Tin Mage TF is just ridiculous..
By
BanzaiBadger,
Posted on: 2010-12-19 17:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't have a lot of friends, not many who are still with the game, anyway, but very often I can scrounge up at least ONE other person if I feel like doing something more adventurous. Having the ability to do so with TFs would actually be very welcome.
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I will play with the boy! Come, I shall raise you with the herd, to be one with the elements!
/Bambi.
Errrr, I'd love to team with you, Sam... on Freedom or Virtue. :P
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This is why I'm concerned when Arcana says that Trapdoor being more difficult is just the tip of the iceberg. The Incarnate slots are character progression not only in a storytelling sense but in a technical sense. You build a 50 to an Alpha-Slotted character similarly to how you would build a 49 to a 50, or a 35 to a 36. And that's what I like - building characters. If doing that involves slogging along rather than being tested, I don't particularly care (heck, I've played Civ games out to 2100 when I'd "won" 300 years earlier, just because I liked building things).|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
We can go round and round in circles, but the bottom line remains the same - the Incarnate system constitutes a level cap increase. They're careful not to call it that so they don't have to make content for it like they would for a level range, but the fact of the matter is that they do. And two arcs per Issue ain't gonna' cut it. Now, I know that quality work takes time and effort, so two arcs plus two TFs is about the most the developers can do. I appreciate that.
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Nobody was ever told they weren't good enough to level to 20, 30, 40, 50. It doesn't matter how good you are, you progressed. It might take some longer than others, but it could be done. If incarnate levels are actually tied to ability and that ends up gating folks from levels...well, I'm not thrilled about that idea*.
Now, the TF - go to town. Make them as hard as you need to, because their completion is (so far) completely optional. If you want that challenge, go for it. If you don't, skip it.
* My kids just got Kirby's Epic Yarn for Christmas. The game isn't very hard - you can't die, and as long as you keep going from left to right you progress throughout the game. I actually think this is nice, because players of any ability can enjoy all of the base levels. But, there are still things within the game - items to grab, bronze/silver/gold medals - that can pose a challenge for better players. The Mario games are the same way. I'd rather see Incarnates be more like this than being like old-school games where if you can't get by one roadblock, one boss you just can't beat and the game is basically over.
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For me the gameplay mechanics have always been my main enjoyment from the game. The story takes the backseat but is most definitely appreciated when presented and written well.
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Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
Quote:
Hmmm...an allegedly optional side-game, based on 1337-ness, that nonetheless grants rewards that will be extremely useful in the main game...yup, it's PvP all over again. |
Originally Posted by gec72
Nobody was ever told they weren't good enough to level to 20, 30, 40, 50. It doesn't matter how good you are, you progressed. It might take some longer than others, but it could be done. If incarnate levels are actually tied to ability and that ends up gating folks from levels...well, I'm not thrilled about that idea*.
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But the core of this issue is about why people can't get past the roadblock. Is it because they honestly and truly can't? Or is it because they need to prepare more or play differently than they have before?|
Originally Posted by gec72
I'd rather see Incarnates be more like this than being like old-school games where if you can't get by one roadblock, one boss you just can't beat and the game is basically over.
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I'm willing to say that the former is inherently bad, but I'm not willing to say that the latter is, even though I might not personally like it.
Trapdoor is conquerable, but he calls for teamwork or very strong solo characters. "Can't beat that way" is not the same as "can't beat", but I think too many folks don't want to change how they play. I can't buy into the notion that the devs have to design around people who can't/won't do any of the following: get a team, seek out temp powers, or build (by whatever means) for high offensive output. I'm not OK with the idea that Incarnate content has to be soloable by, say, a support Empath's raw offensive power. I am open to there being a way for the support empath to win on their own, and that's why I am not nuts about the change making it so it's impossible to pull Trappy from his clones, no matter how much it violated the thematic intent of the encounter. I think making alternate solutions to brute force is good, but in the absence of them, I don't want the main solution of raw damage to have its bar that low.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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When we have to battle one another to earn our Incarnate levels, I'll buy into the notion that it's PvP all over again.
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Originally Posted by JKCarrier
Hmmm...an allegedly optional side-game, based on 1337-ness, that nonetheless grants rewards that will be extremely useful in the main game...yup, it's PvP all over again.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Oh yeah? Wanna fight about it?! |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
When we have to battle one another to earn our Incarnate levels, I'll buy into the notion that it's PvP all over again.
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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
But the core of this issue is about why people can't get past the roadblock. Is it because they honestly and truly can't? Or is it because they need to prepare more or play differently than they have before?
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^ This.
Seriously. ^ This.
You're not listening! ^ THIS.
WHY WON'T YOU LISTEN TO US? ^ THIS x10000000!
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* teleports Schismatrix next to the nearest Moderator drone
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Oh yeah? Wanna fight about it?!
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
You wouldn't happen to be a professor of sociology, would you? |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
* teleports Schismatrix next to the nearest Moderator drone
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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
I think it should be like this:
Whoever can go for FOURTEEN DAYS without being auto-logged off of the Forums wins Immunity, er, I mean unlocks the Alpha Slot for all existing and future level 50 characters (never have to do that arc again) and for each day they remain un-auto-logged off the forums thereafter, a shard!
I double dog dare the devs to do this.
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Eh, how is offering a reward they'll never have to give something that requires a dare? Not to mention that it'll just be incentive to leave the forums as they are.
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Originally Posted by Flarstux
I think it should be like this:
Whoever can go for FOURTEEN DAYS without being auto-logged off of the Forums wins Immunity, er, I mean unlocks the Alpha Slot for all existing and future level 50 characters (never have to do that arc again) and for each day they remain un-auto-logged off the forums thereafter, a shard! I double dog dare the devs to do this. |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Obviously, I didn't mean it would literally turn into PvP. But the debate is already falling into a similar pattern:|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
When we have to battle one another to earn our Incarnate levels, I'll buy into the notion that it's PvP all over again.
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"It's easy and fun. You're just afraid of a challenge and should Lrn2Play. If you can't hack it, you don't deserve the goodies."
vs.
"It's a miserable grind. You're just a min-maxing munchkin waving their e-peen around. I should be able to get the goodies without being forced into a playstyle I don't enjoy."
Sound familiar?
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191775: How the Other Half Lives
My Webcomics
Quote:
The former, to an extent. The latter, not so much. I don't think the arguments against PvP nearly so much overlapped with the min/maxing and grinding side of things. The people who didn't want to do it mostly objected to what they perceived as the confrontational and unfriendly personalities of the people in PvP zones, and their perceived willingness to relentlessly "abuse" those less skilled than them.|
Originally Posted by JKCarrier
"It's easy and fun. You're just afraid of a challenge and should Lrn2Play. If you can't hack it, you don't deserve the goodies."
vs. "It's a miserable grind. You're just a min-maxing munchkin waving their e-peen around. I should be able to get the goodies without being forced into a playstyle I don't enjoy." Sound familiar? |
In other words, I only see some very superficial comparisons, on either side of the debate.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Because HERE, right HERE, is where the TRUE challenge lies.|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Eh, how is offering a reward they'll never have to give something that requires a dare? Not to mention that it'll just be incentive to leave the forums as they are.
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Forget Trapdoor. Forget all those other guys in all the TFs and Trials and whatever.
Let us fight...
THE FORUMS.
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Thanks the gods, no.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
You wouldn't happen to be a professor of sociology, would you?
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I'm sorry but could you please repeat that again?
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Originally Posted by RadDidIt
^ This.
Seriously. ^ This. You're not listening! ^ THIS. WHY WON'T YOU LISTEN TO US? ^ THIS x10000000! |
Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP
Remember kids, crack is whack!
Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
Quote:
i agree. While i know people who are big fans of PvP and fun people to play with, the majority of people i've encountered in PvP zones, or who blatantly advertised a preference for PvP, have been unpleasant people. Whether or not they're better at PvP ("1337") is irrelevant since they tend to be even less pleasant when they lose.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
The former, to an extent. The latter, not so much. I don't think the arguments against PvP nearly so much overlapped with the min/maxing and grinding side of things. The people who didn't want to do it mostly objected to what they perceived as the confrontational and unfriendly personalities of the people in PvP zones, and their perceived willingness to relentlessly "abuse" those less skilled than them.
In other words, I only see some very superficial comparisons, on either side of the debate. |
The thing is that, like virtually every other part of the game, Incarnate content like the Tin Mage 2 TF doesn't require that every member of the team be good at playing, or even to contribute significantly. That's not to say that i would be accepting of someone sitting at the door for the whole TF. i don't expect every teammate to be "1337" (or even competent), but i do expect them to try.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Wait! Tin Mage 2????
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Tin Mage 2 TF
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Check out all of Noble Savage's Art threads! All things art, Super Boosters, 'Lost' Costume Pieces, Buildings, Animations, and NPC Costume Piece Conversion
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The contact is actually Tin Mage Mark II. He's a reconstructed version of the original Tin Mage.|
Originally Posted by Pedro Schwartz
Wait! Tin Mage 2????
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Most everyone just calls it the "Tin Mage TF" for brevity.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
OOOHHH!And I thought there was ANOTHER Tin Mage TF and I didn't knew about it...
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
The contact is actually Tin Mage Mark II. He's a reconstructed version of the original Tin Mage.
Most everyone just calls it the "Tin Mage TF" for brevity. |
Check out all of Noble Savage's Art threads! All things art, Super Boosters, 'Lost' Costume Pieces, Buildings, Animations, and NPC Costume Piece Conversion
I guess what I don't understand is how people who aren't bothered to optimized their character (you know, seek out power) are worked up about not having access to the incarnate stuff when it is all about seeking power? If you have a vision of your character being as powerful as they can be, but you aren't really willing to lift a finger to do it, I just don't get it.
I too dislike that the 'pull trapdoor' method was removed, but I can live with it. I can also see the logic of it.
I can't see the logic of someone who intentionally runs Captain Gimpy wanting to save the world by himself and being put off when he's too gimpy to do it.
I can see an argument for making solo incarnate content. That is fair and a good idea. However it should be hard stuff. It should be something which Captain Gimpy isn't going to cut it for.
If incarnate content were to be easy, then you really have something which blows holes in the internal logic of the storyline.
Too many alts to list.
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Only the cool kids on the block know about the Secret Cow Level.
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Originally Posted by Pedro Schwartz
OOOHHH!And I thought there was ANOTHER Tin Mage TF and I didn't knew about it...
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Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP
Remember kids, crack is whack!
Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
Quote:
Ok, I can see the validity in this. But how about building that into the system/arc? Don't have the player have to retrieve Shivans, or HVAS, or nukes. An option from Ramiel, or Statesman, or the Well itself that says "If you feel you are not prepared, I know of ______ which may be obtained that can help you in your effort". Obtaining ______ can be done by putting forth more effort elsewhere - branching/side missions, perhaps.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
But the core of this issue is about why people can't get past the roadblock. Is it because they honestly and truly can't? Or is it because they need to prepare more or play differently than they have before?
I'm willing to say that the former is inherently bad, but I'm not willing to say that the latter is, even though I might not personally like it. Trapdoor is conquerable, but he calls for teamwork or very strong solo characters. "Can't beat that way" is not the same as "can't beat", but I think too many folks don't want to change how they play. I can't buy into the notion that the devs have to design around people who can't/won't do any of the following: get a team, seek out temp powers, or build (by whatever means) for high offensive output. |
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
I think they could do something like that, but I suspect (and it's just my fevered brain, nothing more) that they wouldn't see the point in just tossing the existing TFs out there with no TF "restrictions". I mean, hey, if they just want to slap them all in Ouroboros basically unchanged, and let people run them with the "no AVs" toggle on, they could probably do that next issue or something. I don't think that lines up with how I interpret their content vision, though, or that's just what they'd do now, with everything. Why even have TF contacts, then? Just make Ouro the place you go to form TFs.
Like I tried to say, I probably don't object strongly to the basic idea. I just don't think they'd implement it like this, and that actually means its not so low-hanging a fruit as was being suggested. Does that mean it's a bad idea. Nope. Whether or not it's a bad idea really isn't related to that. It just affects whether they would do it sooner or later, if they were going to do it at all.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA