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But they don't have to learn anything |
Originally Posted by BigFish
GG, you're the last person I would have thought that would resort to this "LRN2PLA" nonsense
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Keep in mind this is only a bridge until I20, once that hits, like BS has said, there will be other means to attain these items which i'm assuming will be more solo friendly.|
Originally Posted by Dark Scholar
Black Scorpion's announcement that running the Weekly Strike Target is necessary to obtain a "Notice of the Well", a requirement for the Rare and eventually Very Rare Alpha Slot content is concerning to me.
I'm a mostly solo player. Not that I'm against team content - I often team, and every once in a great while join a task force, but most of them are so long, and I'm in that category of player that can't play for more than maybe an hour or two a night. I'm hoping that it's taken into consideration that not everyone can participate in 3+ hours of gameplay at once, because as it stands, it feels like this is some end-game content that I may be cut off from as a result. |
Secondly, pretty much all late-game TFs (excluding Shadow Shard) can be easily completed with in 1-2 hours. I often will run an LGTF or ITF which would take no more than 1 to 1.5 hours to complete even if we clear each mission for shards. All you will need is a half decent team of people who have perhaps ran through these TFs before and you won't have a problem.
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The only other means mentioned were trials. Trials are team content. Granted, "packs" are usually paid for, so there's some misleading naming going on here already, but I'm not holding out hope, especially since multi-team content has been officially announced at a meet-and-greet somewhere.|
Originally Posted by The_Static_Man
Keep in mind this is only a bridge until I20, once that hits, like BS has said, there will be other means to attain these items which i'm assuming will be more solo friendly.
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| Secondly, pretty much all late-game TFs (excluding Shadow Shard) can be easily completed with in 1-2 hours. I often will run an LGTF or ITF which would take no more than 1 to 1.5 hours to complete even if we clear each mission for shards. All you will need is a half decent team of people who have perhaps ran through these TFs before and you won't have a problem. |
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Of course, I can't explain why everyone likes every MMO: there's a lot of diversity in how people approach MMOs. I'm thinking more of the trend. I'm sure there are a lot of people who prefer one MMOs character creator over CoHs, for example, but no other game is as identified with its character creator as CoH. Why its a strength of this game, and why no one else tries to figure that out and steal it, is an interesting question.|
Originally Posted by Pebblebrook
I would make a slight disagreement to a possible implication that other games don't ask you to make a personal investment at character creation. To me they do, but not all of that investment is upfront (creation).
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Part of it is that this is not a plug and play decision. We have "gearless" costumes. For the most part, our appearance isn't driven by our capabilities. That means we can envision our appearance almost from the start. Sure: there are unlockables and such, but if you want to wield a sword, you wield a sword. If you don't, you don't. If you want armor, you have armor. If you want to be half-naked (or, possibly 99.836% naked) but still be invulnerable, you can be. You don't have to earn armor because armor is functional. You wear armor because you envision yourself wearing armor. Even if you're an empathy defender.
You can't really have our costume editor and have functional costumes in your game as a practical matter. You have to choose. If you choose to have gear be visible - which is not a bad choice in and of itself - you lock yourself out of having nonfunctional gear appearances (STO tried to have it both ways there, but I don't think they were really successful at it). Similarly, you cannot say "choose carefully after careful deliberation, but if you want to change it later no problem." You can't have both. So maybe the problem is that the lessons CoH has learned are lessons other games don't even want to learn.
Since I said what CoH figured out, I'll tell you what WoW figured out that CoH sort of did as well, but WoW took it to astronomical levels. WoW (Blizzard) figured out that while the hard core players are your evangelists, the casual players pay the bills. WoW does not have twelve million hard core raiders. If even one percent of them are hard core players I would be amazed. WoW is eleven and a half million people that play because their cousin Vinny plays, and half a million people maybe that fall asleep at the keyboard. And this only works if, in spite of what some people say, in spite of what CoH players used to say way back when, WoW is very, very, very friendly to casual players. Not in all areas, but in enough of them. WoW is an MMO ramjet. WoW makes so much money on the 99% casual players that it can afford to make content targeted at the hardcore 1%, who then become the people who evangelize the game to other casual players who become the fuel for the WoW engine.
There's a reason the system requirements for WoW are still almost pathetically low. Higher system requirements would starve the ramjet of fuel.
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Then it's fair to assume you also don't agree with the fact that teams of players get a multiplyer added to their overall XP gain dependant on the number of team members on a team? Because that's how levels 1-49 work, and by that same token, the shard drop rate is upped for teams in order to "extrapolate" similar advancement at "51 and up".
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I don't agree with the premise that teams - aside from the mechanic of getting components from Task Forces - should have any advantage in shard generation over soloers.
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"Superman died fighting Doomsday because he allowed his toggles to drop, and didn't beat Doomsday before Unstoppable wore off, sad really..."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Canonical MMO design theory is to addict players to gameplay: to the pursuit of loot, to raiding, to PvP, to running dungeons. To acquiring gear, power, and stats. CoH attempts to addict players to characters. From the very beginning it asks the player "who are you" and "what do you look like?". It asks you to create a unique name, and make up a bio. Even if you don't want to write one, you are subtly asked to think about what kind of character you are when it asks you to pick an origin, and even an archetype. The fact that the game basically says "you can't change origin or archetype, so choose carefully" forces you to actually think about who and what your character is going to be before you even play a single minute of it. The game asks you to make a personal investment.
One of the great ironies I think about CoH is that when people say "my character is such and such, and I don't want to be limited by this or that" and in particular complain about not wanting to play the early levels before you get "the powers you are supposed to have" or want to be able to change power sets or archetypes because "they're wrong" I think they are indirectly and not deliberately confirming why those things are so important. They make players conceptualize their characters before they ever log in. With most MMOs you don't know, and have no preconceived notion about what your character is eventually going to become. But in City of Heroes, you know. You know because the game *asks* you. And that sort of personal investment in characters and not gameplay is something that I still think is unique to CoH. It's something I don't even see to the same degree in CO, CoX's kissing cousin. CO takes the critical detour of saying "you can be whatever you want to be, so don't worry about it now." There are pros and cons there, but I believe the critical con is that you lose that early opportunity to ask the players to make an investment up front. The character costume editor is often lauded as part of the reason for CoX's success, but I believe that it is only a tool serving the larger purpose: it asks you to invest in your character. It's part of a whole. The other thing I think CoX does right is to recognize that the fundamental unit of community isn't the team, or even the guild. It's everyone that plays at about the same time with shared interests. In other words, it's the friends list. It's the global channel. For a game as fragmented as it is, and with a relatively low population, and heavily instanced, it would be easy for the playerbase to disintegrate. It doesn't even though the game doesn't force us to be in a supergroup to get anything done, and it doesn't force us to find perennial team mates that we can build constant teaming relationships with, because teaming is critical. It let's us play however we want, but still reach out and find other nut jobs like ourselves. It let's us badge hunt, or LFT, or just ask what's happening. Or we can be totally silent but join teams being announced. The game probably owes more to global channels for it's continued survival that it does expansions. Whenever you see an MMO claim that "character customization" is a priority to them, but the game does not ask the player the Vorlon question: Who Are You? within one minute of starting up, it doesn't understand the point to customization. The point is to make a connection between the player and the character and to do that, apparently not so obviously, THE CHARACTER HAS TO EXIST, at least in the mind of the player. It cannot be an amorphous lump of possibilities. And when you see an MMO focus on raid queues and voice acting but is weak on ways for it's players to communicate with each other, you know they aren't trying to give players the tools to build communities of their own design. For all of CoX's weaknesses, and it has more than a few, these are it's two greatest strengths in my opinion, and no one has yet thought to really steal them and especially improve on them. I'm not saying, by the way, that all MMOs have to do these things to be successful. WoW took a different path to success entirely (but still shares similarities with CoX in other areas I think CoX also does well in). But I think many MMOs don't just fail to steal these ideas, they don't replace them with anything interesting of their own. They don't steal, and they don't innovate. They leave it to chance. And chance is not generous. |
I would snip this for brevity and all, but honestly, this is the single greatest post I've ever read from anyone on the CoH forums in my almost-69 months of playing this game. I now see what it was, fundamentally about CoH that truely attracted me the day I made my first character.
I now see what it was that fundamentally was wrong (for me) with CO beyond all the other things. Why I wanted to like it, but simply did not, now I see why.
Also, Vorlons were referenced, and frankly, this does not happen enough, anywhere.
"Superman died fighting Doomsday because he allowed his toggles to drop, and didn't beat Doomsday before Unstoppable wore off, sad really..."
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I would bet you dollars to doughnuts that you assume wrong. Not only is the "Strike Pack" announcement very much the diametrically opposite of "solo friendly," but nothing we've ever heard of I20 in any way, shape or form suggests that that will have solo-friendly Incarnate content in it, either. Nothing, furthermore, that any developer has ever said in regards to any part of the Incarnate system has even so much as resembled a suggestion that solo-friendly activities will ever be considered for the Incarnate system. From the very start, they set out to create the City of Heroes raid grind equivalent, and that seems to be precisely what they're doing.|
Originally Posted by The_Static_Man
Keep in mind this is only a bridge until I20, once that hits, like BS has said, there will be other means to attain these items which i'm assuming will be more solo friendly.
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Oh, sure, occasionally you'd see things like "Oh, well, we might potentially at some point see about maybe considering solo play, perhaps. But on the other hand, this is an MMO so tough cookies." That's about as far as you can go towards suggesting there will be solo activities while making it perfectly clear that there won't be, in such a way that people can't hold you to your words later on.
Will we EVER have solo Incarnate abilities? I don't know. Maybe in 10 years. But from the way things are looking right now, not any time soon. Not until the whole system is done and over with and years have passed and they turn around to reevaluate if they can't improve it. It took over two years for AVs in solo missions to start scaling down into elite bosses. I don't foresee it taking any less time for solo play regarding Incarnates to so much as be considered.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Mmm...
Having not experienced I19.5 Striker, I can not witness about attaining the upper alphas in solo mode. But for i19 and the lower Alphas, its very soloable, tedius and long to achieve, but do-able.
It is do-able, because you can earn shards by defeating any mobs that are 50+, I have even gotten shards while doing my routine TIP missions. Since the incarnate system allows you to combine or transform shards into any component either rare or common, there is no issue over the ability of any of us being able to achieve lower tier alpha acquisition.
But I do have an observation over soloability and end game.
I do recognize that some ATs such as melee can naturally solo extremely well, as a whole they are incredibly well balanced and powered through their inherent power sets to solo with out much of a challenge if any at all. Frankly any of my tankers can do anything you got there at +0/x1/Y/Y and not break a sweat, I do put a little attention when I go +4/x8/Y/Y but even then I can play somewhat carelessly and still survive the surprise.
Ranged ATs, also regarded as "support" ATs (insinuates of a not for prime play but made for side-kick roles instead), by not having unconditional protections they must rely on conditional protections for their survival, also their conditional protections are questionably reliable upon current game evolution and design trends, and often not well rounded power wise (about half of the melee ATs have access to self heal through their primary or secondary power sets). Like everything each AT has exceptions where they are better or less worse power rounded than others. Because just about everything in the game has mez, and "support" has no unconditional protection against it, the challenge level a "support" experiences is substantially greater than a melee which as a norm does not even have to worry about it the very great majority of the time. Added to the spam mez in the game, is the practice of ambushes being considerably increased, these ambushes sees through stealth and usually opens up with spam mez. Once more to a melee, having extraordinary unconditional mez protection this is not an issue what so ever, but for the "Support" an entirely different story. Now also add that the practice of having ambushes spawn right a top of the players as well, while again of no consequence to melee for they have uncondtional protections, is game ending for many of the "support" ATs, after all no deal of good game play or practices can protect you from the bunches of mobs spawning right over you and opening up with a wave of mez you can't resist at all, not even a chance of it.
While I seem to make the support AT to look real bad, it can be mitigated, but once more developer design trends are making those mitigations support ATs can utilize increasingly less reliable. I have found thanks to IO sets, the ability to have very high defense values attainable, so when the ambush spawns right on my face, I have a 95% chance they will miss me. Its not quite unconditional protection, but it works. Sadly many groups of mobs are now boosting their to hit, and even some mez now are exhibiting auto-hit like properties, also there is an increased use in defense debuff attacks.
Another problem I have with the game, is when mobs are given immunity against player AT classes powers, such as when the Roman's roar the Controller's ability to use their powers needed for their conditional protections are essentially voided. While I agree it is challenge, is this challenge really fair over-all? Where is the challenge to the melee with this? seems challenge was achieved 100% at the expense of those ATs depending on mez for their protections.
Finally lets talk about the alphas, lower tier:
I earned a Neural Radial Boost, I did not care for the primary ability, but I wanted the defense boost for obvious reasons for my Controller. I went: Oh well the 20% increase is not going to happen because of ED, so I was really banking on the 1/3 or about 6% increase that ignores ED. I delved my Controller prior to slotting the Alpha and had a ranged defense of 44.2%, and then after slotting my Controller my Defense raised to a comical 44.6%.
I did send a bug report over this, for 0.4 out of 44.2% is hardly 6%.
Eventually a friend in my SG indicated the reason for the low improvement is that Alpha's only affects the inherent abilities of a power, and not those abilities gained through IO sets.
That explained why the Neural Radial Boost turned out to be a royal piece of trash.
Now I went through this lengthy description for a reason, I am looking at AT solo-ability and end game.
Notice have I used the Neural Radial Boost on my MA/SR Scrapper, I would likely ended up gaining close to that 6% gain, when you compare that to the 0.9% gain a Controller achieved, it is clear that the solo performance ability gap between melee and ranged got larger.
Now there are other types of boosters, such as Musculature which increases damage right? Is the benefit in increased performance from this booster evenly effective across both the melee and ranged? Since the Blaster, allegedly, does the greatest damage, they would get more from the % gain in the multiplier for damage, but when you go to the damage depressed Defender, the Musculature increase is nearly cosmetic.
Think of the math of it, if your damage is 0.6 (Defender std) and you multiply it by say 6% increase, you get 0.636, a 0.036 increase (something does beat nothing), but you go around to a tanker who does 0.8 and you multiply this by 6% you get 0.848 and improvement of 0.48, which sets the tanks with a performance increase of 13.3%. So once more this second booster only increased the solo-performance gap between melee and ranged. There is only one exception to this observation, the Blaster, they would be 1.0 times 6% would gain 0.6 to their damage, thus damage wise making the blaster better for soloing, than melee in paper.
Lets see, there are the Endurance booster, I can agree that both Ats would experience about the same increase in endurance recharge performance. But does both camps enjoy this improvements the same? Frankly my support toons, after I went thru the expense of slotting 1 Tissue +Regen, 1 Miracle +Recoc, 1 Miracle Heal, 1 Numina +Regen & Recov and 1 Numina Heal and the now inherent Stamina 3 sloted with IOs I have no endurance issues with any of my support at all. So gaining extra endurance is pointless. Now lets look at melee, some of my tankers gains nothing from the endurance bosoter as well, but go to any toggle heavy melee, and now we are talking noticeable improvement! so once more, this booster marginally favors the melee.
Finally you get the quick recharge, I would say this one would marginally favor the support ATs, for the slight increase would allow mez and debuffs to recycle faster, and these powers are the key to a support toon's survival. From melee, they get their damage attacks recycling better, but I find it in my case of little value, I have usually 8 forms in which to deal damage with, by the time I have used my 8th, one or more of the spent powers have recycled.
So I would like to see changes if at all possible, in which the solo performance gap between melee and range could be reduced or mitigated to some extent and not increased; after all the more powerful the melee becomes the greater the challenge they are going to demand, and as a result the support takes it on the nose!
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QFE, QFT|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
CoX has actually *not* avoided that path at any time in its history. That it has seemed like it has to you is a coincidence. The game from its inception has always defined its gameplay as having a core "standard game" which has what I call the standard model of difficulty. That standard itself has evolved over time in terms of being refined, but its basic boundaries are essentially that to qualify as core standard content the content must be soloable by any archetype that is reasonably built to solo within a reasonable amount of time or attempts, using a reasonable amount of inspirations over the course of the content.
However, the game has always had content that was intended to be designed beyond that level of difficulty, either to target players wanting higher difficulty or to gate certain rewards, or both. Task forces are one such type of content. Respec trial is another, as is all the trials. The Praetorian arc (Maria) is another. Just stepping into a hazard zone is yet another. The "standard" end game is already established. Its either to roll an alt, or to play the standard content that exists at level 50. That is the end game for people who want to remain within the standard content boundaries. That has always been a part of the game design as well. So for people who want an end game but do not want to leave the standard difficultly model, you've had your end game since Issue 1. "The" end game is actually the alternate end game: the end game for people who want to leave the standard difficulty model. This is the progressional end game that ratchets both player power and player difficulty. Those two have to go hand in hand: you're not going to get a standard difficulty end game where you get to be more powerful and the critters stay the same or only scale with you. Besides the point that that would be extremely difficult to do with something like the Incarnate system (its already difficult to do with the invention system, and even just with scaling to level 50) it would be a lot of development effort to put players right back at the same place, which is simply not worth it. We already have a standard model level 50, the devs are not going to make another one. Eventually much of the technology developed for the end game will be backported to the standard game, maintaining more or less the standard model of difficulty. The standard model missions will get more interesting, without getting materially more difficult. And the devs are not going to stop making standard content: most of the content in Issue 19 is standard content, skewed counting notwithstanding. So the standard model end game will continue to grow and evolve. But the simple fact is, if you want a standard model end game, you've had one for eighteen issues. Level 50 content *is* the standard model end game, and its not going anywhere. Honestly, given that the standard model end game has had an eighteen issue head start over the advanced one, I don't see the justification for a complaint. To the extent that there's been a trend its a trend that was started at launch. It was evident in the design of Peregrine Island and its snipers and quad boss spawns. It was evident in Maria's arc full of archvillains. It was evident in the respec trial that most players failed the first time or two. It was evident in the design of the Rularuu, and the Vanguard, and the Cimerorans. The fact that you've been able to, I assume, dodge all these things is a lucky happenstance, it is not a reflection of the devs going out of their way to make non-standard content invisible. Optional to an extent, but not invisible. Just as the Incarnate system and the end game content is similarly optional, but not invisible. One last thing: I don't think the Incarnate system and the end game content represents CoX just rehashing other games. The Incarnate system has the potential to be something genuinely new: a transitional end game progression system that uses essentially a modified skills tree in an essentially level-less or near level-less end game. The end game task forces and content is I suppose more likely to look like what other games have done, simply because there are more limits to what a game designer can do in that setting. But you could say the same thing about the standard content as well. The real question is how the devs ease the majority of players into the new difficulty paths. Difficulty is relative. The ITF was considered a difficult task force when it debued. Its now considered an ATM. The LRSF and STF were considered extremely difficult when they debued. Now they are considered just above average in difficulty. And even the normal task forces were considered difficult in the beginning, but now they are not considered all that difficult even by average players with average builds. This game targets the average player. Not you or I, but its average subscriber. The average player has gotten better over time. Not massively so, but noticably so. The game's center of mass is going to shift as a result. |
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I believe this is an excellent summation of what makes WoW "tick" as a MMO.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Since I said what CoH figured out, I'll tell you what WoW figured out that CoH sort of did as well, but WoW took it to astronomical levels. WoW (Blizzard) figured out that while the hard core players are your evangelists, the casual players pay the bills. WoW does not have twelve million hard core raiders. If even one percent of them are hard core players I would be amazed. WoW is eleven and a half million people that play because their cousin Vinny plays, and half a million people maybe that fall asleep at the keyboard. And this only works if, in spite of what some people say, in spite of what CoH players used to say way back when, WoW is very, very, very friendly to casual players. Not in all areas, but in enough of them. WoW is an MMO ramjet. WoW makes so much money on the 99% casual players that it can afford to make content targeted at the hardcore 1%, who then become the people who evangelize the game to other casual players who become the fuel for the WoW engine.
There's a reason the system requirements for WoW are still almost pathetically low. Higher system requirements would starve the ramjet of fuel. |
Over the years I've personally applied the classic "Mac vs PC" dynamic to describing the difference between CoX and WoW. WoW is the PC of the MMO world. It's the common denominator, the McDonald's, the 800 pound gorilla. CoX on the other hand is the Mac of the MMO world. It's the zealously loved unique game that's special, user-friendly, poorly understood/appreciated by outsiders. WoW may have many solo-friendly elements, but I think between the two CoX is "known" for being the solo-friendly game.
Thus when people see the perceived elements of one game (anti-solo raid groupthink) start to make their way towards the other game (the supposed champion of solo-ability) there's naturally going to be a "Mac vs PC" religious-level outcry to that.
It may be sad and unwarranted, but at least it's understandable. *shrugs*
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One hundred thousand million times this. Amen brother!
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Originally Posted by Fiery_Redeemer
Heres a sad little anecdote. No facts, just a story and an opinion.
Ive done EverQuest before CoH. I did a few other MMOs as well, but basically, EQ was my longest. I never liked raiding. I did it as a means to an end = to get gear to solo or group with friends easier. I like easy. So shoot me. Thing is, more and more, the other MMOs focused a lot (not everything, but a lot) on raiding. When I complained on the boards on the heavy use of resources to raid, all I got (ignoring the posts that directly insulted me) was This is a raiding MMO. Its always been the focus. Gear / Challenge / Key / etc locked content. Deal. So I dealt. I left some MMOs. I stayed with EQ (that really wasnt that different), really because my IRL friends played it. It wasnt that different than the rest. For EQ, and other MMOs, it was other peoples turn. Then I heard of CoH. Very easy. Very casual friendly. Negligible end game. From the START. Hundreds of solo arcs. 1 or 2 handfuls of end game TF. Awesome. Finally it was my turn. An MMO designed for people like me. An Easy Button, and I have no shame saying I enjoy it that way. RL friends can play with me, np. But, if they arent around, I can still enjoy solo content, and NEW content was essentially solo focused. You can team, it was more fun to team, but you didnt have to. Then came complaints of wanting challenge and end game content. I tried to be gracious, and did quite a few posts, if people bother searching, to give others their due, but, really, it was somewhat disingenuous. Now, theres all this focus on tougher, challenge, end game, and, if I go But, CoH was always casual, easy, and solo / small group focused., always no longer counts. Now its about time that theres end game. I guess I dont get a turn after all, sigh. I will admit Im bitter about the years of other MMOs where Its always been this way was a repeated way to shut people like me up. Go quit. Go play a single player RPG. came fast and furious at me. Im not mad, but I am sad that I feel, well, that my little oasis of easy casual MMO got invaded. Sorry for the harsh words, but thats how I feel. Also, people often will reply = well, just dont do the new content. I probably wont, actually, but if you think about it, the focus on end game means less focus on solo / small group. The following is an EXAMPLE. For the love of God, please dont correct the numbers, its an illustrative point. Im no programmer, but my wife is in business so I have a tiny touch of knowledge. Made up numbers follows. CoH has only enough money for 4 arc makers. They each can make 1 arc per issue. (Im making this up, obviously). Until recently, all 4 did 1 easy story arc per issue. I therefore got 4 new arcs to play every 4-6 months. Now we focus on end-game. I do believe its unlikely, for most companies, that if the game is receding, or at least treading water, theyd hire a new hire to change the direction of the company (but I will give the example anyways, later). So now, 2 of the people do easy arcs, and 2 of the people do end-game. I now only get 2 arcs I want to play per issue. Sure, I havent LOST any of the old stuff, but the thing is, what Im looking forward to is lesser. Less goodies for me per issue, by 2 out of 4 to be precise in that made up example. This causes more people like me to leave, and more people that like end game to arrive and subscribe. The CoH population shifts. This causes more need for more end game. Ergo, well soon be at 1 easy and 3 end game arcs per issue. Im not going to pretend itll ever get to 0 for the easy / casuals. Even EverQuest threw the odd bone at casual people. But this now changes the face of the game. I was laughed LAUGHED out of the EQ forums when I suggested Time Vs Reward instead of Risk Vs Reward (that latter which I hate). CoH has Time Vs Reward, and I do believe one of the Devs made it a catchphrase (I want to say Positron but Im not sure). And now, RvR is starting its way in, and TvR is starting on its way out. Never completely, but the flavour has changed. And though, bluntly, TvR / easy / whatever you want to call it was here first, its starting to become about challenge. So, challenge seekers have most if not all of the other MMOs, but us casuals couldnt be allowed to keep CoH? I cant change your MMOs but you can change mine. Sigh. And based how I was treated as a last class citizen for daring to like easy on the EQ boards, well, it sucks that again, I see challenge rearing its ugly head. Sure, the old content wont go poof. No I wont quit. But why here? Why CoH? Why did end game emphasis have to come here? Sure there was end game before, but like PvP, Bases, etc it was very evidently tacked on as a We have those things, check. Now lets forget about them. Precedent / vision / flavour / almost everything in CoH had the easy button. Which is good cuz Im not a good player. You should have seen me stress out when I had to Tank in the Reichman arc (I do team and TF once in a while, so I can keep an eye on the horizon and not obsolete myself out of the game). My chest actually pounded when someone actually suggest a Master of (yeah, cuz I want to be responsible for ruining everyones evening for dying and ruining their shot at a badge sure I do argh sweats starting). So, hopefully, this doesnt come across as an attack. If it does, I apologize. But I am saddened that CoH couldnt stay as the little fish, swimming slowly, in the little pond, and that, instead, theres more (not all, but more) resources diverted to end game, instead of keeping it at 95% (ish) to the easy/casual, as it always has been till now. Wish the that was then, this is now crew of these boards had been with me on the EQ boards. Wouldve been nice to have support. Anyhow, off to bed. Night all. Thanks for listening. Addendum = Argh. I almost forgot I said Id give an example about a new hire. So yeah, theres 4 people each making a casual arc. Say theres money to hire a new person, and thats the person thats doing all the new end game (say). Well, again, that introduces a flux in the game. The game has always been about easy / solo. Look at the number of flashbacks vs the number of TF. This now creates an expectation and a need for even more content, rather than we dont do that here. So, you have this new money for a new hire. Well, instead of 4 casual / 1 end game (assuming the end game is the new guy), make it 5 casual arcs per issue, players get even more content in the flavour of the game and this stays a casual game. As its always been. Sure theres Hamidon, STF, LRSF (as of CoV), but thats no where near the amount of exposure as end game has been given now. Getting 5 people on casual arcs lets CoH keep its identity as opposed to being yet another goal = "high end group" intensive MMO. Ive been seeking an MMO when people can group, but not must group for a while. And Ive gotten it, with Issues i.e. new content with CoH, but now, its less so. Since theres only so much resource to go around, X more hours going to end game is exactly X less hours that goes to casual. Anyways, theres the example. (and I use terms like casual and end game rather loosely, being ESL, but I hope you can find the meaning in all the above verbiage) Pillow time for real now |
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I haven't read every post in this thread, but I am on the side of solo-friendly end-game content. In my opinion, if you utilize the difficulty sliders and choose your power sets wisely, then any AT should be able to solo all the way through the game. I accept that TF's are designed for teams (as a result, except for Katie Hannon, I have never completed a TF in the six-plus years I've been playing), and that doesn't bother me. What bothers me is the trouble I have unlocking the alpha slot running with a character that isn't maxed out with the most expensive IO sets.
Instead of a higher level cap (which is all Incarnate amounts to -- turning your character up to 11 by painting a new number on the dial), I would rather have seen more content for level 50's. More zones. More environments. More things to explore. Maybe an upgrade to the common rp zone (Pocket D). Hitting things is hitting things, whether you're level 20 or level 50.
But since you have added to the level cap, I'd like to be able to solo to it. As others have said, CoH has always been extremely friendly to the casual solo player who doesn't have hours-long stretches to finish arcs and raids. I'd hate to see that change. CoH is still the best superhero MMO around and I hope to still be playing it in six more years.
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What is BAF? I've been out of the loop for a while.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, we know for sure that the BAF Trial is for 12-24 players
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Behavioural Adjustment Facility. Basically the big prison/mental institute/ghulag in Praetoria (currently in the northern part of the Imperial City map).
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Originally Posted by Chymerus
What is BAF? I've been out of the loop for a while.
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It stands for Behavioral Adjustment Facility - it's where Tyrant has people who oppose him and his dictaorship imprisoned, brainwashed, tortured or executed.
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Originally Posted by Chymerus
What is BAF? I've been out of the loop for a while.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Thanks!
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Behavioural Adjustment Facility. Basically the big prison/mental institute/ghulag in Praetoria (currently in the northern part of the Imperial City map).
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As opposed to being kidnapped, poisoned, blown up, and murdered by the Resistance|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It stands for Behavioral Adjustment Facility - it's where Tyrant has people who oppose him and his dictaorship imprisoned, brainwashed, tortured or executed.
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Cultist
There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander"
There needs to be soloability at the end game. Otherwise, why am I going to keep playing? To keep doing the same old content while you focus on end game stuff?
No thanks. I'd just go to your much newer competitors. I'm not the constant fanboy here who will support you even if you make a decision to send Positron to my house to kick me in the naughty area. You make enough bad decisions and I'll leave. And I assure you that the die hard fanboys are not the majority in this game.
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I notice you ignored my earlier post about "the competition". I can warn you ahead of time the one you're likely thinking of is plenty "solo friendly" up till level cap, then the game abruptly takes a turn into "OMG full team-only raid content" and at the moment at least, there is no other content at the cap. Talk about CoH pulling an abrupt shift, this one will give you whiplash, trust me. I won't even discuss the "other" competitor.
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Originally Posted by Toony
There needs to be soloability at the end game. Otherwise, why am I going to keep playing? To keep doing the same old content while you focus on end game stuff?
No thanks. I'd just go to your much newer competitors. I'm not the constant fanboy here who will support you even if you make a decision to send Positron to my house to kick me in the naughty area. You make enough bad decisions and I'll leave. And I assure you that the die hard fanboys are not the majority in this game. |
"Superman died fighting Doomsday because he allowed his toggles to drop, and didn't beat Doomsday before Unstoppable wore off, sad really..."
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My point was more that making sweeping changes like this when you have much newer and more known competitors out there is a good way to either lose alot of subs or have your game die.|
Originally Posted by PeerlessGirl
I notice you ignored my earlier post about "the competition". I can warn you ahead of time the one you're likely thinking of is plenty "solo friendly" up till level cap, then the game abruptly takes a turn into "OMG full team-only raid content" and at the moment at least, there is no other content at the cap. Talk about CoH pulling an abrupt shift, this one will give you whiplash, trust me. I won't even discuss the "other" competitor.
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And if COH is going that way (friendly till 50. Team till actual new level cap. Team to raid) then why would I pick COH over the newer competitors with characters I recognized?
Think of this from a standard new players point of view. Not a die hard 7 year vet who wouldn't quit if they forced us to toil in the coal mines.
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Originally Posted by Toony
My point was more that making sweeping changes like this when you have much newer and more known competitors out there is a good way to either lose alot of subs or have your game die.
And if COH is going that way (friendly till 50. Team till actual new level cap. Team to raid) then why would I pick COH over the newer competitors with characters I recognized? Think of this from a standard new players point of view. Not a die hard 7 year vet who wouldn't quit if they forced us to toil in the coal mines. |
1) Don't assume I'm a "Die hard 7 year vet" who'd never quit. (though I'm close) also don't assume that's the way CoH is going. CoH could make the rest of their content team only for the next 4 issues, and still have more soloable content than such and such competitor does at launch. My point mostly was, don't be so quick to knock CoH, they AREN'T doing things that way. The new competitor is, from the gate. It's also possible to reach cap in 24-36 hours of playtime, I know cause I did it, solo. (With the exception of the wandering big name mobs that require a team (max 4) to beat, then I picked up 3 random people. Having a game run from 1 to cap one way (and also telling you you can use "roles" like "tank" but not teaching you, or making those roles important until you "raid" makes the whole game shift on a dime at the literal "last minute".
Regardless of our various views on soloability/endgame etc. While the competition may be newer and shiny-er, honestly, it's not real competition to CoH. The closest thing just went free.
As arcana said, I think earlier in this thread (or maybe the other one I'm following) "(game) was designed on a planet that hasn't invented MMOs yet." in reference to said competition. Truer words have never been spoken.
"Superman died fighting Doomsday because he allowed his toggles to drop, and didn't beat Doomsday before Unstoppable wore off, sad really..."
From the Strike Pack thread:
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Let me tell you how I read this:|
Originally Posted by Black Scorpion
Hey again, Black Scorpion here to expound a little bit more on the Strike Pack.
The Weekly Strike Target is the only means of obtaining rare and very rare Alpha Slot abilities before Issue 20. We understand that this means grouping. The addition of the WST will make finding a group for the focused content easier; we believe that people will run the WST multiple times, either to earn the badge or to earn the increased rewards on multiple characters, or even just because it will be easier to find a group for it. Also, to get yourself a single rare ability and earn the level shift will only require running the WST once, and to get a very rare ability it will only take two additional runs. If that’s not your cup of tea, the Incarnate Trials in Issue 20 are going to be an alternative means of obtaining the same abilities. We are investigating a variety of strategies for the solo player to engage the system as well in the future. No one is more excited than I about the excitement concerning the Alpha Slot and the Incarnate system, and we want to offer more ways for people to participate and enjoy the content they love. On the other claw, sometimes in developing a massively multiplayer game we are going to have content which encourages and rewards multiplayer play. Your bud in the Incarnate-powered armor, Black Scorpion |
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| The Weekly Strike Target is the only means of obtaining rare and very rare Alpha Slot abilities before Issue 20. |
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| If that’s not your cup of tea, the Incarnate Trials in Issue 20 are going to be an alternative means of obtaining the same abilities. |
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| We are investigating a variety of strategies for the solo player to engage the system as well in the future. |
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| On the other claw, sometimes in developing a massively multiplayer game we are going to have content which encourages and rewards multiplayer play. |
- If you can't team because you may need to afk/leave quickly - tough.
- If you want to be in a small team - tough.
- If you or your computer can't handle a Raid or Trial - tough.
- If you actually want to play rather than sit around waiting for a Trial or TF to be organized (and I am looking at you CoP Trial) - tough.
So basically you're confirming here that solo'ists and those who prefer small teams are out of luck.
Lovely.
Those 'soloists' ARE multiplaying but not in the way seen by your limited view.
- They're interacting on the market.
- They're interacting in chat; especially helping people because they CAN stop and explain which you can't do if you're in a fight on a TF.
- They're probably telling their friends about the game who may well be a different element of your player base.
I am not a rabid solo'er. However, I do solo and I would like to think I can work on my Incarnate stuff when I am solo'ing. I don't want to be forced into doing eight Trials to advance because frankly I might as well log out for the period it takes to set them up; at least I'd be getting credit on my day jobs.
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You will be able to work on any common and uncommon pieces while soloing thanks to shards. You will also be able to work on gathering the shards needed for the next tiers while soloing. Only one piece of the puzzle for the rare and very rare slots require teaming. In order to get one rare, you only need to team once. To get the very rare, you need to team 3 times. And there is no rush to team right now, unless of course you want those items sooner.|
Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
I would like to think I can work on my Incarnate stuff when I am solo'ing.
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Also, those shards are likely going to be useful for future incarnate slots.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Okay. Well, I can't even get the Alpha slot unlocked solo. And you're still saying that there are levels of end-game that cannot be achieved solo. I liked it better when I had level 50's that were maxed out and were still fun to play. Now, they are no longer maxed, and will never be maxed because I don't team very often. It doesn't encourage me to want to play them, knowing that they are now second-rate, not-quite-there-if-you-know-what-I-mean heroes, whereas before they were awesome, top-of-the-line heroes.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
You will be able to work on any common and uncommon pieces while soloing thanks to shards. You will also be able to work on gathering the shards needed for the next tiers while soloing. Only one piece of the puzzle for the rare and very rare slots require teaming. In order to get one rare, you only need to team once. To get the very rare, you need to team 3 times. And there is no rush to team right now, unless of course you want those items sooner.
Also, those shards are likely going to be useful for future incarnate slots. |
The entire end-game is just a huge point of frustration. And I can't even get the devs to drop the Trapdoor mission off of my characters' mission lists. I don't have an option to drop it myself.
Black Scorpion's announcement that running the Weekly Strike Target is necessary to obtain a "Notice of the Well", a requirement for the Rare and eventually Very Rare Alpha Slot content is concerning to me.
I'm a mostly solo player. Not that I'm against team content - I often team, and every once in a great while join a task force, but most of them are so long, and I'm in that category of player that can't play for more than maybe an hour or two a night.
I'm hoping that it's taken into consideration that not everyone can participate in 3+ hours of gameplay at once, because as it stands, it feels like this is some end-game content that I may be cut off from as a result.