Respeccing Fitnessless for Fitnessful
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2010-11-26 20:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Not all powers you can take cost endurance. Not all powers you can take cost a meaningful amount of endurance. Some powers actually improve your ability to be endurance-efficient.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
You guys are missing the point.
It's not that Stamina is now going to be inherent that is the problem. It's that it doesn't add any more endurance benefit to characters that already have it, while affording them more powers to use endurance on. It's spreading what little endurance we already had even thinner. |
Furthermore, this was never a change to help people who had Stamina before. This was a change to help people who didn't, as well as people who felt pressured into it, but wanted other powers, instead. This is to help people between levels 1 and 20. A lot of us fall into one or more of those categories.
If you just happen to be the kind of person who had Stamina before and already has or doesn't want any of the powers I mentioned at the start, then simply take three more powers, don't slot them and don't use them. How is that worse than what you had before?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yep, those three powers could be taken. You're saying everyone should take those three powers? My complaint is perfectly valid. Yes, you could stick in placeholders, but all you've done in that case is take Fitness earlier.
Here is my thought.
Interpret "health" and "stamina" as being the level of health and stamina you have just because you're a superhero. Then view the slots as additional training/health.
So your "really scrawny alien" character wouldn't even put an enhancement in Stamina, while a really buff guy might have three endmod and a performance shifter proc.
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Which hurts you how?
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
My complaint is perfectly valid. Yes, you could stick in placeholders, but all you've done in that case is take Fitness earlier.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Even more simple: Treat Swift, Hurdle, Health and Stamina as "stats" you can boost, like Strength, Dexterity, Vitality and Magic were in the old Diablo. You have the stats, and you can choose whether to increase them or not.|
Originally Posted by seebs
Here is my thought.
Interpret "health" and "stamina" as being the level of health and stamina you have just because you're a superhero. Then view the slots as additional training/health. So your "really scrawny alien" character wouldn't even put an enhancement in Stamina, while a really buff guy might have three endmod and a performance shifter proc. |
Hell, I think they should add stats for more stuff.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Sam, heres a hint;|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Which hurts you how?
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You're trying to go up against one of these;
To save you time and effort
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
You guys are missing the point.
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Your point is fatally flawed, we're not missing anything.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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If that course is taken, it doesn't hurt you. It doesn't benefit you either, though.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Which hurts you how?
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Yes, I could take the slots OUT of the Fitness powers, but that's diminishing the character's abilities relative to what the were. Again, I don't see that as a benefit.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Even more simple: Treat Swift, Hurdle, Health and Stamina as "stats" you can boost, like Strength, Dexterity, Vitality and Magic were in the old Diablo. You have the stats, and you can choose whether to increase them or not.
Hell, I think they should add stats for more stuff. |
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Sam, heres a hint;
You're trying to go up against one of these; To save you time and effort |
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Your point is fatally flawed, we're not missing anything.
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I'm not saying there's nothing good in this, I'm just saying there's no real benefit, and potentially more probelms, for higher level characters. If you disagree, fine. All I ask is rational argument.
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With the Incarnate system coming out, Why SHOULD inherent fitness be a buff to you?|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
If that course is taken, it doesn't hurt you. It doesn't benefit you either, though.
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Besides the fact that you are acting greedy and just want it to be?
Edit: Hint, if you have endurance problems slot Cardiac when the Alpha Slot comes out.
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel
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No they said YOU have no point, that's why you are being dismissed.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
So, you have no point and are just being dismissive?
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Okay. Here's my rational argument:|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I'm not saying there's nothing good in this, I'm just saying there's no real benefit, and potentially more probelms, for higher level characters. If you disagree, fine. All I ask is rational argument.
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On my characters who currently don't have fitness pool, I'll have more endurance and health available (because of increased regeneration and recovery), as well as moving a little faster and jumping a little higher. They unequivocally win.
On my characters who currently do have the fitness pool, I get three more powers to pick. Any three powers. They can be situational powers which I tend to only use outside of combat (where endurance is usually a non-issue); that's a pure benefit. They can be powers which I'd use inside of combat. Now, I might not have any more endurance, but frankly, most of my stamina characters are activation-time bound, not endurance bound, already. The limitation is not on how much endurance I have, but how often I can click. Three more powers won't change that, but it gives me more flexibility.
Maybe in That Other Game, where there exists an optimal "rotation" for many builds, it would be useless to have more powers. In CoH, flexibility is a huge win. It doesn't matter that I might use a power only occasionally; having it as an option makes me overall more effective.
So, for instance, my dark/dark defender might pick up Dark Pit. Sure, that's not a very heavily used power, lots of people consider it skippable. But on top of Howling Twilight, it's a pretty solid hunk of stun. Even a single acc/end or acc/end/stun IO in it would make it hit often enough (I have 50% or so inherent accuracy and a base to-hit over 90%) to be awfully useful. ... Occasionally.
But I'm still better off having that option than I would be not having that option.
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Except I do have a point. Simply saying I don't doesn't make it so.
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Originally Posted by LISAR
No they said YOU have no point, that's why you are being dismissed.
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This is true, it's a benefit to lower level characters, and I like this aspect of it.|
Originally Posted by seebs
Okay. Here's my rational argument:
On my characters who currently don't have fitness pool, I'll have more endurance and health available (because of increased regeneration and recovery), as well as moving a little faster and jumping a little higher. They unequivocally win. |
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| On my characters who currently do have the fitness pool, I get three more powers to pick. Any three powers. They can be situational powers which I tend to only use outside of combat (where endurance is usually a non-issue); that's a pure benefit. They can be powers which I'd use inside of combat. Now, I might not have any more endurance, but frankly, most of my stamina characters are activation-time bound, not endurance bound, already. The limitation is not on how much endurance I have, but how often I can click. Three more powers won't change that, but it gives me more flexibility. |
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| Maybe in That Other Game, where there exists an optimal "rotation" for many builds, it would be useless to have more powers. In CoH, flexibility is a huge win. It doesn't matter that I might use a power only occasionally; having it as an option makes me overall more effective. |
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So, for instance, my dark/dark defender might pick up Dark Pit. Sure, that's not a very heavily used power, lots of people consider it skippable. But on top of Howling Twilight, it's a pretty solid hunk of stun. Even a single acc/end or acc/end/stun IO in it would make it hit often enough (I have 50% or so inherent accuracy and a base to-hit over 90%) to be awfully useful. ... Occasionally. But I'm still better off having that option than I would be not having that option. |
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Hmm. It's true, but I don't think it's significant. You can already have endurance issues now for some sets, even with decently slotted Stamina.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Yes, the added flexibility is a benefit. However, new powers without new endurance means there is potential for endurance issues. This is all I'm saying.
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For the most part, my guess is that people who already have Stamina, and are having endurance issues, will go for utility powers like Recall Friend. These don't have any impact on combat endurance availability, but are handy to have. Or set mules which they put a single proc in. So they'll be better off, just not necessarily substantially more effective in combat.
But overall, every character is better off as a result of the change. The worst case is that you end up with enough more global recharge that, if you press buttons all the time, you can run out of blue. Well, if that happens, you're still better off than you were before; you now have the ability to put out that much more damage/healing/control in a short time (and focused power tends to matter more than longevity), and if you need to fight longer, you can sometimes not be using a power, and you're doing at least as well as you used to. Or you can carry a couple of blues.
I'd guess most high-level characters are close enough to being activation-time bound already that the real effect is purely one of extra IO bonuses, utility powers, and a few more options in combat -- no downside at all.
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I rather like this idea. In the old City of Heroes videos, I believe the game did in fact have stats for characters.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Even more simple: Treat Swift, Hurdle, Health and Stamina as "stats" you can boost, like Strength, Dexterity, Vitality and Magic were in the old Diablo. You have the stats, and you can choose whether to increase them or not.
Hell, I think they should add stats for more stuff. |
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Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
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It's also more or less what I said, but whatever.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
See, a rational, well stated argument. Thanks, Seebs.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
If that course is taken, it doesn't hurt you. It doesn't benefit you either, though.
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If all of your characters have taken Stamina, all of them have endurance issues and none of them can take powers which can be worked around that, then it's fair to say that this change wasn't aimed at you. You are within your full right to be disappointed, but you don't have a leg to stand on to complain.
As a point of fact, even if the system benefits none of your existing characters, it will still benefit your NEW characters. And contrary to how you present it, having all of fitness Earlier IS a significant improvement.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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True enough, you've been arguing rationally as well, apologies for the percieved slight, it was unintentional.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
It's also more or less what I said, but whatever.
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So it doesn't benefit YOU. It happens to benefit other people. Apparently, the problems the change was aimed at fixing weren't problems you were having. While I'm sorry to see you won't benefit from this addition, you didn't lose anything, so you have no ground to complain. I didn't complain that I didn't get anything out of the Vigilance changes or when Tankers were given Bruising just because I don't play either AT. If all of your characters have taken Stamina, all of them have endurance issues and none of them can take powers which can be worked around that, then it's fair to say that this change wasn't aimed at you. You are within your full right to be disappointed, but you don't have a leg to stand on to complain. As a point of fact, even if the system benefits none of your existing characters, it will still benefit your NEW characters. And contrary to how you present it, having all of fitness Earlier IS a significant improvement. |
I gave my arguements against your points in another Stamina related thread, Ultimo, and they, along with others points, seemed to simply be ignored.
Hence my somewhat blaze dismissal. I've been trying to make points against brick wall posters too much recently, and have finally reached my limitbreak move; Moar Pictures!
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I don't think the intention of this is to completely eliminate endurance woes, or health woes. I think the intent is to move them from "frustrating and tedious during levelling" to "one of the things to consider in your build".
I mean, obviously, if they changed health to give a 1500% boost to regeneration, many fewer people would run out of health during fights, but I don't think that would necessarily create a more-fun game. While some builds (willpower comes to mind) will probably have an excess of endurance when mixed with stamina, others will continue to have the potential to run out of endurance without careful slotting for endredux, and possibly even then.
That's okay, IMHO. If they wanted to eliminate endurance as a concern, they'd set everything to an endurance cost of 0 and be done with it, and people would view endredux in IOs as a wasted stat. Instead, I think they're trying to preserve it as a thing you do have to think about a little, but which you can manage with a bit of care. They just wanted to move that "bit of care" from "three of your power picks" to "a couple of slots".
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I agree, there is a lot to be said for it, I'm just saying it isn't the universal panacea some are making it out to be.
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The majority of posts I've read see it as helping lowbies who can use it while altering the options available to high level characters in a fairly minor way.
I haven't seen anyone singing HALLELUJA, NOBODY NEEDS TO EVER WORRY ABOUT END AGAIN!
It's fairly obvious why this change was made and its effects are easy to extrapolate. It isn't imposing an unfair burden on anyone, anywhere.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Oh true most builds will gain something from stamina. I've just never felt it was worth trading 3 powers for most of the time. Now though that it is free. ... I don't have any problem with it and certainly will enjoy the benefits. Particularly since it is no longer a choice between losing 3 powers or having stamina. I might even toss a couple of slots into it depending on how I feel. ::shrug::
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
While it's true that almost no build ever actually "needs" Stamina, it's also true that practically EVERY build is better with Stamina than without it. "How much better" has always been the pertinent question when Stamina required at least three power picks, because one had to know if it was better enough to devote the power picks to it. Now that it's free, that question becomes obsolete. Everyone WILL have Stamina, and everyone's builds will be better, to different degrees. |
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
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I appreciate that.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
True enough, you've been arguing rationally as well, apologies for the percieved slight, it was unintentional.
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| I agree, there is a lot to be said for it, I'm just saying it isn't the universal panacea some are making it out to be. Endurance woes are still my biggest issue with the game (among many others), and I know I'm not alone as threads on the topic have come up many times over the years. As I've said elsewhere, I see this as a bandaid on a broken leg. |
And while I can appreciate your concerns, I don't thin this was ever advertised as a complete and utter solution to endurance problems. I don't actually think it was intended to address problems at all. In my opinion, it was done to address the discrepancy between the "haves and have nots," so to speak. By removing Stamina as a resource-consuming choice, they removed the single biggest no-brainer in the game, and so hoped to give people more choice. Whether that was more choice for ALL people is subject for debate, but here's the thing - for no-one at no point will this result in LESS choice. More unnecessary, unwanted choice, perhaps, but more choice nonetheless.
I like the change because it means more endurance for me on most of my characters, more endurance and more choice on some of my characters and just more choice on precisely ONE of my characters - the Stone/Stone Brute I'd grabbed Stamina for anyway. For that Stone/Stone Brute, I intend to drop Air Superiority and possibly Mud Pots, and then use the so-gained slots (all 9 of them) on anything and everything I can cobble together from Earth Mastery. We'll see how that goes when I get to it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It's not that Stamina is now going to be inherent that is the problem. It's that it doesn't add any more endurance benefit to characters that already have it, while affording them more powers to use endurance on. It's spreading what little endurance we already had even thinner.