Tin Mage TF is just ridiculous..
By
BanzaiBadger,
Posted on: 2010-12-19 17:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Bobcat hurts me so good. I like it when she purrs over my aching body.
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Originally Posted by Wolf_Reign
The final mission especially. Has anyone completed this?
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Quote:
I actually do find Apex easier than Tin Mage
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Originally Posted by Valerika
I'm sorry you think that the Tin Mage TF is too hard. Try the Apex TF, it's much, much easier.
*tries not to laugh* |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Quote:
To be completely honest, I find Battle Maiden a much easier fight than the four AV AoE-fest of Bobcat, Neuron and two AV-class Goliath War Walkers. Not that I'm complaining about the four AVs thing, I just see a lot more people die "randomly" in the fight in Praetorea, because it's just going to happen more with that many +4 AVs stomping around. I really just don't find the raining orbital sword thing that hard to deal with.
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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
hehehehehehehehe Oh sorry you said try NOT to laugh. The hardest part of Tin Mage is mission one.. once you get past Director 11 its not that big a deal. And if you think taking on Neuron and Bobcat is tough just wait till you try Battle Maiden and her flying swords/blue clouds of instant death.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I can honestly say I've only died once to the blue patches of death, and that was my first time running the Apex TF in beta. If you're aware of your surroundings you'll never die from them - just look for the visual and audio queues.
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The biggest threat they pose to me is that I'm always queuing powers, and sometimes I'll try to flee without canceling my queued power, meaning I turn and activate something when I should be getting out of the way. I think that got me killed once.
I'm a lot more cavalier about it with ranged characters and on anyone with a self-heal. Most (but not all) of my characters have a self-heal of some sort.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
After that death with the blue patch I made sure every time to only use fast animating powers and to click Escape (to unqueue) while jumping away as soon as I see or hear them coming down.
Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP
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Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
Find it vastly easier than Apex personally.
Of course, my first go at it had two perma Mind Doms and a good amount of debuff/damage, so we perma Confused the War Walkers.
On our most recent pug, we had a Mind/Cold Controller (myself), Stone/Stone Tanker, Ill/Storm Controller, couple Scrappers and I think a Kin Controller.
We ripped through the first two missions pretty easily, Mass Confusion on the mobs in the rescue mission and pulling on the last.
In the last mission, stand to the East of the entrance and have a Blaster or Corruptor snipe pull Neuron. Beat Neuron down until he spawns his clones, then kill enough of them to get Army of Neu badge. Resume pasting Neuron.
War Walkers...we just wailed on one of them, then hit the other. At this point Bobcat's Vengeance had worn off so we just stacked a ton of debuffs on her and crushed her, acquiring "Kitty's Got Claws" along the way.
Tin Mage will likely be the "speed" run out of both of them. Director 11 takes a little time, but if you get enough Warburg Nukes/Shivans/HVAS you can exterminate everything in no time short. Even if you don't, you'll get some defeats but 11 is still pretty manageable.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
Quote:
That's definitely a matter of perspective. I'm guessing you were on a largely ranged team? The few times I've run Apex, I've played a melee character on melee-heavy teams. That doesn't pose a problem on Tin Mage, but it it's pretty hard to stay in melee long enough to do significant damage on Battle Maiden. In order to be effective, you have to stick and move like a small, fast boxer against a bigger, slower opponent. It's not impossible, but it's definitely harder.|
Originally Posted by Santorican
I actually do find Apex easier than Tin Mage
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Quite frankly, I enjoy enemies that require me to think like that, especially since it's still possible to beat them without any specific AT on my team if you use good strategy.
Feel free to try out my AE mission arc, # 473452: Praetorian Redemption
@Valerika
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Both of these are pretty easy.|
Originally Posted by Blood_Beret
I think the final mission of LRSF is actually harder than the Final Mission of Tin Mage. But I have done an LRSF since Incarnates came out.
The hardest part of Tin Mage is getting Midnight Dodger. |
Did a one hour or less Master RSF run last night on Infinity, perma Mind-Dom, Sonic/Sonic COrr, Energy Blast/Rad Emission Corr, SS/Inv Brute, Kin Melee/Inv Scrapper, Fire/Kin Corr, Sonic/Cold Corr, VEAT...we slept the whole bunch then single pulled every AV, no deaths and no sweat.
I'll agree on Midnight Dodger being the hardest part of Tin Mage so far.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
Ridiculously boring. The Goliath War Walkers are generating "Are we there yet?" comments reminiscent of the Hamidon raids of yore.
PenanceжTriage
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Agreed and this is another strike against Apex. You can bring down the ones in Tin Mage in fairly short order because they're there...you don't have to wait for a wave to arrive, then another wave, then another wave...and finally it's over. If level 54 mobs are the new standard, then at least scale back on the Elite Bosses in these missions. A couple of War Walkers is fine but eight in one mission and then more still in Apex...*looks at ITF/LGTF longingly*. |
Originally Posted by Patient_V
Ridiculously boring. The Goliath War Walkers are generating "Are we there yet?" comments reminiscent of the Hamidon raids of yore.
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Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
Quote:
This. It almost doesn't even fit in, as in the difficulty of the badge doesn't feel right for the TF.|
Originally Posted by Neuronia
I'll agree on Midnight Dodger being the hardest part of Tin Mage so far.
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Both Tin Mage and Apex as TFs are NOT hard, but theyre not mind-numbingly boring either. I've run Tin Mage and Apex about 10 times each on live give or take. Every single Apex run has been a master run, getting master on every single run without even trying is... unsatisfying. On the other hand is Tin Mage where I have gotten master twice out of about 10 runs (the other times we weren't actually trying for the badge though because it's a pain to get). The first time using the aoe immobilize strategy with my troller(which doesnt work anymore) the other time being a nuke run. Nukes, while not necessary to get the badge by some players are still pretty much needed by the average player to earn this badge. The badge shouldn't be set at a difficulty where average players are forced into using temps to earn something.
Basically the problems I see are:
Master of Apex is FAR too easy to get. It needs another challenge that can't be earned easily on every run.
Master of Tin Mage is too hard to get because of Midnight Dodger.
Nukes/Temp pets shouldnt be needed to earn badges by the average player.
Melee are near useless in the director 11 fight if the team is going for the badge without the use of nukes/temp pets.
The actual TFs themselves are perfect (outside of some possible reward tweaking). The issue is when it comes to masters. Apex needs to have more of a challenge to get masters and Tin Mage needs to lower the difficulty on achieving midnight dodger without the use of lame strategies.
Quote:
Like that? http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=247401|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
This. It almost doesn't even fit in, as in the difficulty of the badge doesn't feel right for the TF.
Both Tin Mage and Apex as TFs are NOT hard, but theyre not mind-numbingly boring either. I've run Tin Mage and Apex about 10 times each on live give or take. Every single Apex run has been a master run, getting master on every single run without even trying is... unsatisfying. On the other hand is Tin Mage where I have gotten master twice out of about 10 runs (the other times we weren't actually trying for the badge though because it's a pain to get). The first time using the aoe immobilize strategy with my troller(which doesnt work anymore) the other time being a nuke run. Nukes, while not necessary to get the badge by some players are still pretty much needed by the average player to earn this badge. The badge shouldn't be set at a difficulty where average players are forced into using temps to earn something. Basically the problems I see are: Master of Apex is FAR too easy to get. It needs another challenge that can't be earned easily on every run. |
Quote:
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Master of Tin Mage is too hard to get because of Midnight Dodger. Nukes/Temp pets shouldnt be needed to earn badges by the average player. Melee are near useless in the director 11 fight if the team is going for the badge without the use of nukes/temp pets. The actual TFs themselves are perfect (outside of some possible reward tweaking). The issue is when it comes to masters. Apex needs to have more of a challenge to get masters and Tin Mage needs to lower the difficulty on achieving midnight dodger without the use of lame strategies. |
Quote:
Yes, the last mission is pretty easy. Actually the whole TF is ridiculous as you say, RIDICULOUSLY FUN! |
Originally Posted by Wolf_Reign
The final mission especially. Has anyone completed this?
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Apex is more fun and does have a more epic feel IMO. My BS/Regen wants DOOM swords though.... |
Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
Have done it many times by now, at the estimated one hour mark or less.
Most people that I run both TFs with usually tell me they like the Apex TF better, specifically the epic feeling from the first mission and the Battle Maiden fight. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
The first time I did Apex was on a team of six melees, a Blaster and a Defender. We got the Battle Maiden badge without having it as a goal, and we used no temps.|
Originally Posted by Valerika
That's definitely a matter of perspective. I'm guessing you were on a largely ranged team? The few times I've run Apex, I've played a melee character on melee-heavy teams. That doesn't pose a problem on Tin Mage, but it it's pretty hard to stay in melee long enough to do significant damage on Battle Maiden. In order to be effective, you have to stick and move like a small, fast boxer against a bigger, slower opponent. It's not impossible, but it's definitely harder.
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Harder? Yeah. Not overly hard, though, IMO.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I don't get it. Is it taking people a really long time to take them down or something? On the runs I've been on, the EB versions melt like chocolate in a hot oven.|
Originally Posted by Neuronia
Agreed and this is another strike against Apex. You can bring down the ones in Tin Mage in fairly short order because they're there...you don't have to wait for a wave to arrive, then another wave, then another wave...and finally it's over. If level 54 mobs are the new standard, then at least scale back on the Elite Bosses in these missions. A couple of War Walkers is fine but eight in one mission and then more still in Apex...*looks at ITF/LGTF longingly*.
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I never even noticed the wait between spawns. I'm sure it's far, far shorter than, say, the Dr. Aeon cutscene in the STF.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I am well aware of your run, I'm not sure what your point of posting it was though. Also notice how I said "Nukes, while not necessary to get the badge by some players are still pretty much needed by the average player to earn this badge."|
Originally Posted by NordBlast
Like that? http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=247401
My friends and I think that new type of "Master of" badges cheapens "Master of" STF and RSF. We would rather have new badges renamed to "Specialist of" or something like that. |
I am sure my group of regulars could do the same as you with little difficulty, the point of my post was for the average player, not myself. The badge isn't reasonable for them imho.
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My point was that "Master of APEX" itself (the way it is awarded right now) is too easy. You can get it by accident without even trying for it.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
I am well aware of your run, I'm not sure what your point of posting it was though. Also notice how I said "Nukes, while not necessary to get the badge by some players are still pretty much needed by the average player to earn this badge."
I am sure my group of regulars could do the same as you with little difficulty, the point of my post was for the average player, not myself. The badge isn't reasonable for them imho. |
On multiple runs many players were like "What?! Master of APEX? But I have died few times on last mission, how is it possible?"
These things shouldn't be called "Master of" IMO.
Quote:
I find I can usually get 1 - 2 attacks off once the blue circles appear.|
Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
I can honestly say I've only died once to the blue patches of death, and that was my first time running the Apex TF in beta. If you're aware of your surroundings you'll never die from them - just look for the visual and audio queues. |
Also, if you time it right, you jump away and have an attack go off on your target as soon as land.
On live I've only died twice on the blue patches (so far)...1 on the all scrapper Apex we ran on test, where I got stuck under a building and between another scrapper, and once on another run when I jumped away, qued an attack (confront) and landed in a different blue patch while taunting BM
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Quote:
Lol, yeah I just mixed up Apex and Tin Mage when responding to your post, my bad, I haven't slept.|
Originally Posted by NordBlast
My point was that "Master of APEX" itself (the way it is awarded right now) is too easy. You can get it by accident without even trying for it.
On multiple runs many players were like "What?! Master of APEX? But I have died few times on last mission, how is it possible?" These things shouldn't be called "Master of" IMO. |
You're completely right about Master of Apex though.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
The biggest threat they pose to me is that I'm always queuing powers, and sometimes I'll try to flee without canceling my queued power, meaning I turn and activate something when I should be getting out of the way. I think that got me killed once.
I'm a lot more cavalier about it with ranged characters and on anyone with a self-heal. Most (but not all) of my characters have a self-heal of some sort. |
Yeah this is what usually gets me too. I guess I am still used to the mindset of stand and fight. Apex always seems like more of a contest to see if you can avoid attacks rather than attacking.I always feel like I am spending way too much time trying to stay alive and way to little actually trying to defeat my opponent. Tin mage is more the standard format I am used to.. sure the AVs are tough and the mobs are +4 but I can stand my ground and fire away until nothing is left.
I do love the first mission of Apex. The three sepearte parts make it interesting and I LOVE battling the Warwalkers to defend the PPD HQ in Kings Row.
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did both successfully on the first try..although i lead a team who hadnt done it before either in beta or open beta and they had to get use to the idea of actually not standfing still.
but we got it ..tin mage was easy...well easy (er) :P
Quote:
You can sometimes have a bit of a wait if your team is destroying each rush in under 4-8 seconds. The biggest annoyance in those circumstances comes from trying to ascertain where the EB is coming from so you can get the team over to it rather than waiting for it to slowly lumber on over.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I don't get it. Is it taking people a really long time to take them down or something? On the runs I've been on, the EB versions melt like chocolate in a hot oven.
I never even noticed the wait between spawns. I'm sure it's far, far shorter than, say, the Dr. Aeon cutscene in the STF. |
But yes, it's a matter of just a few seconds of waiting as opposed to say, the 90 seconds of the Aeon cutscene. Yeah, it's neat and novel the first couple of times...and then your team in Issue 9 decides to farm it literally hundreds of times over the course of a few months. We stopped counting somewhere around the 300th run, once it was pointed out that we had had to sit through the Aeon cutscene for over 7 hours of accumulated time.
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I really do like the novelty of the Incarnate TFs. It's always fun to see a first-timer on the Tin Mage get surprised by the Goliath War Walker's death surprise.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
Agreed... we need more like these.
Managed Apex yesterday with a PuG! Didnt manage to take out Battle Maiden in 15 min though. Will try Tin Mage asap.
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