Samuel Tow hates Tin Mage and all he stands for
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-12-11 22:27 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Hmmmm. You know, that really seems to be random. Same AV's don't care if you have a toggle on them, some go nuts. I did have Snow Storm on him the entire time. The tanker claimed to be taunting him but they're notorious liars.
|
Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
When I ran TM with my Dark/Fire corr, I noticed he ran a lot when I had my debuff toggle on him. Once I decided not to use it at all he settled down.
|
Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
Victory Server: Join Victory Forum for team forming and general game chat and IRC Chat: irc.hashmark.net #victory for offline chatting.
Rock, rock on Hamster.
Quote:
That's well put, don't blame the game for your deaths. I don't understand how people are saying it's cheating, I mean seriously? Maybe a little challenging, if that. If you die because you're stuck in animations, well then don't que up attacks to avoid it. The first time I ran it, yes I got hit from getting stuck in an animation, but after that first time I adjusted and didn't get hit anymore. |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
I never felt that any of my deaths were forced, but rather that they were due to my own mistakes, and I'm thinking about ways to do it better next time.
|
Like I stated before, don't blame the game just because you're bad.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
Just a tiny little side note... if you have an attack que'd, and it hasn't yet hit animation, I believe you can hit esc. to un-que it.
.
Quote:
|
Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
I may be biased as I was a survivor of a 4 hour Tin Mage attempt on a PUG last week, but I find myself agreeing with Sam and Johnny. We certainly weren't an optimized team (one Empath, no tank, no buff/debuff to speak of) but it was brutal. I'm sure it was way more than 144 deaths (we wiped on Director 11 about six or seven times) and we couldn't get past Neuron in the (I hope) final mission.
Challenging content is a good thing, but I would hope that we get completely new enemies for this. Praetorians routinely get beat to a pulp in Tina's arc, and now they're godlike? War works seem like epic enemies and that makes sense, but Malta and Praetorians feel unnaturally powerful.
I would like to see Battalion show up. They were supposed to be an enemy group that was beyond powerful and you would need special enhancements (Alpha boosts, maybe?) to take on. Here's hoping we see them later on.
On a side note Sam did seem to enjoy the LGTF I ran on Saturday. 
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
I was the Inv/SS tank on Gale's team. It was the second time I'd run Apex and my first success; the first time was on a melee-heavy PUG... yeah, but at least it helped in that this time I knew what to expect so I could tell the others. We did finally down Battle Maiden (who is still a cheaty *****), after many deaths and a couple of regroups and new strategies and some serious frustration, IMO. It was definitely an accomplishment, but I'm not sure I'd call it fun per se.
Tin Mage was the one I hadn't done before, but someone else knew what to expect and filled us in (like, enter the warehouse together and rush to the terminals for the badge, pull Neuron first and get all his clones, then wait for Lolcat to cool down). After we got over the hump of Director 11, his carpet of mines, and his inexplicably uber minions, the rest went pretty smoothly; even the robots at Portal didn't give us much trouble. (Though as noted, we did have a Rad along.)
I'll run these task forces again if my friends want me to, but I'll probably grit my teeth at Apex and resign myself to at least a half hour of dodging unresistable death patches (and half the time dying anyway because my attack animation was too long or I dodged into someone else's patch), and I doubt I'll seek them out on my own. There are better, more enjoyable ways to spend my time and get shards.
With regard to Apex in particular: I feel like they changed the rules on us, but didn't (and can't) change the engine, so we're stuck with rooting attacks in an encounter that forces us to be constantly mobile. I spent almost the entire second battle as a taunt-bot with laser eyes, watching the rest of the team slowwwwly grind her down by pecking at her with quick-animating low-tier attacks, interrupted by hospital runs. And as one of my friends noted, don't even THINK of bringing a mastermind along.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
Quote:
the Z key will also dequeue an attack if you haven't binded some other function to the Z key.
|
Originally Posted by Impish Kat
Just a tiny little side note... if you have an attack que'd, and it hasn't yet hit animation, I believe you can hit esc. to un-que it.
. |
Quote:
That's cool.|
Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
the Z key will also dequeue an attack if you haven't binded some other function to the Z key.
|
I just find the "z" to be awkward to reach when my hand position on the keyboard is set higher. Esc is just easier for me.
.
Quote:
|
Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
Quote:
I dunno, that situation sounds pretty damn epic to me. A small group of heroes, outmatched and outgunned by forces from outside their world, standing up and saying "No, I will not run and hide. I'd rather die on my feet, and rail against these so-called 'unbeatable odds'." and then sneaking into the heart of their enemy's land to thwart any more threats that may be brewing, knowing full well that it might be a suicide mission.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Lets compare Battle Maiden with our characters.
When Battle Maiden arrives from Praetoria, she streaks down from low Earth orbit, smashing into Steel Canyon like a meteor causing massive destruction. She proceeds to dispatch all of the heroes and defense forces in the area, after all, Steel Canyon is only a level 20 zone at max. She does this solo for the most part (I consider her Warriors being part of her Lore Incarnate slot, pets if you will). It takes eight proto-Incarnates to bring her down, yet her attacks can and will devastate any of them. When we arrive in Praetoria, we crawl out of the sewer. We cause zero damage; Neuron's plaza remains pristine on the mission map as if we have no impact or signigance at all. We proceed to struggle against nameless nobody enemies who are automagically level 54, in Neutropolis, a level 20 max zone. With the help of seven allies, we only face two heroes, and their powers are superior to ours in every way. Compared to how we fared against BM's attacks, they laugh off ours. It takes one lazy catgirl to bring down any of us and the only reason we win is by it being 8 on 1 (or 4 on 1 depending) like cowards. Who comes across as more epic and powerful in these two examples? NOT US in my opinion. I don't feel more powerful. I don't feel like I'm "on the way to being seen as a peer to the NPCs." I feel like I've been reduced in power, because before I could at least stand up to any of them. Now I have to run away like an ant being chased by a magnifying glass, kite like a coward and fight legions of demonic spiders because of a sadistic GM. . |
That's epic to me.
Quote:
A team of 8 Scrappers have beaten both the Apex TF and TIn Mage TF, with no temp powers (both in under an hours time).|
Originally Posted by Silver Gale
So now that there's a new TF that people are telling me is too difficult and only specific ATs and powersets will be able to beat it, well, let's just say I'm not too worried.
Edit: For reference, here's the lineup on my team that completed Apex and Tin Mage on Saturday: Fire/Stone Tank Inv/SS Tank MA/SR Scrapper Traps/DP Defender Strom/Elec Defender Mind/FF Controller Ill/Rad Controller Warshade |
So whoevers saying it requires specific team makeup is being silly.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
DO Z and Esc do the same thing?|
Originally Posted by Impish Kat
That's cool.
I just find the "z" to be awkward to reach when my hand position on the keyboard is set higher. Esc is just easier for me. . |
The default Coh setup has these commands binded to those keys
ESC "unselect"
Z "powexec_abort"
Esc is going to deselect whatever mob you have targeted but whatever power is queued is just waiting for you to target a mob and be in range, and as soon as you target anther mob that power will fire.
Z removes the green ring from a power all together. So if a player has Hasten on auto and an attack Que'd up, Z will dequeue both powers.
Quote:
did you click all the glowies before the 30 second timer was up?
|
Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
I ran Tin Mage on my very IO'd dom with a good group of people last night. While the Director 11 fight did cause us to wipe a couple of times (had no idea what the cause of all those ambushes was) everything after that was gravy. Oh and that was with 7 people. We lost one on the first mission before we even finished the AV.
|
Quote:
I've been using esc. to "un-queue" powers... that is, if they have the dotted red line around them, it disappears. It may be a side effect from deselecting the mob, or it may be that it just happens to work when I don't have a mob selected... dunno. Hadn't really gotten that extensive with it. Just found it by happy accident, and have been using it to "un-queue" a power that I didn't really want to fire off (y'know when my fingers get too twitchy).|
Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
Esc is going to deselect whatever mob you have targeted but whatever power is queued is just waiting for you to target a mob and be in range, and as soon as you target anther mob that power will fire.
|
.
Quote:
|
Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
I'll give Esc a try, Z is nice but if you keep a power on Auto (like Praticed Brawler) you have to keep setting back to auto everytime you hit Z
Quote:
Then they seriously fail at being an ALPHA slot task forces. If they are to provide challenge to characters with MULTIPLE Incarnate Slots, then let's call a spade a spade: They are mid to high level Incarnate TFs, not Alpha TFs.|
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
Maybe they want Tin Man and Apex to provide some challenge even for characters level-shifted many times over. It's geared towards future Incarnates as well as the present ones.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Soon, you'll be level shifted +1 and it will only be a +3 punch!
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
These two TFs are intended for the Alpha slot. They should have been tailored to demonstrate how the Alpha has improved us. Instead, IMO it backslides me back to level 25. I'm fighting the same enemies as before, the same NPCs, but they're amped way up and we only get a minor improvement. How is that supposed to make you feel powerful? In fact, if you removed the artificial -8 debuff, having the Alpha would help you very little on these TFs. It surely wouldn't make the difference on its own.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
And don't say "wait for the rest of the Alpha". Even level shifted, the sword bombs are still going to slaughter anyone. I highly doubt the modest resistance and defense you'd get from the Very Rares are going to do much against Bobcat.
And don't say "wait for the other Incarnate slots after the Alpha". I know what four of other slots do. So far I am not impressed. Even with the Judgment, Interface and Destiny slots, I would be hard-pressed to call any player character a peer to these NPCs as they are now. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
They made us 5% better and made the enemies 300% better. There's nothing to suggest that the two curves will be any different moving forward.
|
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Quote:
Maybe they could make it harder for us then?
|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
As such it fails miserably on providing an appropriate challenge.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
You don't know much about us, do you? |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I've taken multiple direct hits from Lord Recluse, a demigod, when he was hooked up to a freaking god machine, but Boobcat's claws two shot me because she got upset?
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
You must be a natural blond.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Maybe they could make it harder for us then?
|
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Quote:
I am |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
You must be a natural blond.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Is it too difficult? All I can say is: we won. And we won with, for the most part, the lowest of four grades of boost in the first of ten slots in the Incarnate system. We didn't use our third build for optimal Incarnate builds, we didn't have any strategy formulated other than "fight" and "don't die", we brought whatever characters we wanted to, we didn't use Vent/Teamspeak, we didn't bring nukes or shivans or tier 3 insps or temp powers or base boosts and frequently forgot we had Call to Justice and Fortune and Secondary Mutation, and I personally died at least a dozen times due to my own sheer stupidity.
And still, we won. And I have had serious problems getting through an STF run and had to use a full nuke-shivan rush to beat the LRSF and struggled mightily through some bits of the LGTF and have taken a half hour or more to get through Nictus Romulus and sometimes have been completely defeated by all of the above. I'm not the best there is. I'm not even very good. All the Apex and Tin Mage TFs require is that you pay attention and work as a team and figure out a strategy and don't let your ego or your habits get in the way of doing what needs to be done to finish the mission. And this is the hardest they will ever be - they're only going to get easier.
I predict routine twenty minute Apex and Tin Mage runs in under a month. You can quote me on that. I also predict that some people will never be able to beat them, no matter how many uber Incarnate buffs they cram into their characters, and you can quote me on that too.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
QFT. Especially the bolded part.
|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Is it too difficult? All I can say is: we won. And we won with, for the most part, the lowest of four grades of boost in the first of ten slots in the Incarnate system. We didn't use our third build for optimal Incarnate builds, we didn't have any strategy formulated other than "fight" and "don't die", we brought whatever characters we wanted to, we didn't use Vent/Teamspeak, we didn't bring nukes or shivans or tier 3 insps or temp powers or base boosts and frequently forgot we had Call to Justice and Fortune and Secondary Mutation, and I personally died at least a dozen times due to my own sheer stupidity.
And still, we won. And I have had serious problems getting through an STF run and had to use a full nuke-shivan rush to beat the LRSF and struggled mightily through some bits of the LGTF and have taken a half hour or more to get through Nictus Romulus and sometimes have been completely defeated by all of the above. I'm not the best there is. I'm not even very good. All the Apex and Tin Mage TFs require is that you pay attention and work as a team and figure out a strategy and don't let your ego or your habits get in the way of doing what needs to be done to finish the mission. And this is the hardest they will ever be - they're only going to get easier. I predict routine twenty minute Apex and Tin Mage runs in under a month. You can quote me on that. I also predict that some people will never be able to beat them, no matter how many uber Incarnate buffs they cram into their characters, and you can quote me on that too. |
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
Quote:
You've been whining about this TF since Beta and the arguments were no more convincing then. You want the game to be a walk through. There's plenty of content to that effect. Just because something is actually hard doesn't make it bad. It also doesn't give you lease to resort to ad hominems. |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
You must be a natural blond.
|
These TFs are fun, and very doable if people care to figure out how to do them.
If your idea of feeling more powerful is being able to walk all over the opposition, go wipe swarms of grays in Perez.
Some people have a different notion of powerful. It's tied to being able to actually accomplish something hard.
Too many alts to list.
The raging and whining and weeping will die down, just like it did for the "Impossible" ITF
Then it can start up all over again for the BAF raid
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
I believe there is an axiom, particularly well suited to the branches of the military: [horribly paraphrased]|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Lets compare Battle Maiden with our characters.
When Battle Maiden arrives from Praetoria, she streaks down from low Earth orbit, smashing into Steel Canyon like a meteor causing massive destruction. She proceeds to dispatch all of the heroes and defense forces in the area, after all, Steel Canyon is only a level 20 zone at max. She does this solo for the most part (I consider her Warriors being part of her Lore Incarnate slot, pets if you will). It takes eight proto-Incarnates to bring her down, yet her attacks can and will devastate any of them. When we arrive in Praetoria, we crawl out of the sewer. We cause zero damage; Neuron's plaza remains pristine on the mission map as if we have no impact or signigance at all. We proceed to struggle against nameless nobody enemies who are automagically level 54, in Neutropolis, a level 20 max zone. With the help of seven allies, we only face two heroes, and their powers are superior to ours in every way. Compared to how we fared against BM's attacks, they laugh off ours. It takes one lazy catgirl to bring down any of us and the only reason we win is by it being 8 on 1 (or 4 on 1 depending) like cowards. Who comes across as more epic and powerful in these two examples? NOT US in my opinion. I don't feel more powerful. I don't feel like I'm "on the way to being seen as a peer to the NPCs." I feel like I've been reduced in power, because before I could at least stand up to any of them. Now I have to run away like an ant being chased by a magnifying glass, kite like a coward and fight legions of demonic spiders because of a sadistic GM. . |
"You've got to tear someone down so you can build them up."
Perhaps this is an example of this. Maybe you don't want to experience this type of thing... Must I finish this thought?
In any case, I've enjoyed both of these TFs a lot. And I intend to make them a mainstay of my TFing experience. I really had a great number of adrenaline rushes during the 2nd (??) mission of the Apex TF - those who have done it probably know what I'm referring to - more than nearly any content in the game to date, certainly in recent memory. I have less recall of Tin Mage, but I've only run it once, and it was a few days ago. I never found myself bored, or frustrated - esp since I haven't done it 54,237 times.
Since many people like it, and some don't, I'm going to chalk this up to You Like what You Like, I Like what I Like, and You and I are different.
And reiterating what someone else said, if it's too hard, there's plenty of easier content to be had.
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs