The Impossible Mr. Trapdoor and Issue 19's New Theme
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-12-21 17:42 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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You have a very high post count, that makes you a "muchkin power gamer" too then |
I think that speaks volumes on what the average player thinks about Apex and Tin Mage, as opposed to the vocal minority of Muchkin power gamers on these forums who've propped up these two disasters. |
I've only done the tin mage taskforce once and that was last night because i just hadnt had enough time to do one yet, guess what? I loved the difficulty of it. It wasnt so hard that people wanted to just give up on it, but was just the right level for an ENDGAME taskforce.
The only reason i play my 50's now are for the shards
Long live the shards!
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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Every single time I advertise for the Apex TF, I have to turn people away (I do a first come, first serve, damn the AT and powerset). If people "hate" these TFs, I haven't seen it.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Just for fun I went around to several servers last night during "prime time"; Freedom, Triumph, Virtue and Infinity.
Apex and Tin Mage sat alone while Lady Grey and Imperious had plenty of company with people lined up to do their TFs. I think that speaks volumes on what the average player thinks about Apex and Tin Mage, as opposed to the vocal minority of Muchkin power gamers on these forums who've propped up these two disasters. May the i19 TFs and the devs "new development direction" be swiftly ignored, fall into obscurity and forgotten like the Shard TFs and other wastes of development resources. |
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Just some cautionary advice: I don't think the shards will be good for anything other than the Alpha slot.|
Originally Posted by EU_Damz
The only reason i play my 50's now are for the shards
Long live the shards! |
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| Faint impressions of Incarnate essence can be found almost everywhere. Claim and combine them to form and improve Alpha Incarnate Components. |
Just the way I'm rolling on it for now.
YMMV.
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Well, you must have hid in Faultline with broadcast off or something, because I turned down two Apex TFs and a Tin Mage TF between 5 and 7 PST, and then another two Tin Mages after 10 PST because I was already in one. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Just for fun I went around to several servers last night during "prime time"; Freedom, Triumph, Virtue and Infinity.
Apex and Tin Mage sat alone while Lady Grey and Imperious had plenty of company with people lined up to do their TFs. I think that speaks volumes on what the average player thinks about Apex and Tin Mage, as opposed to the vocal minority of Muchkin power gamers on these forums who've propped up these two disasters. May the i19 TFs and the devs "new development direction" be swiftly ignored, fall into obscurity and forgotten like the Shard TFs and other wastes of development resources. . |
Being able to adapt to new things isn't a sign of being a munchkin powergamer, but refusing to adapt to new things and crying about it is surely a sign of something. There's nothing wrong with having TFs that are a little more involved than a series of semirelated paper missions.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
This has always been the game I come home to.
And the reason why I always come back to this game is that other games too often feature gimmicky fights that have to be failed over and over again until you get the precise choreography down to defeat them. With practice you can master the steps; then it becomes largely a test of the latency of your connection. I dislike gimmick fights for many reasons. I don't play games to experience frustration, which is what I hear when people start talking about "challenge". I want a relaxing experience where you get to roll over stuff at a fast pace. This has always been this game's chief attraction for me, and I hesitate to lose it. More importantly, gimmick fights increase tension in the player base. If you can wipe the raid by being out of place or doing the wrong thing at the wrong time, the more experienced player will look at the "noob" player with elitism and condescending intolerance. They're likely to do the wrong thing and cause a failure. If they had our experience and skills we would have won. Our community is more sweetness and light than most games' because our game is easy. I say we should keep it easy. The problem with Trapdoor is that it is either trivial or tedious. If you can keep Trapdoor held, it's trivial. If you have to chase down each clone it is tedious, even if you have the DPS to eventually succeed. It's particularly tedious on melee sets without holds. The only way to make it not tiresome to all power sets, including melee sets without controls and low damage ATs without holds, is to re-enable the "break LOS" strategy. When was the last time anyone went recruiting for a Cathedral of Pain trial on your server's global channels? |
Seems that this thread is beginning to mirror my online experience with the new TFs: bad players hate them and want everything to be facerolled. The ones I have been on, everyone has done fine, once they realized that standing still didn't work. Believe it or not, you can fight on the move and it's still pretty darned easy. Trapdoor giving you grief? Bring a friend! Or a Shivan. Or cry about it on the forums, but that likely won't get you far.
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On the other hand, you can own several alpha slot powers simultaneously, and swap them in and out with few restrictions.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
If you're grinding for them with the thought of stockpiling for your other 9 Incarnate slots, you may want to reconsider until more information comes to light.
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<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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And it begins.
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Originally Posted by Emberly
Seems that this thread is beginning to mirror my online experience with the new TFs: bad players hate them and want everything to be facerolled.
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<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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Sorry but I disagree, this new direction the devs are taking is awful I hate it. Its nothing more than a way to frustrate the players. The whole trap door thing is just flatout wrong by forcing us to beat him their way when almost all the other encounters in the game are nothing like this. The Apex TF is just a TF that I will do only for the badge and after that never run it again. Its just not fun to me getting insta-killed by the patches that kill you as soon as you step off the roof. The whole move and tank thing is stupid because they are using this because they cant change the AI. I dont see why they just dont hire someone who does AI so that we can have smarter critters instead of them using cheats all the time like Battle Maiden patches of doom™, Statesman/Hero-1/M.Bison's perma unstoppable, trap door's insane regen rate. All I am asking for is consistentcy across the board. No more critters doing stuff with identical powers that we cant do, no more insta-kill stuff that gives players no chance to react when they load into a zone.
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Originally Posted by AmazingMOO
Since the most recent patch, I've been hearing one thing over and over again:
"Trapdoor is impossible now." Of course he isn't. He's not even hard as an elite boss goes, but he highlights in very specific terms what's possibly a new development direction, or perhaps even a new encounter theme for City of Heroes. Out of curiosity, I took some, shall we say, very specifically optimized characters to fight him solo. These are characters that are slotted to the extreme end for teaming, including a sonic/sonic defender, an ice/ice blaster, and a dark/ss tank. In each case I was able to defeat Trapdoor with no temporary powers. The difference between being able to fight him successfully and not being able to defeat him boiled down to two things: I was willing to think about how the encounter worked and was then willing to do what was necessary to beat him. It doesn't sound hard. The mission gives you all kinds of hints and clues as to what's needed, so it wasn't very hard to actually do, either. The wonderful Apex Taskforce is another example of this new theme. In the second mission, players are given some broad visual clues as to what's needed to survive and then defeat the arch-villain at the end. The reactions of players to those clues has ranged the gamut. Some people outright ignore them and are then frustrated that they can't win by the tired old rotes they're used to. Some people misinterpret them dramatically. For example, I've seen more than one taskforce leader demand that players not fly during the encounter. Why? Because, 'it makes the death patches appear in the air where you can't see them to avoid them when they kill everything below them'. AOE spheres be damned. Battle Maiden's death patches have become 'columns of death' that can reach from floor to ceiling. Of course not only is misinformation spreading faster than a bootless truth, but the encounter is singling out those who lack an understanding of how certain parts of the game works. Those who understand or are willing to learn about how the game works, however, and are also willing to take a look at the encounter as something that requires thought and action they may not be used to are quickly finding themselves with the 'Already Dead' badge and some other fun shinies. "You are NOT gonna win this fight by standing still and clicking your power buttons over and over again. You're gonna THINK and you're gonna MOVE, or you're going to lose." Good job, Devs. I appreciate the fun new content. And kudos to the players who get it! |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
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Personally, I think that if the devs really wanted to mess with us, they'd make the shards useful for only the Alpha slot...and then, 6 issues later, for the Omega slot.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Just some cautionary advice: I don't think the shards will be good for anything other than the Alpha slot.
If you're grinding for them with the thought of stockpiling for your other 9 Incarnate slots, you may want to reconsider until more information comes to light. Just the way I'm rolling on it for now. YMMV. . |
Specifically, though, I find it unlikely that the other slots WON'T use the shards. They might not use the same incarnate salvage we get from TFs at present (though I find that, also, to be unlikely), but I do expect the shards to still be useful.
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Part of why its not run much is because its way too short. I was expecting the Tf to be at least 5 or 6 missions. Second is fighting 54s is a huge waste of time in terms of rewards over time. Why go thru that when you can easily do an easier TF thats longer and has better rewards for the time spent. I get that they are using the 54s and the debuff to make things harder but to me thats not how they should have done it. It just slows down things more than they should.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Just for fun I went around to several servers last night during "prime time"; Freedom, Triumph, Virtue and Infinity.
Apex and Tin Mage sat alone while Lady Grey and Imperious had plenty of company with people lined up to do their TFs. I think that speaks volumes on what the average player thinks about Apex and Tin Mage, as opposed to the vocal minority of Muchkin power gamers on these forums who've propped up these two disasters. May the i19 TFs and the devs "new development direction" be swiftly ignored, fall into obscurity and forgotten like the Shard TFs and other wastes of development resources. . |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Thank you at last someone who get's it finally. This post cant be quoted enough!!!!
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
This has always been the game I come home to.
And the reason why I always come back to this game is that other games too often feature gimmicky fights that have to be failed over and over again until you get the precise choreography down to defeat them. With practice you can master the steps; then it becomes largely a test of the latency of your connection. I dislike gimmick fights for many reasons. I don't play games to experience frustration, which is what I hear when people start talking about "challenge". I want a relaxing experience where you get to roll over stuff at a fast pace. This has always been this game's chief attraction for me, and I hesitate to lose it. More importantly, gimmick fights increase tension in the player base. If you can wipe the raid by being out of place or doing the wrong thing at the wrong time, the more experienced player will look at the "noob" player with elitism and condescending intolerance. They're likely to do the wrong thing and cause a failure. If they had our experience and skills we would have won. Our community is more sweetness and light than most games' because our game is easy. I say we should keep it easy. The problem with Trapdoor is that it is either trivial or tedious. If you can keep Trapdoor held, it's trivial. If you have to chase down each clone it is tedious, even if you have the DPS to eventually succeed. It's particularly tedious on melee sets without holds. The only way to make it not tiresome to all power sets, including melee sets without controls and low damage ATs without holds, is to re-enable the "break LOS" strategy. When was the last time anyone went recruiting for a Cathedral of Pain trial on your server's global channels? |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
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Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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I'm well aware of speed runs doing LGTF or ITF in 20-30 minutes, but I've never been on them. My average for both is 50 minutes to an hour and change. My average for both Apex and Tin Mage is an hour and change. So timewise, they take the same. But here comes the rewards, for the LGTF or ITF I get a choice of a common incarnate component or 36/26 merits respectively, while for Apex and Tin Mage, it's true, I don't get a choice, but I get both 40 Merits AND 2 Incarnate Shards. With a toon that already has stockpiled common, uncommon components, and shards, I know which one I'll be choosing reward wise, and it isn't a pre-i19 TF.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Part of why its not run much is because its way too short. I was expecting the Tf to be at least 5 or 6 missions. Second is fighting 54s is a huge waste of time in terms of rewards over time. Why go thru that when you can easily do an easier TF thats longer and has better rewards for the time spent. I get that they are using the 54s and the debuff to make things harder but to me thats not how they should have done it. It just slows down things more than they should.
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Because that's exactly what this is about. Munchkins want to show off with content others struggle with but they can boast about being "easy".|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
And it begins.
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It's not enough the game have difficulty settings letting people run a TF against level 54s or be debuffed in an arc to make the enemies inordinately difficult if they chose to.
No, they demand everyone face level 54s and have enemies who are inordinately difficult on the base settings.
It's not about "challenge", it never was about challenge. It's about one group of players who want to feel superior to everyone else and want the game to cater to them. It's about the devs not respecting the notoriety settings and making a game that was always casual friendly and easy, harder instead of telling people to turn up the difficulty settings if they want to be challenged. Lastly, it's about someone without strong ideas of their own copying the mechanics/schticks of raids and encounters in other MMOs and making players dance to the GM's sadistic little jig while watching them faceplant for using the skills and playstyle you spent 5 years forcing on them via power and AT design.
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Ice/Ice is probably one of the easiest things to kill him, all u gotta do is throw your 3 holds and he is done.
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Originally Posted by AmazingMOO
Out of curiosity, I took some, shall we say, very specifically optimized characters to fight him solo. These are characters that are slotted to the extreme end for teaming, including a sonic/sonic defender, an ice/ice blaster, and a dark/ss tank. |
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Joust.|
Originally Posted by Venture
The game. If you activate an attack, you stop moving. Time spent moving is not time spent fighting.
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Activate an attack which is out of range. Run towards your opponent and jump. You will fly through the air animating your attack.
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You will get way more shards doing a kill all or most ITF/LGTF compared to those other TFs and still finish in a better time. So I dont see those new tfs as rewarding enough for the frustration.
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Originally Posted by Rikis
I'm well aware of speed runs doing LGTF or ITF in 20-30 minutes, but I've never been on them. My average for both is 50 minutes to an hour and change. My average for both Apex and Tin Mage is an hour and change. So timewise, they take the same. But here comes the rewards, for the LGTF or ITF I get a choice of a common incarnate component or 36/26 merits respectively, while for Apex and Tin Mage, it's true, I don't get a choice, but I get both 40 Merits AND 2 Incarnate Shards. With a toon that already has stockpiled common, uncommon components, and shards, I know which one I'll be choosing reward wise, and it isn't a pre-i19 TF.
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Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
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Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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The difficulty level of the end game is no more a "new development direction" than Praetorian Clockwork are. The end game content is being simultaneously designed for escalating difficulty to be commensurate with the Incarnate system and more complex content introducing new mission technology: the Incarnate intro arc is just a hint of that new difficulty level. If you don't like it, don't play it. There will be other standard content developed with the conventional difficulty and complexity downstream.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Just for fun I went around to several servers last night during "prime time"; Freedom, Triumph, Virtue and Infinity.
Apex and Tin Mage sat alone while Lady Grey and Imperious had plenty of company with people lined up to do their TFs. I think that speaks volumes on what the average player thinks about Apex and Tin Mage, as opposed to the vocal minority of Muchkin power gamers on these forums who've propped up these two disasters. May the i19 TFs and the devs "new development direction" be swiftly ignored, fall into obscurity and forgotten like the Shard TFs and other wastes of development resources. |
I would expect, still this soon after the Alpha slot was introduced, that people would still be farming shards. If the ratio of ITF to Apex was less than 100 to 1, I would be surprised. I don't consider that to be a reasonable metric of the success of the end game this early in evolution.
In any case, we'll eventually know if the playerbase actually wants an end game progression system that is fundamentally different than the current content. If they do, this is it. If they don't, we're not likely to be getting a progression system that is the same as the standard content, we're just not going to get a progression system at all. A progression system without actual progress is what is known in the game industry as "retarded." And if all the playerbase wanted was more of the same, there would not only be no need for the Incarnate system, there would also be no possible balance-proper way to *add* the Incarnate system as it is remotely envisioned. Its a ludicrous amount of net power to be solely used to stomp on level 50 tip missions.
I'm confident that over time the playerbase as a whole will adjust to the new difficulty, it will just take time. They've done so in the past on smaller scales, vis-a-vis LRSF. Its just a question of culture. The current player culture is heavily influenced by quick Katies and broken AE missions. Future players will grow up in a game with a constellation of content with Trapdoors and Tin Mages, plus ten levels of Incarnate power, and will not consider either of them quite so out of the ordinary.
In any event, the same masses that think Apex is not worth playing as much as ITF also think your tanker theories are tapioca, based on my informal count of players actually playing tankers and thus validating the tanker "direction." Don't get cozy with the mob, the mob is notoriously fickle.
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I can only speak for myself, but I do not run task forces for the sole purpose of find the most efficient farm for loot. I run task forces to try something a bit out of the ordinary, often with lots of Archvillains, on a character. Sure, I might repeat some of the commonly run TFs on my favorite characters, but I personally enjoy running just about any TF, even the old style ones. I have not run the new incarnate TFs on live yet, but that's just because I haven't gotten to them. I've only slotted my alpha boost on one character. However, I really enjoyed the Apex run I did on beta.
Also, you can move during a fight by moving between attacks. That's all I did on say, my Stalker, when I fought Trapdoor. It is NOT a brand new strategy, it is not a direction in the way the game's going, and it's really obviously one of the easiest ways to deal with an elite boss who spawns allies who buff him. How is there an argument about this?
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But here is where you are wrong. There is nothing difficult about any of this new stuff. Its just extremely frustrating when it doesnt have to be. Many of us who work have 8 to 5 jobs and dont want to come home to another form of work. Essentially thats what the incarnate arc, and the 2 new tfs are. Thats what I am saying. They can do this without making it frustrating.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The difficulty level of the end game is no more a "new development direction" than Praetorian Clockwork are. The end game content is being simultaneously designed for escalating difficulty to be commensurate with the Incarnate system and more complex content introducing new mission technology: the Incarnate intro arc is just a hint of that new difficulty level. If you don't like it, don't play it. There will be other standard content developed with the conventional difficulty and complexity downstream.
I would expect, still this soon after the Alpha slot was introduced, that people would still be farming shards. If the ratio of ITF to Apex was less than 100 to 1, I would be surprised. I don't consider that to be a reasonable metric of the success of the end game this early in evolution. In any case, we'll eventually know if the playerbase actually wants an end game progression system that is fundamentally different than the current content. If they do, this is it. If they don't, we're not likely to be getting a progression system that is the same as the standard content, we're just not going to get a progression system at all. A progression system without actual progress is what is known in the game industry as "retarded." And if all the playerbase wanted was more of the same, there would not only be no need for the Incarnate system, there would also be no possible balance-proper way to *add* the Incarnate system as it is remotely envisioned. Its a ludicrous amount of net power to be solely used to stomp on level 50 tip missions. I'm confident that over time the playerbase as a whole will adjust to the new difficulty, it will just take time. They've done so in the past on smaller scales, vis-a-vis LRSF. Its just a question of culture. The current player culture is heavily influenced by quick Katies and broken AE missions. Future players will grow up in a game with a constellation of content with Trapdoors and Tin Mages, plus ten levels of Incarnate power, and will not consider either of them quite so out of the ordinary. In any event, the same masses that think Apex is not worth playing as much as ITF also think your tanker theories are tapioca, based on my informal count of players actually playing tankers and thus validating the tanker "direction." Don't get cozy with the mob, the mob is notoriously fickle. |
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Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Very true, and I think the ITF is a good example of this. When it was new the most popular tactic for Rommy (or at least the most popular tactic based on Virtue PUGs) was "pull him to the grass, separate the healing nictus with a second melee character and pound on him" now it seems to be "charge the steps and gank him". As people become more familiar with content it becomes easier to do and there's less concern about tactics.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm confident that over time the playerbase as a whole will adjust to the new difficulty, it will just take time. They've done so in the past on smaller scales, vis-a-vis LRSF. Its just a question of culture. The current player culture is heavily influenced by quick Katies and broken AE missions. Future players will grow up in a game with a constellation of content with Trapdoors and Tin Mages, plus ten levels of Incarnate power, and will not consider either of them quite so out of the ordinary.
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That mantra may come back to bite the devs. Time will tell, but by then the hour may be too late.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If you don't like it, don't play it.
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| Its a ludicrous amount of net power to be solely used to stomp on level 50 tip missions. |
I ask because I'm working under two assumptions:
-Level shifts only occur in highest tiers of the Alpha (and maybe the Omega) slot, but not the other 8.
-The remaining five Incarnate slots are 'safe' and as much "inside the box" as the the first 5.
If you think I'm wrong about either of these assumptions (granted the second is very subjective) then please say so.
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| I'm confident that over time the playerbase as a whole will adjust to the new difficulty, it will just take time. They've done so in the past on smaller scales, vis-a-vis LRSF. |
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| Its just a question of culture. The current player culture is heavily influenced by quick Katies and broken AE missions. |
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| Future players will grow up in a game with a constellation of content with Trapdoors and Tin Mages, plus ten levels of Incarnate power, and will not consider either of them quite so out of the ordinary. |
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| In any event, the same masses that think Apex is not worth playing as much as ITF also think your tanker theories are tapioca, based on my informal count of players actually playing tankers and thus validating the tanker "direction." |
Also I think tapioca is delicious, so I take the compliment.
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| Don't get cozy with the mob, the mob is notoriously fickle. |
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Given that the leaked info gave all of the slots a level shift and that they've been saying we will effectively be level 60, this assumption seems odd.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
-Level shifts only occur in highest tiers of the Alpha (and maybe the Omega) slot, but not the other 8.
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They said that 'theoretical 60' waaay back before this was even the Incarnate system, so I wouldn't bank on that.|
Originally Posted by Shadow State
Given that the leaked info gave all of the slots a level shift and that they've been saying we will effectively be level 60, this assumption seems odd.
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When I got to see the first five slots, they didn't have Level Shifts besides the Alpha so that is why I'm operating under that assumption until I see otherwise.
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Here's the thing, it's pretty much impossible to design content that all of the player-base enjoys. There is a portion of the player-base that does enjoy doing challenging content and the devs are trying to make content that will appeal to them.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
That mantra may come back to bite the devs. Time will tell, but by then the hour may be too late.
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Personally I have little interest in the new level 20-30 arcs. I played the villain side clone arc on one character who was the right level but I haven't played any of the others. I've not got anything against them but my general focus when playing doesn't lead me towards them (I enjoy the Striga and Croatoa arcs and TFs when I'm leveling in that range). That doesn't mean I think the devs shouldn't have bothered with the arcs, they clearly are trying to appeal to a different portion of the player-base than me with them.
Now the question becomes how much development resources should go towards end-game content versus leveling content. The current approach by the developers seems to favor a balance between the two which is probably the most sensible approach. People who aren't interested in end-game content get a steady trickle of new content (hopefully in level ranges other than 20-30 at some point) and people who want a challenge get that.
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Know what happens if you "joust" with a melee character? You cut your DPS about in half as you spend more time running back to somewhere you can hit the target from as you spend actually hitting the target. The day the devs decided that some characters wouldn't be able to fight effectively at range and that characters can't move while attacking was the day they decided encounters based on mobility would be broken.
| Activate an attack which is out of range. Run towards your opponent and jump. You will fly through the air animating your attack. |
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Because a TF that forces you to work is the equal of 22 boring missions with no challenge?
Could it possibly be that not every player on every server has filled their alpha slot yet?
Oh and... Cathedral of Pain recruit on global channels... just last Sunday. I wasn't able to join though.
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