Soloability and End Game

There's this notion in a lot of posts that because the game is an MMO, that means people must team together. What is this, written in the stars? No. Is there an MMO Standards Committee that will shut the game down if there's people in it who don't like to team? No. This is just reading the meaning one wants out of the term. This is an online game that's scaled to support a lot of players at once. Massively Multiplayer, and Online. Whether they team cooperatively, merely chat, coexist quietly, or completely ignore each other is irrelevant. In a natural human community, there's a diverse set of roles and methods of interaction that are all healthy.

Let me turn the question around. This is an MMO, why shouldn't everything be obtainable solo? The people who like teaming will still team; and certainly don't need incentives to do so. The people who don't like to team shouldn't be "incentivized" to play any differently than they naturally prefer.

As I see it, the reward structure is already very much unequal, and without a lot of justification. Just because someone prefers to team, they level faster and gain other rewards faster, gain access to more content, and now, they'll have faster, easier, and less risky access to the highest rewards in the game. Why is a soloer's hours of play less worthy of reward and progression than a teamer's? Because if too many people solo, teamers won't find teams? Like that would ever happen. And even if it did, I feel incentivizing rewards and gating progress on that basis would be immoral -- treating soloers as mere tools to support teamer's game environment. The soloers aren't asking for anything that's unreasonable. And perhaps, the development staff will realize this is something important and distinguishing to their product and playerbase, and do the right thing.

I team quite a bit; and I solo a lot too. I'm a natural introvert, though not very extreme. For myself, I'll get the end-game rewards one way or another. But I understand the soloer's poor treatment, and moreso, I'm disheartened by a lot of the attitudes being displayed in these threads.

But as sad as it is to suffer frm that kind of mental block, it's unreasonable to expect the developers of an MMO to design their game around people with that condition - to maximize the return on their work, they need to create a game that appeals to the majority of MMO players.

No one's asking them to stop making Task Forces. All that's being requested is that rewards that are viewed by many as character advancement (and not just optional bonuses - we have been told explicitly that Incarnate content will be balanced for and require Incarnate abilities) not be exclusive to Task Forces.

It's the exclusivity that is the issue, not the content itself.

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

Only Tier 1 of the Alpha slot is required - Tier 2, 3 and 4 are optional, and teams have been smashing the 2 new TFs with just Tier 1 avatars.
The Apex and Tin Mage TFs with Tier 1 are the Maria Jenkins arc with SOs.
The Apex and Tin Mage TFs with Tier 2, 3 and 4 are the Maria Jenkins arc with IO sets and purples.

Yup. Also makes my subscription moot-ish.

But then you'll NEVER get all those vet rewards!

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

*shrug* I'm not interested in playing a game whose idea of "end game for all" is "raid grind like all the other MMOs", so I don't really need Veteran Rewards, do I?

I thought loyalty to cruelty and oppression was your thing?

You don't really need endgame content either

'Tis true. If you're fine playing and paying for the game the way it is now, it's not like the stuff you enjoy is going to be removed to make room for the team-based Incarnate content that you refuse to play.

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

Because sometimes you can't find people to do the team content. During my time in #1 Fantasy MMO I worked a job that only afforded me playtime in the wee hours of the morning. Guess what?

I couldn't do crap because all the content that would improve my character required a team, and (surprise!) no one's on at 3 in the morning in World of-- I mean #1 Fantasy MMO.

The reason you're hearing all this uproar is because, up until now, getting to "the top" as it were was a soloable thing, especially with the introduction of V/A-merits. Now, we are being forced to team if we want to continue to "the top." And don't give me that "Well just don't team/just wait for I20" garbage. Being told to sit out until later is insulting, especially when we were promised a way to solo the Incarnate content. Yeah, sure, it'll come in I20, but it's a kick in the pants to be told "well other people can do it right now, just not you since you have a job/have a kid/have real-life obligations."

That's not been promised.

Just because it's an MMO does NOT mean that you should have to team for your character's progression.

I've been playing the game the way it is now on the assumption that I could become a totally awesome, top-tier character all by myself. Since they're moving the top tier, this will cease to be true.

I'm kind of tired of this argument: "they're not taking anything away". Yes they are. They're taking away my ability to contend in the top tiers of the game, by moving the top tier of the game higher and putting boundaries in between.

I don't need end game; but I don't "need" to play the game, either. The two are coupled: I get end game, or I don't play.

Sorry in advance, but after 11 pages of posts this question is exactly what makes other players so frustrating to be around. If you truely want an answer to your question read the posts. If you don't why post question?

I am much like gec72 I don't mind forums, because it is easy to walk away from any threads you don't like as opposed to in game walking out on a TF/SF is a big deal.

I don't mind helping people learn the game but I don't care for teaming both due to the interactions and due to the fact that the game actually plays BETTER when not on a full team. You develop strategies beside everyone attack anything or porting team through mission killing key mobs so you can complete TF in 15 minutes. The game actually has some very cool strategies possible solo or on small teams or 2 or maybe 3 that don't work for full teams because there are too many mobs.

I find teams incredibly boring and wouldn't still be playing if that were the only way to play CoH. WoW is like that and I lasted a month.

MMO literally say the game is Massive Multiple Online Players - It doesn't in any way say that those players have to ever interact. The best thing about MMOs IMO is that there is always new content. If I get an offline game, even a really good one like Diablo or Fallout, once you are done, you are done. There isn't ever going to be anything new to do again.

CoH also is one of the first games I've seen online that really got the different builds play differently right. Playing a Fire/Fire Blaster or a Assault Rifle/Traps Blaster play very differently (solo anyway in a mad donneybrook TF maybe not).

Personally if 50+ content requires teams I just won't play 50+ content. As stated if I can't enjoy myself playing why play? If the game moves the direction where all the updates are for high level teams I will eventually move on to another game. This game has always been one of the best soloable games out there and if they decide that players like me aren't a priority then I have no reason for loyalty.

Hopefully that is not what we are looking at though. At this point I have a slotted Incarnate without teaming (well except for 1 ship raid).

BTW remember they have to REWARD teaming, this means people as a whole don't want to do it and have to be bribed.

That design decision is only relevant to people who intend to play the Incarnate content.

And its also an overgeneralization: at that level of broadness its also true that the standard content is actually balanced around purples. One specific tool used to balance standard content is the datamining of the average performance of all players that play it. Some percentage of those players have purples and pull the average upwards. Thus, all inventions have some indirect impact on overall game difficulty. However, the devs have specifically said that inventions are optional, and content won't be specifically designed to require some specific level of power from them.

In the same way, Incarnate content will almost certainly be balanced for a level of power that the devs feel is achievable in some way by players will access to the Incarnate system, but I doubt it is being balanced explicitly around any particular ability. So except for actually *having* Alpha slotted with *anything* there isn't any specific design decision I'm aware of where the devs are explicitly designing content under the premise that players specifically have any particular ability. Including level shift, by the way.

Initially, Incarnate content will be designed based around some reasonable guestimates of the correct initial difficulty. However, in the long run Incarnate content will not be designed around Incarnate abilities but rather Incarnates themselves and what they can do in the actual game. Not fundamentally different from how the standard game is designed now.

Technically, they have to reward practically all content, so by your logic this must mean players as a whole don't want to actually play the game.

Are there no drops or XP on solo missions?

Day jobs anyone?

Please note that at no point in my post did I invoke the Meyers-Briggs Type indicator. Nearly every modern theory of personality includes extroversion/introversion as key traits whether as a single continuum, or as dominant and secondary traits (as in Jungian theory). I am personally uncomfortable with the MBTI as an assessment because of it relies solely on self-report. My point was to define introversion as it exists in every theory of personality that I am aware of and not as some sort of social disorder.



There was no hyperbole in my statement. Please note that the example I used as something an introvert may find repugnant was "teaming with strangers," not merely interacting with people. While it may seem a fine distinction, it is still a distinction. I personally know a number of people who also play City of Heroes/Villains; this means that I can nearly always find someone I know to team with if I so desire. Frankly, I don't really mind teaming with people I don't know, nor do I mind PUGs, but I can certainly see where some people would find either to diminish their enjoyment of the game, or even remove it entirely.

Please also note that I never argued for solo content, or dismissed the WST and whatever's coming in I20. I defined a term that was being used incorrectly and pointed out some differences in introverts that are did not seem to be readily apparent to some extroverts. I personally, am thrilled about the WST, and eagerly awaiting the next morsel of information about I20. But as a fairly strongly expressed introvert, I can certainly see where others may not be so thrilled, and I think it's important to note that those people are not necessarily suffering from any sort of psychological disorder.

If people need to be 'bribed' to run it, perhaps it should get more attention beforehand. People will run it, yes - then forget it. How many Katie's are run?

Assuming you're old enough to drive and own a car, do you wait until you can fill up the one to eight (or more) extra seats in your vehicle before you go somewhere, or do you sometimes drive off by yourself?

Just because the capability is there doesn't mean it MUST be used every single time, or that not using it is "strange."

For what it's worth, after reading the 'plans' so far, as far as I'm concerned the Incarnate system doesn't exist. I have new 50s after last weekend (yay last few levels done,) but I'm not going to bother even unlocking alpha. There's no point to even starting the system for me.

Not sure which way you're going with this. I see Katie Hannon TFs starting up almost every time I'm logged in.

The regular game is the car. The Incarnate Content is the carpool lane. You're required to bring others, or else you're going to get yourself in trouble.

A valid option. I've only got Alpha on 4 of my 50s, and don't plan to get it on the others, at least not as things stand right now.

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

I think you should run Ramiel's arc on all your 50s, so at least you'll start picking up Shards on them, even if you don't plan on using them right now.

I don't. Used to see them run constantly. Why? Not because they're fun, typically (though I think so,) but because of the reward people could get speeding though them. Then they went to merits, dropped it to - what, two now? - and it seems nobody's interested even when I try to start one up.

Way to completely and totally miss the point. The person I was replying to was one of the "it's an MMO, why would anyone solo" crowd.

And no, the Incarnate content is not "the carpool lane." If you really think so, it's obvious you have no idea why the way the content is being presented and gated like it is is upsetting to people. If there were non-trial (and don't give me "trial may just mean one person!") content, then maybe the analogy would hold, as you'd get to the same point faster by teaming - much like the rest of the game.

Some people have, in fact, accused the devs of essentially bribing people to not play the game. Not factoring in the fact most players cannot play 24 hours a day and cannot play mroe than one alt per account at a time.

That's tangential to the point I was making, though, which is that most content-related activities are rewarded, so if people have to be bribed to team, they have to be bribed to play as well.

Of course, the whole notion that people have to be bribed to team is nonsense. MMOs don't reward teaming because otherwise people wouldn't team. MMOs like most games award actions. Joining and playing on a team is an action. Choosing not to team is a decision, not an action. Teaming requires the extra activity of finding, joining, and playing on a team. Its rewarded accordingly. That separate from the fact that teaming is desired in MMOs collectivly, even if its not mandatory, and thus a legitimate activity to reward on that basis.

I'm sure someone will come along to say that soloing is an equal activity to teaming, but that completely misses the point. By even soloers definitions, teaming requires additional effort, even if that effort is limited to making one extra decision and taking one extra action on that basis. Teaming is the superset activity: its play where the number of team members is greater than one.

Unless you are on a crappy team, teaming is actually easier in many ways, in terms of content difficulty. That is also completely irrelevant.

The reason why MMOs consider rewarding teaming to be fair is the same reason they reward combat over avoiding combat almost all the time. You get XP for defeating things. You do not get XP for finding ways to not defeat them. Even though this game has tried to be as solo-friendly as is reasonable, it still promotes teaming, just like it promotes combat. People assume rewards are supposed to be balanced around "risk" even if risk is ill-defined or completely undefined. That's one factor. But another factor is rewards are implemented to promote desired activity. That's why you cannot just make up your own challenges and get rewarded for them. You can't decide to solo Lusca with Brawl and then get six million merits if you succeed. The devs have no intention of rewarding that activity, so you don't get any rewards for that activity. Similarly, solo activities have certain rewards. Teamed activities have other rewards, and some are higher than the solo equivalents. Some are a little higher, some dramatically so. That's not bribery. That's just how all reward systems are created.

I am unaware of any dev team anywhere that states or signals the believe that teaming is not a superset activity above soloing, and is thus entitled to higher rewards as a consequence of being superset activity, completely separate from difficulty. But if anyone knows of such a team, I'd like a pointer to it, because that would be an interesting group of people to question on the subjject. "Novel" doesn't begin to describe what that sort of philosophy would have to entail in terms of game design of an MMO. Its probably a much more difficult thing to pull off successfully than "level-less" design.