Tin Mage TF is just ridiculous..

Hyperbole, in this situation, does not help. None of the adjectives you've used
apply to the new content. Sure, there should be story arcs, and I'd be surprised if they weren't coming in the future. But the new TF's are none of the of the things you've claimed. I personally have completed them both, (and seen enough similar anecdotes to know my case wasn't some once in a lifetime fluke) on my mildly IO'd blaster, with no experience with either of them, on PUGs assembled from the first 8 Alpha slotted people to respond. NO research, NOT brutally difficult (harder than things we've all experienced, but it's new...to be expected), no min-maxing, completed in under 90 minutes, and at best, dual-tasking, (attack, move) at least as a blaster. I'd think that someone playing a support class would have 50 levels of experience at supporting the team and keeping themselves alive...so they already can multi-task.

What does that have to do with me? I don't play support ATs and I don't remember ever alluding to it.

If you think this is hyperbole, then you're ignoring mountains of context. Every time someone has complained about the difficulty of ANYTHING, the response has been to bring shivans, or to use tactics, or to use inspirations, or to think before acting, or to bring a team, or make a better build, or to buy better Inventions or whatever the current slogan is at the time. These days it seems like it's SHAMEFUL to say that something is hard because you will immediately be beset with people who had an easy time of it and are all too happy to explain how you suck in fine detail. While this is not a new factor, it has never been as popular as it has been since I19.

As far as the TFs go, what I can say for a fact is that they are difficult, complicated, intentionally stacked against the players with the mandatory +4 enemies and locked to 8 people to start them. These are unquestionable facts, and they are the root of the problem - this is the very definition of an elite end-game encounter. I have no problem with these per se. The Statesman and Recluse TFs have been in the game for a long time now, and not even once have I complained about them. They're the hard stuff people do at the end of the game, if that's what they choose to do.

What I HAVE complained about is that all of the new content that's coming out seems to be designed to be at least as difficult as those, and potentially even more so as we gain level shifts and Incarnate powers. There are no story arcs that count as such which came with I19, and none have been announced with I20, either. None to do with Incarnate content, at the very least. Yes, there are the two new ones - Roy Cooling and Vincent Ross - but they are 20-30 arcs, and not Incarnate content.

You say you're surprised if Incarnate story arcs aren't added in the future. I, on the other hand, would be AMAZED if they are, discounting the possibility of that odd short arc to unlock the next slot which isn't designed to be soloable anyway. But there's really no place to use our Incarnate powers other on on 8-man abnormally difficult TFs which have the effect of making those powers feel significantly lesser by virtue of the hideously increased difficulty.

The I19 TFs are hard. They're designed to be hard. That's their point. And while I don't mind the existence of hard TFs, that's usually because I have other content to do in addition to them. No such "other" content exists for Incarnates, and it doesn't look like it will ever exist given the way they are marketing this system.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

They better start factoring in IO and Alpha slot bonuses for end game content. Otherwise it's just more 1-50 content which is lame.

Considering that's what I've been asking for since day 1, I have to disagree.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Of course they should take into account Incarnate slotting, since that's the whole point of the end game system. IO sets are tricky though. There are so many options, how do you assume anything without forcing every player to build all their characters a certain way? I would hope CoH never falls into the trap of "one right way" to build a character. Options are a good thing.

First off, most this post, although sprinkled with facts, if full of hyperbole and wild speculation.

As far as the shameful comment, that smacks of personal issues like self-esteem to me. If one cannot read an Internet message board without feeling personal shame, I really think one might want to take a step back. Just because someone shares triumphs and makes suggestions about how others can do the same is NOT automatically belittling them, even if the reader of the advice thinks it might be, it's called constructive criticism. While there are rude and belittling people posting, lumping everyone that gives advice on a problem into group like that is quite rude in and of itself.

The rest of your complaint, that you have harped upon in oh so many threads, is more speculation that anything, Sam. We DO NOT KNOW what content the future will bring. Making the assumption that it is going to be more of the same does not work for Incarnate system expansion any more than it does for general game growth. The developers have added a number of things not the like the others.

And as for 'nothing to do with incarnates', my Incarnate powers have been working just fine on all of the 50th level content I have been doing. You get the boost, with or without specifically added content, even now.

I grow weary of seeing all of this negative, tempest in a teacup, 'oh noes the Incarnate game is so hard' crap, on top of the 'I must be able to solo anything' BS.

If the game grows too much in a certain direction for you like it any longer, that is a sad but possible outcome to the story. But I am really tired of the whining that learning new ways to play the game, or having to spend more time on a game that is a time-sink, is something bad for the game, because IMO, the recent changes have brought more life into the game that it has ever had.

Well, there's a 16-24 player raid on the BAF being worked on for I20

You and I must be reading different forums, then. You know why these threads get so long every time they come up? When people say they can't beat Trapdoor, they get told to learn to play. When people say they can't beat the Honoree, they get told to learn to play. When people say the Tin Mage TF is hard they get told they're exaggerating and they need to learn to play.

I don't take shame in this. It's other people talking down to me like I should be ashamed of it. It's other people regarding me like I'm trying to steal their game when I suggest that maybe things are too hard, or that maybe I'd like to have some solo content, too. Oh, no, this is an MMO. If I want to play solo, I should go play Halo or Counter-Strike or GTA or whatever the popular game at the time.

There have been people giving genuine advise. A fair few, I might add. There have been plenty of people acting like they're giving advise, but not thinking twice about verbally backhanding you if you say you can't or don't want to do that. And there have been even a fair few people believing that only they and a few other "elite" players actually "deserve" to be Incarnates and that all the rest of us are stealing their shards and stealing their honour and ruining their game by making it cater to the "lowest common denominator," which seems to be the buzz word these days.

I welcome guides and the generous people who make them. What I DON'T welcome is insisting that an encounter isn't hard enough because one person could beat it easily on a few characters. And woe betide you if you say you don't want to "frankenslot."

Positron already talks about adding more "trials" to I20 and has not even mentioned the word "story arc" in relation to the system, not that I have seen.

But let's go one further. I will make you a bet that we WILL NOT get a single Incarnate story arc that is not a slot unlock in all of 2011. If I'm wrong, then I will gladly eat crow and apologise. But I will not be wrong. Because the developers have been more than clear up to this point as to what the Incarnate system will be, and after two Issues of bouncing that system around and a third coming, I have no faith left that it will be anything but that. Ever.

Yeah, and how long do you think that'll last? How many level shifts before the old game no longer applies? How many Incarnate powers before it's trivial? Or, to be much more realistic, how long until you've done all the level 50 content? Because when all new content is TFs and Trials and Raids, that's all we'll have left, and that doesn't last forever. Hell, it doesn't last long enough to get an Uncommon out of it by yourself if you're unlucky.

Yes, go ahead and belittle people's opinions. That's a sure way to make me see how people just want to help me and welcome me. Surely with this kind of attitude I have no leg to stand on to complain about how people keep telling me the game is not for me all of a sudden.

You know what? The game was perfect for me in 2004, and it's been perfect for me ever since. So forgive me if I don't take lightly to being told it's suddenly completely not for me and I should go play something else. "Shape up or ship out." or "Go play WoW." or "This game is all of a sudden no longer for you." does not work in a seven-year-old game with an established playerbase with such a high percentage of veteran players. I'm by far not the oldest player here. I wasn't even in CoH beta. But suddenly turning around and making the game into something completely different - and considering many of us bought City of Heroes because it didn't have raid grind - is not a good idea.

You say the recent changes have brought more life into the game. Praetoria, maybe, but in my eyes the "recent changes" have done nothing more than start the destruction of the soul of the game. It's been barely a month since the release of I19, and already the community is turning into something I really, really, really don't like.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Level of lame-ness aside, making the End Game content (which has a separate sub team of devs devoted to it) the same as the rest of the game would missing the entire point. If it were to be just more of the same, there'd be no need to split the dev staff in such a manner. They'd just pump out some missions and stories and call it a day. It's going to be different, and it going to be harder, harder if for no other reason than it's going to assume the players are going to be Incarnate slotted. And it's also, like pretty much everything else in the game, going to be optional.

Also, the reason I mentioned support chars in my previous post is because they're the ones that have to multi-task the most, not because you have or mentioned one, Sam.

See, this is the crux of my problem. I don't actually mind the TFs, or indeed making encounters harder with the expectation that I'll have Incarnate buffs slotted. After all, getting Incarnate buffs is the point of the system.

However, what I do mind is this apparent trend in end game not just here but in all MMOs to be where the "real game" starts, where "real game" tends to mean raids. Nothing wrong with raids as long as there are alternatives, and alternatives there aren't. We do get new story arcs, but they're neither in the right level range nor for the right thing. It's a lot like the good old times when people ran out of content at around level 38 and their only recourse was to either street hunt or endlessly repeat the Numia TF.

Given the rate at which Shard rates drop solo, I expect to be done with ALL the level 45-50 content just by the time I'm done with the Alpha slot, which begs the question... So what for the other nine? Task Forces? Re-grinding the same old arcs in Ouro? What?

Even if the developers are trying not to treat it like that, the Incarnate system is a level cap increase, but without content to its name. It's like if I1 brought us Peregrine Island and just one TF, but no missions. Or, to be more accurate, it's like if I2 brought is the Shadow Shard with no content save for four TFs. And yet somehow we all seem to agree that the Shadow Shard was mishandled, and that perhaps story arcs should be added to it. And it strikes ME as the perfect place to put Incarnate content with special Incarnate-only Soldiers of Rularuu enemies, especially considering the reflections we fight in the Ramiel arc are most likely Shadow Shard Reflections of some kind.

I'm not asking for Incarnate content to be more of the same entirely, but I do want at least part of it to be... Kind of like the other content, in that I can still play it without the need for constant help.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I feel the same way, including all the Incarnate content.

I am also not telling you to 'shape up or ship out'. What I am trying to do is be a realist about, you know, reality. Sometimes, things change. Sometimes, they change enough that you don't like them anymore. This is simple reality, Sam.

I see more people playing all parts of the game I play, on the same server you do I think, as I play exclusively on Pinnacle. There more TFs and regular teams than I have seen forming in quite some time.

The community is not changing. It's the same people, many of whom have been begging for the kind of content that has been added. These are the same ones that have been telling the complainers to take time to learn the new additions.

What has changed is that now parts of the game are harder. That's it. The PERCEPTION of forums goers such as yourself is the community is changing because many on the community are happy with things some hate. See, nothing has changed in the community, it's ALWAYS been this way.

As for the 'forum community' in general, I simply bring up the fact that it reflects a tiny minority of the players, as you well know. Personally, I would play the game MORE if the entire forum got shut-down. The forums are the only place I hear negative things about the game.

As an addendum, not wanting to listen to people complain may well be belittling opinions. However, I am not the one trying to force the developers in any particular direction other than where they want to go. If not wanting to hear incessant complaints about the game is belittling to the complainers, then I am HAPPY to belittle them. The complainers of whom I speak care not for my PoV, why on Earth should I care to do anything other than belittle theirs?

No, the community very much is changing. Granted, I'm probably not seeing as much of it as other people, but that kind of change is precisely why I don't. You know, whenever I bring up problems with a powerset or an AT and explain how it doesn't compare to others, there's always someone telling me "Well I don't care about these things. I just play to have fun." I want to play to have fun, but apparently "the same people" are all too eager to tell me that it's all different now and that I should be playing differently and that if I don't want to break out of my comfort zone I shouldn't be playing.

This was not always the case. In fact, once upon a time, before we had loot and raids and all of that, people tended to be a lot more lenient to... Everything, really. When there's no imperative to GO GO GO, then there's really no downside to anyone's particular playstyle. "You want to solo all the time. OK, I guess. It's boring, though." "You want to PUG all the time? Go ahead, but I don't like playing with strangers." "You only ever want to play Scrappers for some bizarre reason? Sure, if you can stand them."

I don't get that vibe any more. I haven't gotten that vibe for quite some time now, but at least before there was no real imperative to do content that "sorts the men from the boys," as it were. But now all we've done is we turned what was a largely cooperative game into a competitive game where people are driven to excel even when that shouldn't be strictly necessary. This changes the entire dynamic of the game and makes it friendly for an entirely different type of player.

I personally picked City of Heroes back in 2004 because it WASN'T like other MMOs, because it didn't have much of any "elite" content, because it didn't FORCE me to socialise, because there was such a thing as "good enough." Because it wasn't a serious, difficult game. With every step they take to make it more like all the others, the game changes and the community changes. Historically, they've left "outs" for those of us who still cling to the old ways. But with the Incarnate system, they seem to be trying to add a system that simply abolishes the old practices, all with the excuse that "Well, you don't have to participate in it."

I'll say one thing - I have never, ever seen so many people say "lrn2ply" to so many others, and I have not seen this kind of animosity between players since ED. And that's never a good thing.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I'll rescind my other posts and go with "pretty much this." Incarnate story arcs assuming Incarnate power and depicting the use of Incarnate power specifically is what would shut me up. I still don't believe that'll ever happen, I'd prefer to be proven wrong.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Projecting what? If you're saying that I'm imagining this shift in attitude, then you are free to believe what you will. I won't claim the attitude hasn't always been present, but the way it's been since I19 launched is worse. Far, far worse.

If you're saying that I'm somehow angry at the game and I want to claim people are at fault, you are just wrong. I'm not actually angry at the game. I tried the Incarnate stuff, I hate the TFs with a passion, I hate the need to team more than the pain of death, so I simply don't do them. I'm focusing on lower-level characters, just like I always have. The game doesn't bug me. It's PEOPLE that bug me because they ruin even what little I can enjoy of the new system for me by belittling my concerns and assuming to know what I think and how I feel.

And, yes, I remember you.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

That comes off as a bit creepy.

The game FORCES me to play with other people, so yes, the community is an important part. If I need information or want to discuss something, I come to the community, and it helps when I don't feel like every wrong word I say could get me chewed out, which is how it's felt here lately.

And then people start telling me about how I'm wrong to not want to team and socialise with other people and how I have the wrong game and how I'm wrong and all that, and OF COURSE I can't do this or that by myself because this is an MMO, and don't you know what M.M.O. stands for?

Believe me, if I could play by myself, I would, but then what business I have even attempting to participate in the Incarnate system, our long-awaited level cap raise?

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I remember a lot of people from the old days who aren't here any more. Most of the time, however, I don't remember I knew about them until their names come up. Seeing your name reminds me that I remember you, though I can't quite remember what for.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Ah.

I suppose that was a good example of me projecting onto your comment.

Heh.

I'm not willing to panic until I see how these other slots are unlocked.

If this does turn into Trials of Atlantis from DAOC, I'll grab a pitchfork and join you.

That's really my biggest fear. The Shard drop rate, as it is now, isn't TOO bad, if a bit punishing, but I can imagine how exponential the cost increase will be, and THAT scares me. Granted, we don't know if it will be, but that's the most likely outcome. After a certain point, we'll NEED some kind of Incarnate-specific content, both to use our powers on and to gain better Shard numbers out of, and if that's just raid after raid, I will be very upset. Not surprised, mind you, but upset.

And again - if I'm proven, I will gladly eat crow, make apologies and admit to my stupidity. I'd rather be stupid and wrong in this case, anyway. If they do indeed add a decent number of Incarnate story arcs, someone be sure to remind me to eat my hat. I mean it.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I will admit to being guilty of hubris, sure, but more often then not, Sam, giving advice usually leads to "but I can't do that" or "that is ridiculous." At which point my personality simply devolves into a rabid dog.

Especially with Johnny, who openly wants the game to fail.

It stands for 'Mister Magoo Online', the new online action/adventure/role-playing game from Squintsoft in which EVERYONE is Mister Magoo! Online! Buy the Standard Version or pay extra for the Elite Edition with a fancier box which includes a coupon for 10% off on MagooVision (tm) glasses, sold separately!

"Oh, Magoo, you've done it again!"

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Tin Mage ridiculousness debate, still in progress...

Or, one of the most flammable of responses, some variation on "I don't want to do that."