The Impossible Mr. Trapdoor and Issue 19's New Theme

They're game design premises designed to appeal to the casual gamer who doesn't want to have to think too hard about there stats and so that you don't need to work too hard to make a design that works even if it doesn't work perfectly or even particularly well from the perspective of more "serious" players

CoH is very much a casual gamer's MMO

From my perspective, the encounter is far more unfavorable to scrappers, and is worst of all for DPS brutes. (And I wouldn't want to run it with a tanking brute as the tank, either.) A tanker still has a clearly defined job to do on the TF, and once the tanker has learned the task it calls for it's not that hard. And a tanker is slightly less likely to be instantly killed, and likelier to be able to recover from being in the Wrong Place briefly. Like I said before, one of our main purposes is repositioning mobs for the benefit of the team.

As I said before, melee DPS is usually at a disadvantage in gimmick fights. This is no exception. A scrapper will be idle or distracted for stretches at a time here. A brute will have an even harder time maintaining adequate damage on the primary target.

if I remember correctly, Apex and Tin Mage gives you 40 Merits and 2 Incarnate Shards upon completion. Seeing that the average time is about a hour or less, what TFs can you do that quickly and offers that many Merits? Only thing that comes close is if it's a speed run of a LGTF and ITF back to back, but then again, those same speed teams could do a Tin Mage and Apex for more.

no....that's the crack addicts MMO

That's more a matter of preference than good or bad design. Point is, MMOs can be very successful violating those game axioms. The most successful of all breaks both. You could argue that it is poorly designed as well, but then we get into the semantics of what the intent of good design even is. Its generally, in my opinion, to make a successful game, as judged by the number of players willing to play it for extended periods of time, and gain significant enjoyment from it.

What I will concede is that in the general case, its more straight-forward to design an MMO where things interlock together in explicitly designed ways which inevitably lead to fixed roles and fixed trade-offs that tend to include solo ability as a potential trade off. But while its easier to do it that way on paper, I think its the least interesting way to do it. I wouldn't leverage the game mechanics in that way. I'd keep soloing off the table and push team synergy in other directions. You just need a sharp enough pencil.


Increasing difficulty is neutral to issues of soloability. And so long as that difficulty is spread out in such a fashion that it on average doesn't disadvantage specific archetypes more than others, I don't see this as being true, at least in the sense you're implying. Some other fundamental principles are already being amended that some players currently don't like, such as the actual threshold for judging soloability. The devs' standard has never been "place drinking bird on keyboard and wait" but some players' thresholds are not that far removed from that. In the standard content, the difference between the two was not large enough to make a big deal out of though. However, in the end game, that no longer holds. In the case of Trapdoor, for example, if you are not a genuinely strong soloer and not a strong player yourself, the encounter might be sufficiently difficult that you personally might not complete it. But that alone is not proof of a problem: it only has to be theoretically completable. Some players might not recognize (although I can't imagine how) the significance of the bifurcations and try in vain to plow through them. Some might think that inspirations are "cheating" or "shouldn't be required." Some might have explicitly built their characters to be highly focused on ally assistance to the point of fracturing their solo ability. All of these things simply mean the player might not complete it the first time, or even the second or third times. That's what it means to be "difficult" - the chance for failure is non-zero. But as long as its possible to do, the fact the player cannot find and use one of the available tactics that would work does not mean the encounter is improperly designed. That is something the players will have to start getting used to: failure is an option.

The devs have also stated repeatedly that large sections of it are not targeted for solo players, and even the alternate paths that are soloable are not intended to be equally easy to solo or equally rewarding to solo. Shard drop mechanics, for example, provide for solo access but tend to reward teamed play by an order of magnitude. In the end game, that is considered an acceptable compromise between soloability and the higher-end targets of end game play which generally require or promote teaming.

I don't mind those changes to the fundamental design principles of the game as it specifically pertains to the end game. There's still the other 90% of the game that is still highly solo-friendly and will be basically unaffected by those design foundational changes.

If you're a melee character, presumably you're in melee with Battle Maiden. You move outside the nanite radius, and presumably all of the other melee characters do, as well (if they don't they'll soon be corpses, ignored by BM). When BM is in melee AI mode and all in-range targets leave range, she'll follow them to get back in range.

Presumably at level 50, you'll have at least one ranged attack, too.

FarmVille (and clones) is specifically designed to make players spend as much of their time as possible either playing FV, or thinking about FV. FV developers don't want you spending time doing anything else besides FV, except possibly telling your friends about FV.

And that's not even an exaggeration, it's the actual design philosophy of the game.

Oh, noes!

We can't have the game evolving now, can we? How much longer will the game stay viable or relevant if everything they release is just a variation of the same old crap they've been releasing for 6 years?

The game HAS to change or it gets stagnant, and stagnant games don't last very long in this day and age when there are so many other choices. Speaking of other choices, they exist, so if you dislike the direction the game is headed in that much, there's nothing stopping you from choosing one of them.

I'm sure this post isn't going to keep you from whining about it, but hey, there IS something to be said for games that are stagnant and never change in the slightest. I mean, look how popular Pong still is.

If you want the game to be easy....you have plenty of things you can do that are easy, no one is FORCING you to run these TFs.

This goes for both you and EvilRyu: Yes, you are both correct in that these TFs and the Incarnate system aren't like anything that has come before them. Now, most people feel that is a GOOD thing, but you two seem to think the game should stay exactly the same forever. I'm sensing a couple impending ragequits when the devs refuse to see things your way and make everything just like everything else.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Personally im stockpilling them so i can unlock every single alpha slot power and truely have my main as a "jack of all trades" [ill/rad means it can work too]. So for me, its a very well worthwhile time

Just about to start on my second uncommon alpha slot for him

Heroes, Villains ♦ Reviews ♦ Retrospect

And I already responded to that: If they want the game to change, CHANGE the GAME. Not just change the encounter design and ignore the AT and power design that was specifically set up to work with the tank-n-spank dynamic they want to move away from.

Newer games that are more "action oriented" like these encounters try to be, they also give melee characters charge/lunge powers. They don't stick them with one crappy, long animating, low DPS attack that can only be used on the ground. They don't have defensive sets that are only effective with enemies clustered tightly around you.

No. They wont do that. They just want to do half-baked attempts at making things more dynamic without putting the work in.


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So...

CoX has been crap for the past 6 years, eh? Dude! Why didn't you say something the FIRST YEAR?

Yes, revamping the way the entire combat system works in a 6+ year old game is clearly the answer.

They would have to redo every single powerset in the game from the ground up in order to do that. Not only is that a HUGE amount of work that would take forever, but the end result would suck in comparison to other games that will have been released by the time they are done with it.

They would also probably have to reconfigure the game engine itself in order to do it. From what I understand the reason we have rooting in the animations is because the game engine they are using doesn't work any other way. I'm not a programmer, but I can't imagine that rebuilding an MMO from the ground up to be completely different is going to be a small undertaking.

Overhauling the entire game the way you want them to just would not be worth the time and effort they would have to spend on it. If they are going to revamp things like that, they would be better served doing those things with an eventual sequel that they may make someday.

They are trying to add some dynamics to the combat in level capped content without going to all the trouble of basically redesigning the whole freaking game. It's not half-baked, it's just the limitation of what they can do with a 6+ year old game engine.

Unless you think they should stop all work on new content and put their entire staff to work rebuilding the entire game. But that would result in a LOT of their playerbase getting disgusted and leaving long before they finish it, because they hadn't gotten anything new in several years.

Well, the fact that I wasn't here the first year might explain that.

Another reason would be that it is still a good game, but applying the exact same tactics to every encounter there is gets old after a while.

It's basically: "Oh, an AV! Okay, everyone buff up. Tank, get in there and piss it off. Okay, everyone....GET HIM!"

That's fine, but when everything you do can be accomplished by the exact same means, it kind of loses it's appeal after a while.

Only recently have they even tried to change that up, and some people are complaining because they dared to make them change their tactics. Do you LIKE standing in one spot and beating on an AV until it drops, and then doing the exact same thing for every AV in the game?

With this being the "end game" content that has been highly requested for years now, I for one would have been very disappointed if it was exactly the same stuff we've already been doing for years. And from what I've noticed on the forums, I'm not alone in that.

In my opinion, some new content that is more than "Kill a bunch of fluff enemies until you get to the big bad, then gather in a circle around him and hit him until he falls, wash, rinse, repeat" is a GOOD thing.

If you want to play the game mindlessly doing the exact same thing for every single mission or TF you do, there is plenty of content available for you to do. Saying that NO ONE should get any new wrinkles in the stuff they do because YOU don't want it is just pure selfishness.

I read the underlying message from both of your posts as "I don't care if other people like this content, I don't like it, so they should get rid of it."

How would you feel if I said that you should have part of the game you enjoy taken away because *I* don't like it?

If you don't like what they are doing with the new content, you don't have to play it. But not liking it gives you no right to say that no one else should have it either.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Alot of the existing content we have isnt frustrating its just a select few factions and missions that are. The devs could go a long way to fixing just a few things to make it more bearable and less frustrating. For instance why is it that the CoT gives like way less xp overall than say the freak show or rikti when they are obviously more of a threat due to their ability to debuff a teams tohit into the floor. Its crap like that I never understood why we have it in this game. The other issue that gets on my last nerve is the knives of artemis. They arent a serious threat but I hate being slowed into next week with all the damn caltrops. Seriously who here has ever died from caltrops? No one here I bet. So why go over board with all the caltrops? Just making minor tweaks to factions and get rid of or alter all the powers in the game that cheat due to suck *** AI we would easily have a game thats has almost zero frustration.

That's what you ARE saying. All the time and energy the devs spend time on Trapdoor and all that he represents is time and energy they won't be spending on the aspects of the game I like. So there.

But people arent asking for an easy time, just something thats not a 2nd job to them. Trap Door and the new tfs are just frustrating. Thats what folks are complaining about. My biggest gripe about the Apex TF is that when you come out of the building in the 2nd mission you are insta-killed by the patches because opening the door roots you for 3 seconds. So unless you have someone already on the other side watching the door its pretty much a death trap. Its why I refuse to do the tf again once I have that badge. Its simply not worth my time to die over and over again.

Then don't die.

If you don't enjoy the TFs or the new content, don't play it. If you don't enjoy the game, why are you still playing it?

The simplest solution to content you don't like is skipping it. I avoid certain TFs, contacts and villain groups because I don't enjoy fighting them. Someone might like them, but that someone is not me. Do they need changing because I don't like them? No. There is loads of other stuff I can do instead.

Normally I dont agree with you but you have a good point. I too believe that the incarnate system is just going to end up being fluff before its over with because they will put things in place to negate what we earned. I cant see them allowing us to be lvl 60 and still do things like the ITF without some kind of penalty in place. We will never be on the same level or even remotely close to the incarnates. Being super kind of went out of the window back in issue 2 so I am not expecting much from this system at all.

LMAO.... Use a bit of tactics, and LOOK down over the edge of the building before exiting through the door to see if it is safe to exit. It ain't exactly rocket science here.

Broadly speaking the point of 'rewards' is to allow the player to face more potent challenges, not to let them walk over existing ones.

So, uh, welcome to every game ever made, ever.

casting an eye back to my pen and paper roots, we didn't earn glowing plate mail and magic swords so we could wale on Kobolds more efficiently, but so we could go after dragons.

That doesnt always work. Been there done that. The patch kills you as soon as you come out the door. And where are yall getting this 8 second warning thing from, its way less than that from what I can tell. Maybe 4 seconds at most before the patches start doing damage. Given that the door roots you for 3 seconds you wont always have time to get away.

Yeah I get that but in the end its going to come back and hurt the other players who are doing existing end game content who arent incarnates or even level 50 yet. They will end up doing something to negate what power we earned. It might not be a level shift but they will do something, but that something will negatively impact the non-incarnates.

Actually, it does give you plenty of time to move. Let's say your team completely wipes during Phase 3 when BM is putting out four halberds at once. Since no one is down below, the first person to go in will automatically get targeted, giving that person, let's say not 8 seconds, but as a fact, at least 5 seconds. Plenty of time to move away. But again, all it takes to avoid the door of death is communication. Ask your team mates, is it safe? And no, communication is not too much to ask of an endgame TF. If you have no team mates down there, it's safe anyways. You'll be rooted for 3 seconds, giving you at least 2 seconds to move away. Sprint and Swift will clear that.

Some of my characters