Are bases obsolete?

Ad Astra



Dare I ask it?

We, the denizens of the base building forum and the stylisitc stackamaniacs, are already a down trodden lot. We mope about knowing we will likely never get anything fixed or added to our favorite part of the game.

We share pictures of the fairly amazing things we've been able to do within this rather poor system that has always been promised to be so much more.

But still we keep hope. Still we trudge on.

We stack like mad, we make the most out of every crumb (like removing pathing rules) which is thrown at us, Even when those crumbs are bequeathed to us at the expense of things like base raids, still, we take it on the chin.

We create works of art of out of garbage, and we all enjoy, appreciate and congratulate each other.

But under it all, something else has happened to the game. Huge changes have made the biggest benefits to being part of a Super Group to anyone outside of the *artiste* of the lot, no longer so *beneficial* or attractive.

For one, the teleporters. It used to be the only one-stop-shopping fastest means of travel. Now, every train goes to every zone; Oro, pocket d, the mission transporter vet powers, the black market and wentworth temps and the list goes on. Its now so easy to get around, who cares if you have teleporters, honestly? I barely use them at all anymore, and I know I'm not alone, at least in the circle of folk I play with and talk to.

Sure they are still nice to have for those out of the way place like eden or boomtown, but when other things stack up that make being part of a larger SG less attractive, this is simply not beneficial enough to make it worth while.

For instance, base storage. This has long been a buggaboo for base leaders and base users alike. How do you protect yer personal stuffs, but still make the base useful for everyone in the sg? They threw a bandaid at it a while back where you can set permissions based on rank, but that is a far cry from making any table really personal. And the extreme limitation on the amount of storage you can have, even on the largest plot size makes it so that there is no effing way you're going to be able to provide even a decent percentage of the folks in even a small-to-medium SG with storage and certainly nothing protected and personal. The enh table holds 100, the insp 100, and the salvage 30 (wtf?!).

The alternative is small solo bases that are designed solely for storage. Many of my friends do this, even though we are all loosely attached to several SG's. You can e-mail yerself hot items you want to save, log onto the one toon you have in yer solo sg and and dump em in your base. Much more attractive item than trying to place them in a large base and hope no one else will mess with em till you need something. This is extremely easy to do anymore, and even though the rent is based on these utility items, it is still rather easy to accumulate if you just run in sg mode for a couple TFs a month (or every six weeks*)

So, what is the benefit of being in a huge group with a huge base anymore? How do we attract new members to our SG to run in SG mode to allow us to add that one more beaker stack, or that one more red bottle bunch.

Some will say "The friends! The SG channel! The Coalition Tab! How else will you find things to do and people to do them with?"

Many a group, especially the larger and most active ones have developed global channels just for this purpose, because the SG channel and coalition channel, global friends lists, etc. are so limiting. So a global channel does what a large SG does, but so much better.

So are bases obsolete? Are we, the already downtrodden base building artistes, about to all be outta work? Or should we all start changing our focus to selling our trade to the young solo sg apartment owners as "interior designers" or whatever?

Seriously, am I gonna have to start wearing a pink ascot?

Cuz that's just the last straw, man.

@Bonker Guide to Base Building for the Small SG
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Remaining: Lusca, Sewers, Eden, Kahn, States, HeroSpec2&3, Apex, Tin Mage, Moritmer Kal, Tesseract, Recluse, 'Cuda, Quarry, Stropharia, Thorn, Arachnos Flier, Deathsurge, Caleb, Seed of Hamidon (Villrespec2&3, Hami, CoP, Incarnates)



So are bases obsolete? Are we, the already downtrodden base building artistes, about to all be outta work? Or should we all start changing our focus to selling our trade to the young solo sg apartments owners as "interior designers" or whatever?
I just commented on this over on the Misinformation thread:

Devs hate super group bases

Paragon Studios has limited resources available to develop the game and has to make the most of each cycle of development. Some aspects of the game, such as the implementation of Super Group bases, probably needs to be scrapped and rebuilt from scratch. The time and resources spent on updating Super Group bases wouldn't have an immediate impact on sales or subscriptions of the game (that is not up for debate, updating the SG bases wouldn't bring any old subscribers back and the draw to new players would be insignificant). Ergo, SG base work has to be done on a de-prioritized level.
The concept of a Supergroup base as it was at the start of the game has largely been outdated. Cryptic envisioned the Supergroup base as something to entice over to CoH players of Ultima Online and Everquest, and many of the pricing costs and obtention methods were based on large groups of players working together.

As City of Heroes matured many of those older design concepts fell to the side. Case in point: In the original version of the game more emphasis was placed on random hunts and street sweeping for level progression. Using mission completes to deliver rewards was pretty much unheard of. Very few mission arcs created today have random zone hunts. Rather, as of Going Rogue, zone hunts were being focused on zowie objects where players may have to face enemies to clear a zowie location rather than hunt some annoyingly increasing number of enemies.

The vision of the Supergroup base as expressed back when the game launched has indeed become obsolete.

That does not mean that the concept of a Supergroup Base itself is obsolete.

It has been indicated by the developers, I believe as recently as the post Going Rogue launch interviews, that they do have some ideas on what to do with Supergroup bases. Much like the Pre-I18 market though, the implementation of bases largely needs to be scrapped in order for any serious work to be done, such as making SG bases cross-faction.

That is going to take both time and money, and the reality is that at this stage in the game's life rebuilding the systems that backs the Supergroup base would have little to no financial profit. A reworked base system would not draw back in players who have left the game. The flip side of that coin is that as the current SG bases already checks off all of the bullets on the list for a retail box feature, and if the rest of the game can't get new players to decide on subscribing, a revamped supergroup base that will take a few weeks to populate with stuff isn't going to do it either.

That isn't a good situation for those hoping for quick updates to Supergroup bases. The only likely way that Paragon Studios could convince NCSoft to fund improvements on a prioritized schedule is if something in the Supergroup base system had to be changed or updated for a major retail / issue expansion feature.

It could be for that reason that we'll see Supergroup bases locked in with future Incarnate content, or a possible merger of Supergroup base and AE functionality.



Originally Posted by Ironblade View Post
No, bases are not obsolete.

(I would have simply said "No", but one-word posts are naughty.)


That blue thing running around saying "Cookies are sometimes food" is Praetorian Cookie Monster!
Shoot on sight, please.



Bases are not completely obsolete yet. However, they are on the verge of becoming decorative relics of the past. While the game itself evolves to provide more fun and functional options for the average player independent of bases (better travel, side switching, merged markets, glee mail, new zones, etc.)...bases stagnate.

As evidenced by the sheer number and types of posts in this very forum, today bases are primarily opulent monuments developed by a minority of the player base under a class system (those with resources/base editing privileges and those without).

Like it or not, there is a strong link between the plight of bases and the plight of SGs/VGs. Lower ranking SG/VG members continue to get less real value from their hard earned prestige under the SG/VG umbrella. This in turn makes striking out on one's own independent of any SG/VG affiliation a more viable alternative. Thus the fabric of SG/VG membership slowly erodes away... and so does the value of bases.

While the devs could take action to reverse the above trends they have so far elected not to do so. If anything, the devs have chosen to follow an "SG unfriendly" agenda (reduce SG specific activities, eliminate SGs from the latest zones, prevent cross factional SGs, etc.). New fun and functional features for bases themselves have not fared any better over the past couple of years.

While the devs may, from time to time, express feelings like "it's a shame they haven't been able to do more" the truth is no one has yet stepped forward publicly for years with any concrete plan or timetable to make this situation any better. So, lacking any other evidence to the contrary, I expect all of the above trends to continue... making bases in the end...obsolete (edit add: but often quite gaudy should you have an appreciation for the value of the "artistic" aspect of things).

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.



Originally Posted by Redlynne View Post
I'm going to lay down a marker.

If there's still no Base Love by Issue 20 ... or even the hope of any ... there never will be any. EVER.
I still stand by my marker placed on 12 Aug 2010.

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...



No, they're storage >_>



no... where else can you get empowerment buffs, pick up salvage, craft enhancements and store them for later use within hopping distance of each other?

I agree the combined train stations have reduced the need of some teleporters the ones to steel and talos are still used more than the train



If empowerment buffs and "hopping distance" crafting is the "glue" holding bases together, in the future bases are in trouble. Certainly the devs did not view such features as showstoppers when they created Praetoria or allowed side switching (with a loss of SG affiliation). There are no signs that bases will hold any more importance with incarnates or anything else made public planned for the game.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.



what rubbish. the bases arent useless. my sg mates always use the telepads, pillar of ice and fire and workshops. they also use the storage quite frequently.



Originally Posted by NYCPulpWriter View Post
what rubbish. the bases arent useless. my sg mates always use the telepads, pillar of ice and fire and workshops. they also use the storage quite frequently.
Your sg mates don't have to use bases to do any of this. When you consider that in some cases they flat out can't (while they are Praetorians or switch sides) and in other cases bases are not even the "best" way to do these things anymore you get an idea of why people begin to rethink the utility of bases.

That doesn't make bases "useless" (and I at least did not say they were... yet). But, I'm afraid the decline of the need for bases is far from rubbish and boils down to empowerment stations and the CoP trial (which cannot be found elsewhere... yet) and limited situational convenience. Is that enough justification to rebuild a kludge of a design from the ground up? How about making development of lots new stuff for bases a high priority? Or even sustain the viability of bases in the long run?

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.



I use my bases all the time. Really... a lot. For several purposes, all mentioned above.

So, that definitively answers the questioned being asked: Are bases obsolete?

Absolutely not.

But that's not the real question being asked. I have little patience or tolerance for people who play that kind of word-game to make the point they want to make under the guise of an innocent question.

The real point being made is: "I want new stuff for bases!"

Fine, valid request.

But to pretend that one is 'worried' that bases are 'obsolete' because you're not getting what you want is insincere and a crime against language having meaning.

Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides



Oh, bases are great for going afk in and not getting afk booted off the server too. Definitely not obsolete



A vinyl record collection, while a fun hobby, is certainly obsolete in the world of superior sound quality, storage, and convenience/portability of MP3s. Yes, even if you listen to your records every day.

Medbays were once of great use, but now there are med cots in hazard zones. They don't even restore you to full health, so trying to use them to return rapidly just means you have a "Rest" click in your future. Especially now with the movement speed buff... you can get back to mission from the hospital in comparable time to base zoning and resting.

Telepads were once a major convenience, now mostly not needed. While some SG spam brags of porters to all zones (even my solo SG has that) you really only need a couple any more. I don't see a whole lot of Hazard zone adventuring, myself. When they actually come up, mission porter takes care of the trip there. Oro to Talos gets me a train anywhere else.

Storage? People have the Vault, use email muling, alts, and even mule at Wentworths (where inventory count is by STACK, not unit). Unless it's a solo SG or a small, tight knit group willing to risk it... it's just junk storage you don't care about. The small amount that can be stored (especially since it used to be in triple digits per unit) really reduces its usefulness. You can't store recipes and not all recipes can be crafted and then transferred (temp powers, costume pieces). Storage is a base's best use - IF you're the only member.

Empowerment stations, while unique to bases, are used only by rare people. Most players don't even know they exist. They are in such low demand, they don't get mentioned in SG spam. Ever. While I'm sure they get more use out of PVPers, that's not exactly a large community (despite their claims).

Pillar of Ice & Fire? Even with a vet base teleport, it's faster to Oro port and use one of those.

Invention tables? While it might seem convenient to be able to zone to a table from anywhere that has a base portal, with some exceptions (Pocket D & Faultline for example) if there's a base portal, there's a train station. Zoning to your base is generally no faster than zoning to a place with a nearby University... which might even have a handy Wentworth's. The question rises... if you craft that much why haven't you bothered to get the portable table for those "nao" moments? How many such moments actually come up?

Speaking of Wentworth's... bases have no consignment house terminals. How much crafting are you really doing from the limited storage? Can't be that much... not without frequent trips outside and ignoring WW/University neighbors.

Inspiration dispensers can sure come in handy if they weren't so difficult to get. It's been years and my SG has only unlocked the first one (obviously, we're big on mitigation aside from "healz"). Certainly, groups that have heal badge farmed get more use out of this.

Bases are pretty much obsolete. SGs, in general, really don't offer anything a global channel can't. You can talk to your friends better (cross server/cross faction) and you can still see who's online. In fact, prior to bases, all a SG was was a chat channel and an alt color scheme for your costume if you were into that.

If you are jazzed by taking random piles of room clutter and making it look like a toilet or a shooting range or something, though... bases are still fun.

I have a "complete" base with all porters, medbay (with robo surgeries), time crystal, lots of storage racks, insp dispenser, and both t3 empowerment stations, work & invention tables. I can go without and not be inconvenienced until I need some costume salvage from my grandfathered rack with 80+ sets of the stuff. Even then I could just have 1 character pull all that salvage (since it takes no character inventory space) and email as needed if I bothered.



Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
But that's not the real question being asked. I have little patience or tolerance for people who play that kind of word-game to make the point they want to make under the guise of an innocent question.
I find this ironic, the little patience part that is. I'll accept the word-game label if it was directed at my questions and helps make you feel better. But, at the risk of raising your anger even more please consider:

You take some of nicest, most helpful, and friendliest people in the game (yours truly excluded). They try for years to take what they think is a good thing and attempt to get someone to make it better. On a rare occasion you win; but only if what you ask for takes minimal effort (go into a program and lower pricing numbers or remove pathing restrictions).

Most times you lose. When I say lose I mean "worse than ignored". Capabilties you once had (base storage, raids, multi SG leadership, unique SG activities, unique SG rewards ) are gone. You watch as the rest of the game passes you by (the latest being Praetoria and side switching... which is why I keep bringing it up). You study trends and find that the things that make what you once treasured as "special" are not so "special" any more (great post Celica). You watch it morph away from the needs of "the group" and toward the tastes of "the individual"

Then you look to the future. That's where you get a good dose of development "priorities","bang for development buck" and how hard a fix is to achieve. Then, at least in my case, the time comes when you are faced with: "Is it all even worth asking for?"

ZM I have mounds of respect for you and what you have done for this community. Forgive the word-games. But words are all I have. And I've used just about every one I can think of to make the above points time and again and request fixes without success.

I wish I had your confidence that "Of course bases aren't obsolete." I wish I could say that bases (and especially supergroups) overall were flourishing and expectations are high for a bright future. I hope they won't turn into just individual storage units or a means of artistic expression. But behind a decorative facade things overall aren't going so well and haven't been for years. Maybe we should just accept that "what we have is all there is" as Redlynne suggests. At this point, stopping all the "erosion" we have suffered (if that is even possible) may be the best we can hope for for bases.

And with that, I'm out.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.



Originally Posted by Celica View Post
A vinyl record collection, while a fun hobby, is certainly obsolete in the world of superior sound quality, storage, and convenience/portability of MP3s. Yes, even if you listen to your records every day.
This comparison doesn't really work well, because the sound quality of MP3's usually sucks. Even properly recorded MP3's are generally inferior in quality. This is compounded by the poor digital-to-analog circuitry in computers and portable players.

Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project



I'm not a heavy freqenter of this section of the boards, but I have found some incredible tips in here that have allowed me to really have fun in the Base Editor.

While I do not think that bases are obsolete, I think they are heading in that direction. With certain QoL issues recently added to the game, it makes bases just a little less useful. Right now, a base is basically a customizable storage bin that allows access to the CoP. There is quite a bit of functionality that it could have that is not there, and there has been very little advancement in the entire engine with the exception of stacking and collision removal (which really has opened up some amazing possibilities) .

I think that there are two reasons that the Devs do not wish to spend time on the editor. One, they don't want to mess anything up, which is quite understandable. If they broke stacking, and thus destroyed thousands of SG bases in one fell swoop, well, ED would have a new friend. The other is that they are missing a huge amount of potential that can be had. There are a number of things that could be tied to SGs and their Bases beyond storage bins and zone teleporters. However, this ties back into number one, getting someone into the system and updating it without breaking everything.

-= idspispopd =-

[size=1]Arc ID: 3155 - Project Prometheus (Seeking Feedback, now with less invalidation)[/size]



They were non-essential conveniences when they launched, and they're still non-essential conveniences. Fun for some players to mess around with, invisible to most.


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My City Was Gone



If I had anything to add, it would be this. For one, I do enjoy base construction and design. It's one of the few things that help divert time away from the usual grind of just doing an AE run, TF, or basic grind. If we had many more AE slots, it might qualify, but for now, base construction is the only really creative side activity going for now.

I don't know the feasibility of it, but if bases could just somehow be adjusted to hold pads for either side's zones, that in itself would make them a tad more useful. I don't know about many others, but when I am running in rogue mode and doing a hero side older TF, the transport time can get nasty at times. It makes me feel that I am slowing things down at times. I have but only wonder if the VG base could have hero locs and vice versa if this could be improved. It would also add a little more functionality to bases at this stage. I know the trains were opened up for this, but going from PI to IP is a tad tedious for now without vet powers for now if you are in the middle factions.

Outside of that, at the very least, if they could just throw us a small bone and flag a new set of decorative items to the base, it would be something at the very least. I don't know how detailed it is, but if it's by some manner of fate a simple flag to do so, then a council computer terminal, gravemarker, etc addition would at least give us something to work with. Just a few new peices of variety every once in a while is better than nothing.

By all means, the only way the base system will likely completely imrpove is a full revamp with the potential loss of all current work. But any change at all that will give base designers something fresh to add in, or a way to use a base in a new way, like triggering TFs/Hami raids/etc would be interesting to bring a meaning back to them.

PS -- I know they added a new mini zone for the TFs, but I have yet to really see anyone use them at all, but at least SGs could make use out of a base version via a base mission computer/raid TPer.



Bases aren’t obsolete, but they could use some attention devoted to them.

At this point it is unlikely that SG bases will receive a complete overhaul over other projects (new zones, zone revamps, additional Incarnate slots, additional Powerset Proliferation, etc…) being done.

Instead, What I would like to see is every Issue to bring 2 or 3 new base items.

And although we won’t see a booster devoted entirely to SG base items (since people would run around gifting them to other SGs on the server), it would be nice to see 1 or 2 base items included as part of a much larger Super Booster pack that also includes Costume pieces, auras, & emotes.



Back when I first got into this game... 33 months ago, I was part of VG with group of friends that I personally knew offline. The small base eventually grew and grew, we got the teleporters up, storage racks, etc. Then after awhile I ended up being the only member left playing, leaving myself my own personal storage bunker/base. Nice to have since there wasn't the function of e-mailing items yet and the CoP was still bugged, (I've never played the original version.)

So when it came time for the free-server switches the choice was the base or a more populated server. I chose the latter. I really thought I would miss the base, but in a few days, I forgot all about it. Then e-mailing items eventually came, and I've never looked back. Having the train lines connect in Paragon City takes away the need for teleporters. I don't miss the base, but for large well know super-groups I imagine it serves as great place to gather for events and TF/Trial functions. I think that the need is dying for a base for smaller super groups, but not large ones.



Originally Posted by je_saist View Post
or a possible merger of Supergroup base and AE functionality.
That idea has merit, well at least how I'm imagining it.

speaking of the editor though, I wish they would do away with purchasing individual rooms and allow easy accurate XYZ placement of objects.

------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------



If what I've heard is correct, the Devs are currently looking into making SGs open to all factions. If that happens, then a good third of all bases out there will become completely useless, seeing as how many have a SG and a VG for their coresponding servers. I know I do. I think that it would be great to have the ability to coalition with the opposing faction, opening up travel for both sides.

I use my base for storage and travel, mostly. I have med bays, but I NEVER use them anymore. And I use my tpers maybe once a week, to get to those hard-to-reach places, and that's it. They may not be obsolete yet, but they're on the fast-track to nowhere'sville.

Topher Wade lvl 50 Claws/Regen
The Crimson Heroes Society SG
Chaos Faction VG

Official Naturalized Citizen of Justice since 2007



I find this ironic, and a bit depressing.

One thing that the Gorilla took from City of was what used to be the item of power mechanic, the buff to all members for certain achievements.

While there isn't any base editing involved...If you belong to a guild that has a huge amount of achievements, you get some very nice and -useful- buffs... just for being a member...

In city- that is a thing that has been removed, untouched and avoided... for so long, I have faith that the dev team will never do anything about it.

The inactivity of attention to the subject tells me they simply don't have the resources to breath new life into it.

It would be a beatific thing if they did, But that horse doesn't get any bets from me.

Not anymore.

Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.



I personally find my bases not obsolete as long as the Base Teleporter power still exists. It is usually faster to use the Base Teleporter and exit in your selected zone that travel both to AND from the Tram. And likewise a crafting station that is just a teleport away is closer than one at a University or Abandoned Lab. (Granted, this may be because my system and connection are powerful enough that I do not have long zoning times)

Bases had to be made LESS useful because otherwise Praetorians and tourists being locked out of them would have been an unacceptable penalty. However, I don't believe that was a design decision, it was technology limitations. I don't believe there will ever be cross faction SGs (it has been stated explicitly by the devs there will NOT be, and no statement yet that they have changed their minds) but in the future I expect more workarounds to allow coalitions and guests from the other side to visit a base.

There is a fine balancing act here between providing purpose in a base, and unfairly penalizing those who do not choose to have a base.