been inventing other words to replace the lost usage of "you"; "y'all" (or "you all") seems to be winning the popularity contest these days.
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Originally Posted by Fiery_Redeemer
(again, not you
you
heh
I need to learn another English word, if there is one, for the general you)
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Solo options are not coming with i20. Please stop spreading the misinformation that they are.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
And with the only other option being to wait for I20,
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Did I say "solo option?"
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Solo options are not coming with i20. Please stop spreading the misinformation that they are.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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I just use "Snausages" in that instance. It gets peoples attention. Maybe not in a good way, but I'm sure y'all can understand... >.>|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
"You" is plural, referring to a group. "Thou" is singular, referring to an individual. However, as in many languages, "You" was also used to be a formal singular, and in time, the formal became the norm, and we lost the distinction between "thou" and "you". Because of this, people have been inventing other words to replace the lost usage of "you"; "y'all" (or "you all") seems to be winning the popularity contest these days.
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(I <3 little tangents like this. And the one that gets me - "All y'all." *sigh*)
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The only people that annoy me in-game really are people that seem to be completely indecisive about what they want to do *and* attempt to lead teams, and people that have a massively inflated opinion of their capabilities in-game and then demonstrate a huge gap between those claims and their performance. If you're a tanker and you don't have taunt, and you can't grab aggro from halfway across the room, and you tell me you don't have taunt and can't grab aggro from across the room, you'll have no problem from me. I just won't play my blaster half way across the room and expect aggro control. But if you don't just wait at the door chatting and jump in and fight, I won't care if you lack taunt, AoE, mez protection, or pants. You pack break frees and I will look up at the ceiling the whole mission.|
Originally Posted by Fiery_Redeemer
Speaking straight to Arcanaville, youve been fine on the boards, so I bear you no ill will and I hope you avoid people like me. However, there's a mischievous part of me, and Ill admit that I hope SOME of these posters team with 5 Fiery Redeemers for a week, and so I can watch them go
Please GOD. Give those soloers a solo option. Please! I never want to play with them again!! Cuz its not like we wear signs and the ignore list has a limit. Something to think about. |
As to the "nonsense" quote, I should have perhaps stated more clearly that it was nonsense to believe that devs believe they have to intentionally bribe people to team. Team rewards are not teaming bribes. Some people might be so averse to teaming that they will only do so for the rewards. Those people technically need to be bribed to team. But the devs don't deliberately try to make people who are averse to teaming chase bribes for teaming.
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Taking a test is not a group activity, as are band, choir, and sports. You didn't say it, but you implied it.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Did I say "solo option?"
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Look, I've since realized I've been on the wrong frequency about the whole solo thing, so I'm well aware of what's coming and what's not. I'd appreciate if you didn't assume things about what I say just to bolster your own point.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Taking a test is not a group activity, as are band, choir, and sports. You didn't say it, but you implied it.
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My argument remains, regardless of what you think I "implied":
Until I20, the only way to get the upper Alpha tiers is to do the WST, something that not all of us have time for/want to do (I fall in the former). When I20 drops, there will be more options. Being told to forget it or wait is, quite honestly, a real dick move.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
I'm hopeful that the i20 incarnate trials will be fairly loose affairs, much like the Praetoria zone events, where you can show up and contribute, and gain many of the same rewards and key elements needed for the upper incarnate tiers even if you're not technically teamed with others.
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Well, they've not actually said that they aren't - they've just said that I20 has Incarnate Trials in it.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Solo options are not coming with i20.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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And the devs don't need my money or to stay competitive with that much newer and far more appealing to new players MMO.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I thought loyalty to cruelty and oppression was your thing?
 You don't really need endgame content either  |
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Untill I20? Until atleast I21. If you think I20's trials and raid content on the BAF will somehow be soloable, well, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Look, I've since realized I've been on the wrong frequency about the whole solo thing, so I'm well aware of what's coming and what's not. I'd appreciate if you didn't assume things about what I say just to bolster your own point.
My argument remains, regardless of what you think I "implied": Until I20, the only way to get the upper Alpha tiers is to do the WST, something that not all of us have time for/want to do (I fall in the former). When I20 drops, there will be more options. Being told to forget it or wait is, quite honestly, a real dick move. |
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K. The pants thing almost cost me a monitor via a spewed drink. That was a good one. And thank you for your reply. I sometime wish more people in-game had your sense of decorum. I appreciate your time on this matter. Pants... sorry... that's was awesome...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
But if you don't just wait at the door chatting and jump in and fight, I won't care if you lack taunt, AoE, mez protection, or pants.
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I'm not against having a solo option for the level shift incarnate stuff, and even more than that I do think that they should provide one, even if it takes a bunch of time longer. That being said I think there's a lot of hyperbole in this thread about not having it. The plethora of solo options don't go away just because there's a new shiny that you can only get by teaming. One, I might add, that really only matters when looking at the stuff being an incarnate is useful for which, thus far, is all teamed content. The level shift will be a huge boon to that. In the rest of the game it will be overkill. Yes, you'll be more powerful, but like most high end IO builds, for the most part it's bringing a gun to a knife fight (and most of my 50's are IO'd). Especially since there IS no other end game right now.
And as for the end game they're kind of in a crunch. There are people who will be mad if they don't add story arcs for the lower levels (especially redside). I bet there will be people who are mad that there's nothing to do goldside after level 20, and there's a growing population of level 50's that have done everything there is to do and everyone wants them to fulfill what they specifically want and they only have limited resources to accomplish this. They said they're looking into it, and while I've been a part of this game, the dev team has been nothing short of amazing at delivering what the players want, even if it takes them some time to do it (power customization anyone?)
I don't doubt that eventually they will add solo incarnate stuff; it makes too much sense to have a non-TF storyarc about it. In the meantime, if you're soloing at the slow pace that I've heard most people talking about, how in the world have you gotten the 2nd tier of the alpha slot on all of your characters? Especially since many of you have indicated that you don't want to do the current incarnate content anyway. Should they add solo incarnate content without adding a way to complete the alpha slot in a solo fashion I will be surprised. But right now it kind of just seems like an over reaction.
And just for the record, Fiery Redeemer, I've found most teams have been pretty forgiving of people with time constraints/builds on TF's. I'm usually so scrapper locked (even on my non-scrappers, which are the majority of my characters) that I don't even notice where everyone else is on a TF. As long as people are up front about their time limitations, I've found people are quite understanding.
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I missed no such point. I do plenty of soloing AND teaming, depending on what I want to do at the time.|
Originally Posted by Stormbird
Way to completely and totally miss the point. The person I was replying to was one of the "it's an MMO, why would anyone solo" crowd.
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| And no, the Incarnate content is not "the carpool lane." If you really think so, it's obvious you have no idea why the way the content is being presented and gated like it is is upsetting to people. |
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| If there were non-trial (and don't give me "trial may just mean one person!") content, then maybe the analogy would hold, as you'd get to the same point faster by teaming - much like the rest of the game. |
So... if you've made your point... and the devs are listening... then why is this thread still going exactly?
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Except in this case there are concrete rails blocking everything but the carpool lane. People are expecting "you go faster with a group", but are unhappy with "no group = **** off".