Samuel Tow hates Tin Mage and all he stands for

Malta is just that good, they're power-players on equal levels with everyone else. They're just tech-based.

Also, Cole is sapping your powers.

Maybe they want Tin Man and Apex to provide some challenge even for characters level-shifted many times over. It's geared towards future Incarnates as well as the present ones. I do agree on one thing though: Praetorians aren't that tough. Malta isn't that tough. Those things makes no sense. But I'll roll with it. I enjoyed playing both TFs even though we didn't even complete them. One time some complete morons quit on us as we were about to fight Meuron/Boobcat and the other we just couldn't damage Battle Maiden fast enough. I still thought the new challenges were fun - not the purple enemies but the tactical stuff. I think it's ridiculous to try to make us believe that the completely incompetent idiots that populate Praetoria are able to build war-machines of such power, in those numbers, however. I'm just going to imagine that they come from another Praetoria where the Praetors aren't all bumbling buffoons.

I don't claim to know the how (story line wise) of it, but Malta's entire schtick is taking out supers. So the why (again story line wise) of even their minions being total badasses in that TF makes perfect sense. All the supers they're facing are getting more powerful, so they've gotta keep up. Sure they could have explained the how of that better in the TF, if they even tried, but overall I'm ok with it.

I did quip after the Director 11 fight. "He just fought 8 proto Incarnates, by himself, to a near draw for like 15-20 mins...and *we're* the threat to the world?"

Hmn, this bodes well...pft.
+4 on the teams of peeps I know should be doable. Hell, Alpha has enough defence to negate a chunk of that. But I agree just from reading the description that it sounds 'Not good'.

@Furio

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Sam, it actually sounds to me like you ran the TF with the level debuff. You have to have an enhancement slotted in your alpha slot to avoid it, not just have it unlocked.

The numbers you're posting really making it sound like this is the case. Is this the case? If so, you were fighting at -8, not -4.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one, Sam.

Some background: Our SG is made up of RPing alt-itis sufferers, some of whom are powergamers. We regularly mow through missions set at +2 or +3 not because we only do one thing that works best, but because every player knows how to play the game and every character has been fine-tuned for optimal performance within their RP concept.

I quite enjoyed both the Apex and Tin Mage TFs. The battles took longer than usual. The +4 enemies weren't melting in front of us like spawns usually do. The new boss fights required us to push our skills to the maximum and further, learning completely new tactics on the fly. We died a lot more than we're used to. In the Battle Maiden fight, we had several complete wipes, which hadn't happened in a long time.

And it worked. On an OOC level, it felt like a new thing, a new challenge. We all came together to overcome it, and it really gave me the warm fuzzies to once again be reminded that I could always count on my SGmates. We brought our A-game, we didn't let failure get us down, and we overcame it.

On an IC level, it was like one of those "massive world-shattering events" that the comics have whenever sales slip or they reach a milestone issue or there's a new executive director who decides to shake things up. The enemies were tougher, the stakes were higher, and it really felt like our small band of heroes was the last best hope for Primal Earth. Sure, the actual mechanics used to accomplish the toughness weren't that sophisticated, but the effect was to increase the dramatic tension.

Yeah, so it didn't make much internal sense to have the same enemies give us more trouble, but that's a limitation of the medium. They couldn't exactly justify the expense of making entirely new models for the tougher Malta units that only appear in one mission of one TF. Maybe they're super-elite units that they've been holding in reserve, maybe they have bullets especially developed to hurt your character, you can handwave it however you want. On a story level, they need to be more powerful, your characters *need* to be struggling with them, because anything less would be anti-climatic. On a gameplay level, this is supposed to be content that challenges the best of players, which by necessity will leave the not-as-good of players in the dust.

You could argue whether or not such content is necessary. For my part, I think challenging the best players is a goal worth striving for, and these two new TFs fulfill that goal admirably.

From today:

Did the Tin Mage TF for the first time about 2 days ago. It was a pick up group and was doing well and what I felt was a good pace. Then we got to Neuron, Bobcat, and the 2 Goliath War Walker , and that's were everything started to fall apart.

With Neuron he seems to spam an ungodly amount of clones. I think I counted up to 18 or more of those [censored]. I feel we got passed that hurdle thanks to the 2 doms, and the controller who held, confused, immobilized, slowed the clones. While the tank, scrapper, brute wailed on Neuron.

After that Bobcat was a chore mostly because our brute wanted to swap from a dmg alpha slot to an acc alpha slot, but unfortunately none of us knew at that time you can't swap alpha slots during missions. So unfortunately at that point he was going alphaless with the rest of the mission.

The Goliath War Walkers were the most annoying to deal with. Should you really have to spend over an hour to bring one of these suckers down? The one we had to deal with outside Portal Corps went down fast. Thought it would be the same with these 2. Unfortunately our team was wrong. Fortunately one dom and a scrapper had 2 chemical warhead temp powers so that seemed to make the final Goliath War Walker go down faster.

I'm hoping that this TF was purposely set high so that way later down the road the devs can adjust things accordingly. As some mentioned only parts of the Alpha Slot tree have been unlocked and there are more to come. That's what I'm hoping for anyways.

I can see where devs are coming from on the design of this TF. They seem to want a balance were it would be a grueling laborous task to beat this TF without being alpha slotted. , but becomes managable with an alpha slotted team. However I get this feeling that something didn't transition over when they tried to implement this idea.

Unknown:
Honestly? I found the Goliathes to be far easier then Neuron or Bobcat.

Also, iirc, if you don't attack anyone for two minutes you can reslot the alpha inside a mission. Or is it four?

__________________
Currently listening to Pink Floyd's a Momentary Lapse of Reason

Mockery: "Oh Master, I love you, but I hate all you stand for! But I think we should press our slimey mucus covered lips together in the cargo hold!"

Conclusion: "Such pheromone-driven responses never cease to decrease the charge in my capacitors and make me wish I could put a blaster pistol to my behavior core and pull the trigger."

...wait, does Tin Mage even have lips?

Sam you and I have very different play styles and always have. That said I can understand your frustration I did the Tin Man Tf several time on test before it went live and just recently did it on the live server with my badger. It is tougher than a normal TF but that is by design as many others have mentioned.. You are trying to improve yourself and eventually become an incarnate like Statesman. Frankly I didn't keep a real close watch but I was on a good team and if I recall correctly we had only 10 defeats during the TF and the only badge we didn't collect was for not setting off any proximity mines in mission one .. I know some teams have managed this but GOOD LUCK trying. As for the 54 level villains we really didnt have a bad time against them. Its the reason they STRONGLY suggest you have you new Alpha slot SLOTTED before attempting. It no only eliminated that -4 debuff so at least your a 50 level battling 54 instead of a 50 with the abilites of a 46 level trying to do the same thing but it also adds to your effectiveness so you can cope with a 54 level minion. Now I admit the team I was on had an outstanding mix for a PUG and included 3 VEATS upping everyone's defenses and quite a few of us had the uncommon slotted so we had not one but two bonuses going for us. I was on with my Crab Spider and not only was my END reducered by 33% on all applicable powers but my defense was increased by 20%. I died once on that TF and that was because I got a little TOO confident and got myself killed.

Honestly I'd do 20 Tin Man TFs before doing an Apex. I enjoy the first mission of the Apex TF but when we switch gears and find ourselves fighting Battle Maiden and her "Clouds of Instant Death", Crossbow that can one shot a Tank, and flying sword that attack at random I quickly grew to hate this thing. To date I have been on one successful one and that was on test.. even then when it was all over we had recorded more than 100 defeats and I spent more time running back to the hospital and refilling my inspiration trays that actually battling anything inside the mission. To me mission two of Apex is not about strategy or a test of strength .. its about seeing who can dodge around fast enough and long enough to survive. The worst part is I have seen some comments in global chat from people saying they enjoyed it and that it reminded them of the quests they'd run on WOW. Funny I remember the days when the player base here used to make fun of anyone that played WOW.. not longed to have more content that reminded them of that MMO. Oh and on test I did remark during one of many attempts at APEX that the flying swords made me feel like some Dev out there had way too big a crush on the whole Harry Potter stuff. Magical flying swords that defend their Mistress? Give me a break... and after we defeat them do we catch the train to Hogworts before facing off with Battle Maiden and Voldamere or do we step through a magical portal? They came up with 8 new villain groups in Praetoria when Issue 18 hit and flying swords and random clouds of instant death were the BEST idea they could come up with to assist BM after we spent the entire mission before that battling Clockwork, Warwalkers along with Rikti and Hydra.

I will probably keep trying Apex until I get a successful one on my badger but for the rest of my potential incarnates I have no desire to spend an hour or two seeing how close i can get to my next debt badge and just how much INF I can waste refilling my inspiration tray.

Now to switch gears and recommend something to you. It sounds like you did a Hami Raid years ago under the old system ... I do them from time to time, even before they started dropping shards, and things have changed drastically. I don't think I have ever seen a Hami raid take more than an hour and normally they fill up so fast people are disappointed when they can't get into the Hive or Abyss because its full. Now the leaders do have it down to a system so you will get directions on how and when to do things.. then again we are basically talking a 50 man team so that's to be expected. Pssst to be honest I like the ones in the Abyss better and usually sneak my Vigilantes over there for them.

Not sure what I 20 will hold but I'd expect more of the same. They do hint at some higher level Praetorian content so maybe that will include some 50 level arcs that are solo friendly.

the downtime to swap out alpha boosts is 5 min

from the times ive done tin mage and apex tfs, i think apex is way more fun and balanced than tin mage

apex tf is actually fairly fun, challenging but not too challenging, not too much of a grindfest, ect

tin mage on the other hand was like 10x more of a PITA in my opinion and i like challenging tfs, but tin mage was just annoying not fun

the 2nd and 3rd mishs werent too bad, the final battle was pretty epic, but i do agree than bobcat being that overpowered is not exactly enjoyable, i watched a brute get 3 shotted through unstoppable fighting her. the first mish wasnt too bad until we got to director 11, hes not too hard of an AV to fight, but he is insanely annoying because he just runs around like a chicken with his head cut off even when taunted, and i also agree that lvl 54 malta are prolly 10x more annoying than lvl 54 war works. i actually feel that most of the praetorian groups are overall weaker than most enemy groups