Too much Alpha?
By
AnElfCalledMack,
Posted on: 2010-12-02 14:47 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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AVs with massive To Hit bonuses, supported by waves of auto-hit patch attacks with massive unresistable DoTs.|
Originally Posted by Bittovan_Odduck
What kind of challenges can they present to players who can already solo virtually anything in the game
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For starters...
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Well, firstly, as an Invulnerability tanker, my primary powers are all defense and resistance, so it doesn't add 30-50% to any of those. 20% at best, but since I'm at around 54% on all those powers already, about 6% with the uncommon and 13% with the Ultra-rare.|
Originally Posted by Bittovan_Odduck
What kind of challenges can they present to players who can already solo virtually anything in the game, who then get 30-50% more powerful (roughly)?
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Secondly, you probably didn't read about the Task Forces that require the alpha-slot. They're making brand-new challenges for Incarnates.
Are you sure you understand how the Alpha slot will work OP? They will be affected by ED, even the very rare ones. They are NOT global bonuses.
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Does anything anyone do in their mission affect the game at all ? Most of the important stuff takes part in instances, and out of the two occasions where it doesn't, the encounter (Hamidon) negates most of the strengthes you'll see in a typical super solo build. | It only takes a small proportion of min/maxed characters to distort a game out of shape though. |
I agree with you in thinking Incarnate slots seem seriously overpowered, just the Alpha one alone with a mere common boost is... Wow.
But I like it. The boost is more noticeable on a SO/common IO build than a fully decked out IO build, so it'll smooth the gap between the haves and the havenots.
Just as well, it's a game about heroes - it's an *old* game about heroes. Giving us a gradual increase in power is a great way to keep some of us interested in playing the game.
As for challenges, there really isn't much that is challenging in this game even if you don't min/max - use your inspirations as they drop, work as a team and you can pretty much succeed at anything.
At the same time, there's plenty of ways for devs to make harder content, so I wouldn't worry about that.
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Indeed, the biggest misunderstanding of Incarnate boost. They're more or less a Global Enhancement, not a flat bonus.
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Originally Posted by Mjolnir875
Are you sure you understand how the Alpha slot will work OP? They will be affected by ED, even the very rare ones. They are NOT global bonuses.
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That's what I was going to say. They will be useful for Enhancements that you don't have already maxed out, like Accuracy or End Cost, but not so much Damage. They DO "resist" the ED cap a little bit, but only so you'll get like 110% instead of 100%. (Note that I do not have the real numbers. So that was just an example. |
Originally Posted by Mjolnir875
Are you sure you understand how the Alpha slot will work OP? They will be affected by ED, even the very rare ones. They are NOT global bonuses.
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I would expect it to be more than 5% and less than 33%, though)
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Assuming already ED-capped, Schedule A (Acc, Damage, etc)|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
That's what I was going to say. They will be useful for Enhancements that you don't have already maxed out, like Accuracy or End Cost, but not so much Damage. They DO "resist" the ED cap a little bit, but only so you'll get like 110% instead of 100%. (Note that I do not have the real numbers. So that was just an example.
I would expect it to be more than 5% and less than 33%, though) |
Common: ~9.6%
Uncommon: ~14.3%
Rare: ~19.0%
Very Rare: ~23.6%
15% of the ED-affected portion plus 100% of the ED-resistant
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From Paragonwiki:|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
I would expect it to be more than 5% and less than 33%, though)
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| Part of the bonuses given by Incarnate System slotted boosts will bypass Enhancement Diversification, even if a character's power is slotted to the final threshold. Depending on rarity, boosts will bypass ED with anywhere from one-sixth to two-thirds of the boost. |
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
Incarnate system is well thought out based on the lessons of the past. Only concern moving forward is making content that can challenge players with multiple slots.
I was a little hesitant about Incarnate stuff until I understood how it worked in game. I can honestly say it is extremely well thought out, balanced, and NOT overpowered. To be perfectly honest- with all of the hoopla, I expected more of my character when I gave her the first Spiritual Boost.
I think the Incarnate content is the best way to advance our end level content without totally destroying everything that has existed before. I am glad there is no level raise. I am also glad that becoming an Incarnate costs nothing besides time. So there should be no complaints of people saying that they are being held back from becoming an Incarnate because they don't have the cash. Get off your bum, do the content, grab a SF or three, and become an Incarnate.
To the OP- you really have to try the new content before you say that Incarnates are OP. I was on a good team with strong buffs, damage and balance, and we were ground into paste several times before completion. I am glad that there is new content that is actually challenging. Some things had become stale, but i19 has really brought another dimension to gameplay.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
Further, future slots are going to give us powers, rather than more "global IOs". It's not unbalanced and the devs are taking their time implementing it.
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Link on giving powers and not more bonuses please.
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Originally Posted by Starcloud
Further, future slots are going to give us powers, rather than more "global IOs". It's not unbalanced and the devs are taking their time implementing it.
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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We know that the Justice slot is intended to give players an AoE power of some sort, from the Incarnate web page if nothing else.|
Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS
Link on giving powers and not more bonuses please.
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I don't know how (or even if) we know for sure about the other slots. That seems like speculation to me, but hey, if there's a dev quote somewhere I'd be pleased to read it. I sure hope that we're not gonna get nine more powers, though.
My trays are full-up as it is.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Does anything anyone do in their mission affect the game at all ? Most of the important stuff takes part in instances, and out of the two occasions where it doesn't, the encounter (Hamidon) negates most of the strengthes you'll see in a typical super solo build.
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Your missunderstanding what your quoting...
What they are saying is that if the Devs datamine specific things their results will get squiffed by min/maxers. For example they datamine TF/Arc times to determine merits rewards.
If 1000 teams complete a specific TF 4 hours. but 100 teams complete it in 15 minutes.
Then the results arnt too squiffed, average runtime is about 3.65 hours. But if those 100 teams each decide to farm the TF 10 times because its soo easy. then your average runtime for that TF drops considerably. to 2 hours.
Now all they have to do is heavily farm that TF at a rate of 15 minutes a go more readily than casual players who know it will take them 4 hours to run it will do it in. And you've got a steadily decreasing time in the TF.
Look at the Crystal Titan (Eden) TF. 4 hours time limit and then it fails, do the Devs count failed attempts in their calculations? possible when it is timed, but also likely not. Why? well the whole TF gives a lousy 7 reward merits.
Why because you can do it in under 25 minutes with a half decent team that knows what they are doing.
This can and will also be applied to how tough enemies should be. if a large enough (while still being minority) proportion of the playerbase trivialise enemies (softcap at 45% on squishies, perma PA etc etc) then you will find more enemies with defence debuffs, or massive tohit. Or recharge Debuffs, or taunt resistance.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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The math is a little trickier than that, and this is what keeps the Alpha slot from being overpowered. First, the power increase is to the base values of the powers, and second, only a fraction of the increase bypasses Enhancement Diversification.|
Originally Posted by Bittovan_Odduck
It seems to me the Incarnate slots are overpowered.
Digressions aside, slots that add 30-50% to ALL of a characters main powers just seem over the top to me. We already have heroes/villains who can solo AV's and GM's, though I don't suggest that is a large proportion of the playerbase. It only takes a small proportion of min/maxed characters to distort a game out of shape though. What kind of challenges can they present to players who can already solo virtually anything in the game, who then get 30-50% more powerful (roughly)? |
Consider a character with an attack that does 100 points of base damage, is slotted to the ED cap (95% enhancement), and adds a Musculature Core Paragon Alpha enhancement. Before the alpha slot, the attack would do 195 points of damage; after, it would do an additional (100 * 0.45 * 0.66 (non-ED enhancement)) + (100 * 0.45 * 0.33 * 0.15 (ED enhancement)) = 32 points of damage, for a net increase of 16%. Since the Alpha slot applies to to all powers, someone with a maxed-out attack chain would do about 16% higher DPS -- still not enough for a scrapper to solo a Giant Monster.
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Katie, I crunched the numbers above. A Musculature Boost (the common version) is about a 9.5% damage buff - slightly worse than Scrapper Assault. A Core/Radial Musculature Boost (uncommon) is a 14% buff, while the Very Rare damage boost is 24% - a permanent small red inspiration. Substantial, but not game-breaking by any standard.
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Originally Posted by Katie V
The math is a little trickier than that, and this is what keeps the Alpha slot from being overpowered. First, the power increase is to the base values of the powers, and second, only a fraction of the increase bypasses Enhancement Diversification.
Consider a character with an attack that does 100 points of base damage, is slotted to the ED cap (95% enhancement), and adds a Musculature Core Paragon Alpha enhancement. Before the alpha slot, the attack would do 195 points of damage; after, it would do an additional (100 * 0.45 * 0.66 (non-ED enhancement)) + (100 * 0.45 * 0.33 * 0.15 (ED enhancement)) = 32 points of damage, for a net increase of 16%. Since the Alpha slot applies to to all powers, someone with a maxed-out attack chain would do about 16% higher DPS -- still not enough for a scrapper to solo a Giant Monster. |
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It's only 30-50% to something that's not already suffering from ED issues. And only type of enhancement at a time. It will make the people that solo GMs and AVs more powerful, BUT it will make some of the "middle-weight" players with standard IOs, but no sets into "heavy-weights", and make "lightweights" with nothing but SOs into "middle-weights".|
Originally Posted by Bittovan_Odduck
It seems to me the Incarnate slots are overpowered.
(Yes, I know, poopstorms of bad karma will fall on me for that, but I have here my sturdy bumbershoot and a bottle of Febreeze so I HAVE NO FEAR!) Digressions aside, slots that add 30-50% to ALL of a characters main powers just seem over the top to me. We already have heroes/villains who can solo AV's and GM's, though I don't suggest that is a large proportion of the playerbase. It only takes a small proportion of min/maxed characters to distort a game out of shape though. What kind of challenges can they present to players who can already solo virtually anything in the game, who then get 30-50% more powerful (roughly)? If this has already been done to death elsewhere, just point me in the right direction and I'll go away. Quietly. I promise. |
OLDER content will get easier, and CURRENT content will be playable with these enhancements (or at least sorta playable).
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Yes.. nobody is doing 30% more damage then before, or surviving 30% more incoming damage, or finishing missions 30% faster. The relative shifts from a fully decked out build with I19 is more like 1-3% in overall effectivness. There's a reason they have to debuff the non-incarnates for the new TFs. If they didn't people would be able to run them as non-incarnates just as easily as the incarnates do.|
Originally Posted by Warsuit X-5
It's only 30-50% to something that's not already suffering from ED issues. And only type of enhancement at a time. It will make the people that solo GMs and AVs more powerful, BUT it will make some of the "middle-weight" players with standard IOs, but no sets into "heavy-weights", and make "lightweights" with nothing but SOs into "middle-weights".
OLDER content will get easier, and CURRENT content will be playable with these enhancements (or at least sorta playable). |
The OP is absolutely correct that there is danger in giving endgame buffs that are too large. However, I don't see that happening here. I see larger benifits from making fitness inherent then I see from the alpha slot in most cases.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
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The Judgement slot, actually, and if you type [Ion Radial Final Judgement] or [Ion Core Final Judgement] in-game you can take a look at two top-tier ones for yourself!
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Originally Posted by Obitus
We know that the Justice slot is intended to give players an AoE power of some sort, from the Incarnate web page if nothing else.
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~union4lyfe~
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There was a leak in Beta - we saw a screenshot of some other slots.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
We know that the Justice slot is intended to give players an AoE power of some sort, from the Incarnate web page if nothing else.
I don't know how (or even if) we know for sure about the other slots. That seems like speculation to me, but hey, if there's a dev quote somewhere I'd be pleased to read it. I sure hope that we're not gonna get nine more powers, though. My trays are full-up as it is. |
I don't recall most of the data, but I know one was a pet - I think the ultra rare gave you a boss and a Lt.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
AVs with massive To Hit bonuses, supported by waves of auto-hit patch attacks with massive unresistable DoTs.
For starters... |
I hate Battle Madien.... Enough said
I am plesantly enjoying Alpha and Im not even a nut case about it.
Its just enough to add to characters filling in gaps and holes without going over board.
Main: Praetor Imperium Elec/SS/Mu
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I'd say you're misunderstanding the whole way the game works, among other things.| Your missunderstanding what your quoting... |
IOs play a minimal part in optimized teams. Team composition and buffs/debuffs have more to do (a lot more) with optimal TF runs than anything else. Slotting an Very Rare Alpha Slot will not let you use a -500% perma regen debuff on a melee character. For that matter, I'd say buying a SSD (extremely fast loading times) would probably yield you better returns than buying a fully IOed out build with an Alpha slot, in terms of team/TF speed.
Sub-10 minute Eden runs were already done for fun and giggles before IOs even existed. Again, any random dude soloing AVs in his own mission has no meaningful impact on the game as a whole.
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Don't forget there are rare and very rare levels that give +45% base. For very rare that means 32% boost even after ED.
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Originally Posted by AnElfCalledMack
Assuming already ED-capped, Schedule A (Acc, Damage, etc)
Common: ~9.6% Uncommon: ~14.3% Rare: ~19.0% Very Rare: ~23.6% 15% of the ED-affected portion plus 100% of the ED-resistant |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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The speed people run story arcs and taskforces effect 'my' game in terms of the amount of merits rewarded by (average? mean?) time.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Does anything anyone do in their mission affect the game at all ? Most of the important stuff takes part in instances, and out of the two occasions where it doesn't, the encounter (Hamidon) negates most of the strengthes you'll see in a typical super solo build.
(snip). |
I'm not complaining about the alpha slot, or characters the are IO'd, but the speed that people run missions does impact on everyone.
I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
Okay, so I have no one with an Alpha Slot. I didn't beta. I only have a couple of 50's, even.
So I'm damn near as qualified to discuss this as anyone you see on TV discussing anything...
Having taken a look at the Alpha descrip page, and the powers of the Alpha slots, and thinking hmmm, more Incarnate slots to come, and then thinking back on some of the lessons learned from years in various types of gamecrafting...
It seems to me the Incarnate slots are overpowered.
(Yes, I know, poopstorms of bad karma will fall on me for that, but I have here my sturdy bumbershoot and a bottle of Febreeze so I HAVE NO FEAR!)
Digressions aside, slots that add 30-50% to ALL of a characters main powers just seem over the top to me. We already have heroes/villains who can solo AV's and GM's, though I don't suggest that is a large proportion of the playerbase. It only takes a small proportion of min/maxed characters to distort a game out of shape though.
What kind of challenges can they present to players who can already solo virtually anything in the game, who then get 30-50% more powerful (roughly)?
If this has already been done to death elsewhere, just point me in the right direction and I'll go away. Quietly.
I promise.
Too many alts to list
Every server but Pinnacle
Black Belt in Altoholism, Master of Indeterminancy
(although how it got in nancy I've no idea...)