Respeccing Fitnessless for Fitnessful


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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Glad we could amuse you.
are you a multiple?
cause you're the only one running that game in this thread.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

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Originally Posted by Twisted Toon View Post
I jump too far, for one thing.

To be honest, Health and Stamina are less obvious boosts to performance.
Swift and Hurdle, on the other hand, throw off my movement.
Not so much as Speed Boost, but it's still intrusive.

Not enough to make me quite, mind you. But, it does irritate a little.
No amount of Gold Bond Medicated Powder helps either.
That actually is a valid point, and about the only one I'll honour, for a few reasons. Generally, I don't agree with "I run too fast" arguments, but when you consider that Swift really is a significant buff AND it will stack with, say, Quickness on characters that have that, this has the potential to create some... Interesting situations. I'm not sure how much I can see "I jump too high," but there is that, too.

Personally, if things pan out as I believe they'll pan out, I'll be using Sprint a LOT less. Right now, while I don't leave Sprint on in combat, I have a convenient bind with which I turn Sprint off for short bursts of half a second as I move between enemies to save time. Really not enough for more than a couple of ticks. If my basic run speed weren't so apparently slow, then maybe I wouldn't feel the need to do so.

Basically speaking, I understand the concerns with running too fast and jumping too high, but I believe Sprint, or rather not using Sprint, will solve most of those, in the context of meta-game gameplay. In the context of character concepts... I'll have to respectfully disagree with their implications. Yes, with Swift and Hurdle our characters will do things normal humans simply couldn't, but to me this is nothing more than creative license for the sake of making the game not frustrating to play. If our characters were limited to human-level jump height and run speed outside of travel powers, then the game would be a lot more boring.

Faster run I interpret as being necessary so that people don't lose patience running down a long empty hallway, and higher jump I interpret as the next best thing to grabbing ledges and pulling yourself up in a game which doesn't support that.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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I suspect that part of the Inherent Fitness reason is actually to get Swift and Hurdle onto low level characters. Praetorians, to be exact. Remember we got a boost in travel speed with GR because of the huge-ish 1-20 zones in Praetoria? This might just have been the tipping point that turned Inherent Fitness from "Maybe later." to "Let's do it."


Aegis Rose, Forcefield/Energy Defender - Freedom
"Bubble up for safety!"

 

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Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
are you a multiple?
cause you're the only one running that game in this thread.
I was speaking on behalf of the j-holes past, present and future. I'm not typing too fast for you to keep up, am I? >_>

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
It takes more than one or two posts to come to that conclusion, Leo, and I've done what I can to get along with you in the past, with varying results. What I'm saying is that the way you present yourself and the way you treat other people builds up in people's memory. City of Heroes in general and the forums in particular constitute a community that is built on retention more than anything else, and people remember.

Just as a simple, non-loaded example, Friggin Tazer and Miss Kitty didn't earn their reputation in a day. They earned their reputation over the span of years. You are not a low-key poster. People remember you. Whether you choose to take responsibility for what people remember you for or not is up to you.
I honestly doubt moderately abrasive posts every now and then will make that big a difference. So long as I don't pull an Umbral and sound completely condescending (and don't say I am. I haven't gone through everyone's posts and said how 'wrong' they are yet) or resort to name calling (how about slapping B_I on the wrist for putting down that 'bratty' comment?), I'll at least be tolerable...which is all I ask for.



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I take responsibility for the tangent, as I should have learned by now that no tangent is "off-topic" enough to be sure the thread won't become about it if someone turns it into a pet peeve. Today, you get to be that someone.
I'm always in that position. Notice that I don't pick posts apart and comment on every little segment even though I have a lot to say. It was hard once, now I can do it with some consistency. So I try to bump curious/interesting threads and say my piece but at the same time, try not to *keep* pushing it further onto another tangent...I guess this whole 'behavior on the forums' is another tangent, but I at least wanted to point that out and hopefully drop it.


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2) I already have better endurance management and tactics. I'm starting to get the feeling you're simply skimming my posts.
Just to reiterate, I'm not skimming, I'm consiously shortening my responses so the thread doesn't hurtle into off-topic zone. If your management and tactics are up to snuff, then what was with the hyperbolized statement in your first post? As if you'd die without stamina over running like a coward? And I'd hardly paint non-fitness builds as either obsolete, gimped, cowards or dead, which is all I get from reading many of the posts so far.

This isn't about the haves and have-nots, just making a general point. That people latch onto the 'l2ply' phrase and completely forget anything else in the post is probably more a point. Not that that is important, but have at it. I'm not going to drill all the hyperbole posted so far as I'd be here all night...


 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
I was speaking on behalf of the j-holes past, present and future.
How unfortunate for them they couldn't get a better spokesman.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
That actually is a valid point, and about the only one I'll honour, for a few reasons. Generally, I don't agree with "I run too fast" arguments, but when you consider that Swift really is a significant buff AND it will stack with, say, Quickness on characters that have that, this has the potential to create some... Interesting situations. I'm not sure how much I can see "I jump too high," but there is that, too.

Personally, if things pan out as I believe they'll pan out, I'll be using Sprint a LOT less. Right now, while I don't leave Sprint on in combat, I have a convenient bind with which I turn Sprint off for short bursts of half a second as I move between enemies to save time. Really not enough for more than a couple of ticks. If my basic run speed weren't so apparently slow, then maybe I wouldn't feel the need to do so.

Basically speaking, I understand the concerns with running too fast and jumping too high, but I believe Sprint, or rather not using Sprint, will solve most of those, in the context of meta-game gameplay. In the context of character concepts... I'll have to respectfully disagree with their implications. Yes, with Swift and Hurdle our characters will do things normal humans simply couldn't, but to me this is nothing more than creative license for the sake of making the game not frustrating to play. If our characters were limited to human-level jump height and run speed outside of travel powers, then the game would be a lot more boring.

Faster run I interpret as being necessary so that people don't lose patience running down a long empty hallway, and higher jump I interpret as the next best thing to grabbing ledges and pulling yourself up in a game which doesn't support that.
Hurdle adds more distance than height to jumps. That can cause some problems when trying to jump on a narrow ledge or wall.

Besides, if I have a travel power (which I tend to pick up at level 6), I'll use that instead of sprint to proceed down long hallways. Or, I'll just Ninja run. I hardly use Sprint any more.

The point is, though, not everyone is concerned with the speed at which they complete missions (or travel) as others. Some people are also more concerned with character concepts than others. Which include some characters not having Ultra-Olympic athlete levels of fitness. Even the current abilities of characters will beat most, if not all, Olympic Athletes in any field.

Again, none of this is game breaking for me. Just minor irritants. I still enjoy beating the baddies senseless.


There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"

 

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Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
How unfortunate for them they couldn't get a better spokesman.
I'm most likely the best they're gonna get. We're j-holes, afterall.


 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
I'm most likely the best they're gonna get. We're j-holes, afterall.
What is a J-hole?

Are you obsessed with Japanese culture or something?


 

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Originally Posted by LISAR View Post
What is a J-hole?
I honestly don't know >_>

But how is it suppose to be 'someone obsessed with Japanese culture'? Holes aren't known for their obsessive nature, I surmise.


 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
I honestly don't know >_>

But how is it suppose to be 'someone obsessed with Japanese culture'? Holes aren't known for their obsessive nature, I surmise.
I couldn't think of any other J nouns at the time.


 

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Originally Posted by Twisted Toon View Post
I jump too far, for one thing.

To be honest, Health and Stamina are less obvious boosts to performance.
Swift and Hurdle, on the other hand, throw off my movement.
Not so much as Speed Boost, but it's still intrusive.

Not enough to make me quite, mind you. But, it does irritate a little.
No amount of Gold Bond Medicated Powder helps either.
I do think that is a valid point. However, I'm confident that a majority of players will adjust to the new speeds pretty quickly.

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Originally Posted by Santorican View Post
12% passive regeneration on a Mental Blaster won't make much difference. You'd be hard press to notice a difference in survivability.
I would guess that amount is impossible to notice in actual combat situations. I can't think of a single time where I thought that 12% more regen would have kept me alive.


 

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Turn Hurdle and Swift into endurance-less toggles and allow them to use Travel IOs.


Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!

 

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Originally Posted by MunkiLord View Post
I do think that is a valid point. However, I'm confident that a majority of players will adjust to the new speeds pretty quickly.
Agreed. I'm sure most of the players are already adjusted, since datamining indicates that most players choose Fitness for most of their characters.

I'll even adapt to the new minimum run speed, jump distance, and flight speed.

I just feel compelled to add my opinion into any Stamina thread I come across.
Which finds me disagreeing with nearly everyone in the thread.


There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"

 

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I love the fact you call out someones bratty attitude the same post you USE CAPS TO PROVE YOU ARE RIGHT. But honestly I was just making fun of your gross over exaggeration in that earlier post. Most of your posts I just laugh off because your points are obscured behind enough hyberbole to make a fish story seem modest
So, your earlier point that Stamina does nothing to stop end-drain re such creatures are Mu was "making fun of gross over exaggeration"? OK. That sounds likely.

If you dislike my posts, don't read them. They're hardly mandatory.


 

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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence View Post

If you dislike my posts, don't read them. They're hardly mandatory.
Speak for yourself.


 

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Originally Posted by MunkiLord View Post
Speak for yourself.
Like I have a gun to his or her head, shouting "READ MY POSTS OR ELSE!"

Seriously, why complain? There are people whose posts I dont want to read, and so.... I don't read their posts. Quietly. Saying nothing. Sans drama. Those posts just don't get read.

He or she might want to give that a whirl. I have three classes of forumites: 1. most people. 2. People who might say interesting things but whom I find socially dangerous to interact with, so I read their posts but rarely if ever respond, because that does not work well and 3. The Radioactive, who as far as I am concerned, don't even exist out here. [They're so unlikeable that they may as well be emitting enough gamma rays to melt the average bunker.] Nobody is responsible for what I read, but me.

I think others are just as in command of their own forum experience, y'know?


 

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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence View Post
Like I have a gun to his or her head, shouting "READ MY POSTS OR ELSE!"

Seriously, why complain? There are people whose posts I dont want to read, and so.... I don't read their posts. Quietly. Saying nothing. Sans drama. Those posts just don't get read.

He or she might want to give that a whirl.
I honestly believe some people are not capable of that.

My favorites are when they announce they are putting RandomPosterA on ignore, then two pages later quote that person.


 

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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence View Post
So, your earlier point that Stamina does nothing to stop end-drain re such creatures are Mu was "making fun of gross over exaggeration"? OK. That sounds likely.

If you dislike my posts, don't read them. They're hardly mandatory.
Yes, you see 5000 Mu is a gross exaggeration.

Why would I want to stop reading your posts, I've already said they make me laugh didn't I?


 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
I'm still surprised to see people popping blue pills when they have over 1/3 a bar left or wait to recover.
I'm allergic to seeing the word "inspirations" in an ugly red font. It means that I might miss a useful drop.

If my insp tray fills up completely, a small blue's generally the first thing I'd pop, or a small green if I've been taking damage. Small yellows, reds, purples and oranges I tend to use the moment I get them -- meshing nicely with my brute's RP concept as an extremely fast thinker who adapts strategy and tactics on the fly as needed -- medium ones get used when a fight's starting to look interesting, large ones are held in reserve for emergencies.

Blue and green are the most disposable inspirations: all the others can, in the right circumstances, alleviate the need for them, but not vice versa.


My characters - all on Virtue.
Gabe's Internet [censored] Theory
RMT spammers WILL steal your credit card.

 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
I honestly doubt moderately abrasive posts every now and then will make that big a difference. So long as I don't pull an Umbral and sound completely condescending (and don't say I am. I haven't gone through everyone's posts and said how 'wrong' they are yet) or resort to name calling (how about slapping B_I on the wrist for putting down that 'bratty' comment?), I'll at least be tolerable...which is all I ask for.
Everyone already knows Bad Influence from years past, to the point where I could have quoted her name in the other post. It may seem inconsistent for me to pick on you and not her, but that's only because I've gone through this whole thing with her in the past, years and years ago, dating back to the early CoV days.

And, yes, I agree that "moderately abrasive" posts every now and then aren't that big of a deal, but they do build up, especially when it starts to feel like that's all you do. I know you don't, as I've had other discussions with you all over the 'net, but I'm starting to feel a bad tendency lately, as you seem all too willing to lay into people for very little provocation. This disregard is what I would look out for.

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Just to reiterate, I'm not skimming, I'm consiously shortening my responses so the thread doesn't hurtle into off-topic zone. If your management and tactics are up to snuff, then what was with the hyperbolized statement in your first post? As if you'd die without stamina over running like a coward? And I'd hardly paint non-fitness builds as either obsolete, gimped, cowards or dead, which is all I get from reading many of the posts so far.
This is why I feel like you're skimming my posts. I already answered that question. I won't be a **** and quote myself, so let me re-iterate: I have the necessary tools to manage endurance. The cost of doing this without Stamina, while manageable, is not always pleasant. And there are certain characters that, because of a choice of primary and secondary, do not do well without Stamina. The Brute I quoted is a particular problem, as I pitted two powersets that have heavy endurance use - Shield Defence and Battle Axe - on an AT which has an inherently poor endurance efficiency unless you play at a constant pace, which I can't always pull off, what with distractions and unfocused playing and all.

This particular Axe/Shield Brute, like my Stone/Stone Brute, can very much be played without Stamina, but it's not a very fun experience. Were she not one of my favourite concepts and designs to date, I likely wouldn't bother. Yes, I very much do run out of endurance mid-fight if I don't have enough endurance to start with, aggro more than one spawn or even simply miss more than usual. This is fixable, but at this point, I'm not gonna' fix it. I will, instead, sit on my hands for the next three or four days, or however long that takes, and welcome Stamina when it comes.

"Can't" has nothing to do with it. "Don't wanna'" is pretty much the sum total of the argument here.

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This isn't about the haves and have-nots, just making a general point. That people latch onto the 'l2ply' phrase and completely forget anything else in the post is probably more a point. Not that that is important, but have at it. I'm not going to drill all the hyperbole posted so far as I'd be here all night...
"lrn2ply" is an insult, pure and simple, pretty much as insulting as anything I could say that would get censored and deposit yet another stern warning from Moderator 05 in my inbox. That it doesn't get treated as such by the rules of conduct is simply a fact of it not being a profanity, but I've already been moderated for saying "go to hell," so there you go. It's insulting, pure and simple. That people will latch onto that one insult in your post and ignore the rest shouldn't really surprise you. It's the "I stopped reading after ****" phenomenon, and you just so happened to put that at the head of your post.

I'm not saying that no problem is ever the fault of a player and that no problem can be solved by helping the player learn to play better. The problem is that the way this argument is used, and indeed the way you used it, doesn't translate into "I can help you play better," as I think you may have meant it, but more as "You suck. Go to hell. Sucks to be you. Nyaa! I don't have your problems." This is nothing more than responding to a person's question or complaint with RTFM.

Call it a tangent if you will, but I want to say this. You proceed about your posts with an air of irreverence, throwing comments out there with an admitted indifference as to their consequences or recipients. Trust me - that doesn't work, and I know that from experience. You CAN very much be as blunt and direct as you have been, even more so, but you need to do so with some forethought towards the expected reaction and regard to the consequences. I've acted like a complete jerk in the past, there's no denying that, but I've always done that with the knowledge that this is what I'm doing and the expectation that this probably won't go over smoothly. You can't take such a devil may care attitude towards laying into people's posts, or you WILL become a pariah sooner or later. Mark my word on that.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Twisted Toon View Post
Hurdle adds more distance than height to jumps. That can cause some problems when trying to jump on a narrow ledge or wall.
True, true, there is that. However, there is the opposite effect. Hurdle give greater air control, meaning that while your jumps are wider, you have more control over your trajectory. Not by much, but it's there. There's also another benefit: Normal unenhanced jump is precisely as high as a specific type of shipping container (the one labelled "Shipping Container" in Mayhem missions) is tall from the ground. Because jump repeat (i.e. you jump again if you simply hold down the jump button) is always on by default and makes a great many things awkward if you turn it off, that means that you almost always jump OFF the container you just landed on if you try to climb one. With Hurdle giving a big of extra height, it should give more leeway to let go of the jump button before you re-jump when climbing one. And containers are common enough in warehouses and certain zones that this is relevant.

Again, I'm not dismissing the problem, just offering an alternate look at it.

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Besides, if I have a travel power (which I tend to pick up at level 6), I'll use that instead of sprint to proceed down long hallways. Or, I'll just Ninja run. I hardly use Sprint any more.
I'm talking about using Sprint in combat without leaving it on constantly. Picture the following example: I strike an enemy with Crane Kick, and that enemy gets knocked back about 10-15 feet. Now, I COULD just jog over to that enemy, but I want to get there faster and hit the enemy before he gets up. So, as soon as the enemy get Crane Kicked, I queue up Sprint and hold down the forward button. I Sprint over to where the fallen enemy is, queue up an attack and deactivate Sprint while my attack is animating. I have, in this way, run the intervening 10-15 feet about twice as fast for no more than a couple of ticks from the power.

Now that my base run speed with no toggles running is fast enough to do this, however, I will simply not bother with Sprint in these situations, as my various characters with Swift or Quickness (or Lightning Reflexes) have been doing since time immemorial. It's one less fiddly key press and one less thing to worry about, as I DO goof up occasionally and leave Sprint running for the entire fight when I didn't mean to, causing my endurance to drain much faster than it should.

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The point is, though, not everyone is concerned with the speed at which they complete missions (or travel) as others. Some people are also more concerned with character concepts than others. Which include some characters not having Ultra-Olympic athlete levels of fitness. Even the current abilities of characters will beat most, if not all, Olympic Athletes in any field.
I think we'll just have to disagree on this point. Far be it from me to put build before concept, but I feel that, even at basic values now, our characters are beyond Olympic athletes. Our base run speed is 14mph, which is a flatout sprint as far as I know, and our Sprinting speed is, what? 25mph? That's close to the maximum speed allowed for vehicles allowed within city limits in my country. And our jump height is something like 8 feet base from a static stand. Yes, with Swift and Hurdle these will be greater, but they're already beyond human capacity.

And again - I wouldn't have it any other way even if I were designing a "natural human" character. That sort of exaggerated movement is simply a device to make the game non-irritating. If we wanted to be fair to realism, we'd have to force everyone to WALK most of the time and make even basic running and jumping drain endurance like in the Battlefield games. Yes, the new jump and run stats are higher, but that - to me - is just quality of life. It means I have to spend less time walking down empty hallways and less time walking around obstacles. This has nothing to do with wanting to do missions faster or get experience faster or anything of this nature. I, personally, simply do not enjoy dead air, which is what just running through a long cave with no enemies to fight constitutes.

I don't discount the concerns either in terms of gameplay or in terms of concept. I just feel it's better with Inherent Fitness than without it. Fitness is probably the ONE power pool that I've always hated, and not because of the so-called controversy around it. Fitness is an "invisible" set that just gives you stats. An entire set of passive powers. To me, passive powers are boring. I want to DO things, not BE things. Fitness is also the one set that has bugged me from a concept standpoint. It's phrased as a pretty literal interpretation of human physical fitness in a game which supports so many non-human characters. Now that everyone has it, maybe we can start justifying it as more than strong cardio.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Cynical_Gamer View Post
Turn Hurdle and Swift into endurance-less toggles and allow them to use Travel IOs.
While they're at it they should remove the crash from all T9s and turn IH into a toggle


Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread

 

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Originally Posted by MunkiLord View Post
I honestly believe some people are not capable of that.

My favorites are when they announce they are putting RandomPosterA on ignore, then two pages later quote that person.
I'm putting you on ignore!


Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread

 

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Originally Posted by Father Xmas View Post
Yes, that's my point. If I don't want fitness on this character, I can't respec for ANY reason or I will get the fitness pool. No juggling slots or rearranging powers at all.

So to play my character concept, my way I lose my ability to do a respec on this character. I admit it's the only character that I have that the I19 change impacts and I'm not suggesting that in general that the vast majority of players and characters will benefit from this, other than those who whine that it doesn't come with extra slots, I'm just giving an example where I regret that there isn't a way to neuter the effects such as free unenhancements for those powers you can slot if you don't want them.
Actually umm, wrong. When you log in after I19 goes live your character who avoided taking any fitness power will instantly gain all 4 fitness powers. **POOF** just like that.

The only way to avoid it would be to respec right now and take hurdle or swift and don't slot it and then never respec.


But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius

List of Invention Guides

 

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Originally Posted by Santorican View Post
I'm putting you on ignore!
Darn!