Respeccing Fitnessless for Fitnessful

There have been a number of times we are 4 or 5 mobs into a mission before MNP realizes he forgot to turn his toggles on. It's normally "man these guys are hitting hard I almost had to pop a green there I wonder why...ohh wait...there we go" and then everyone on vent laughs at him. I don't know maybe he's just a good scrapper since no toggles doesn't mean instant death (he's invulnerable I think).

I don't like melee so I don't have any first hand experience myself.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Since stamina doesn't provide protection from end drain a 5000 Mu hug brigaid wouldn't mind if you had it.

Probably because it wasn't really called for either. The statement I quoted in the first post really hadn't much to do with what the OP was even asking nor was it even all that truthful. Only in the context of someone that doesn't know what they are doing does it make complete sense.

It also comes with a 20% dmg buff, a 30% recharge buff and some resistance to endurance drain if you were facing such foes.

It was improving the efficiency of your character. By how much, I can't tell as I'm not a numberz wiz. But to say x% of recovery magically solved your issues is interesting seeing as such a low number can easily be duplicated with a % of endurance redux.

So 'Stamina will fix this'? Yeah, probably similarly to a certain amount of END redux, or a large enough damage bonus would fix it.

It depends what your sense of fun is. I enjoy progress and in the early levels, you feel progress in every respect. But it slows down past lvl 35 which is when I start to switch to previous alts. It's not that it's 'not fun', it's just 'not as fun'. Probably the same most feel with the early levels because, honestly, it's not that challenging...

If you're that offended, you really need to grow some thicker skin. Or is internet speek 'serious business'. Gosh, I should really brush up on my memes.

And how could I be telling everyone who has Fitness that if I take fitness on some of my characters too? Is there some kind of racial divide between humans who do and don't? Is this like that whole Hero vs Villain thing?

Some growing up is needed...

Some advice you might take yourself, man. Instant judgement of people and telling them 'L2Play'...did you really expect any other sort of response?

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I don't always agree with you Techbot. And this is one of those times.
Stamina was never mandatory. Only play-styles dictate whether stamina is considered mandatory or not.

I have had very few characters where I thought I needed Stamina in order to enjoy (key word) playing those characters. That is my play-style.

Obviously, yours differs.

Yet, I still manage to keep up with "Mandatory" Stamina players with my Stamina less Blasters, Controllers, Tankers, Defenders, Scrappers, Kheldians, Brutes, Dominators, Masterminds, Corruptors, Stalkers, Widows, and Soldiers. Some better than others, granted.

That is, of course, my opinion.
And for the record, I thought that making Fitness inherent was a mistake.
That, also, is my opinion.

And everyone knows that my opinion is the one that counts. ...for me

Fair enough, and I'm not attempting to knock the people who managed without Fitness. Heck, well done to them, in all seriousness.

But when the overwhelming majority do take Stamina, despite it not being mandatory, that says something about the majority's comforbility with not having it.

Also, how does anyone lose in this scenario anyway? Those who took Fitness before now get more powers to use and get Stamina from level 2. And those who never took it are now getting a little boost for free. How is any of that a bad thing?

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I didn't get an unexpected response, as indicated by the many past 'Stamina is mandatory' threads. Even for the accusations of 'he must play regen' posts and such, it's nothing new.

But to see players will still find a way to separate players into subgroups *is* an epiphany. Especially considering I never stated anything about fitness and those that take it (or not).

And just to make this clear, I doubt anyone said such. I know I didn't say 'you took stamina so you need to lrn2ply'. Is that what you *really* saw? Because that's a big leap. Hell, you can take stamina and *still* run out of endurance. What does that say about any of your stances?

This is a great way of looking at the mechanic. For how open-ended and friendly to customization City of Heroes, it's amazing how often people try to pigeon hole themselves. The endurance bar (and heck, the health bar) can represent a lot of different things depending on the character and powerset.

Hate is not a strong enough word. I prefer loathe.

Oh, really? How about this, then?

Still don't think it's relevant that I brought up the "Endurance Management becomes meaningless" argument? I never said I disagreed with Moo on that particular aspect, at least I don't think I did, but he brought it up and I picked up on it.

And it's funny you're the one to bring up the "irrelevant" card, considering you decided to dedicate an entire post to what you claim was off-topic. I mean, sure, criticise me all you want, but let's not lose perspective here, please.

Do you honestly want me to elaborate here? 20% damage buff is what I get for being in combat for two seconds, being a Brute. Recovery buffs are good... Were I in any way aware of what a good attack chain was for Battle Axe. Maybe I'm so damn good I just instinctively knew, but mostly, I just fired off attacks as they seemed appropriate. Big attacks on healthy enemies, small attacks on damaged enemies, AoE attacks when I could clip more than three people.

Furthermore, this one particular Brute was just an example. I've played Battle Axe before and combined it with Willpower. I know how striking the endurance management difference is before and after Quick Recovery, and before and after I slot it. I've also taken Stamina, which turned a completely broken and laughably unpalyable Stone/Stone Brute, such that I would run out mid-way through EVERY spawn unless I paused for two seconds between every two attacks (I'm serious) into a character who plays perfectly well. He still runs out from time to time if I'm not careful, but I don't have to buffer my attacks with nothingness and I don't have to fear running out all the damn time.

I'm not an idiot. I know how to manage my endurance without Stamina. And I know exactly how far that goes and what that costs. I PREFER endurance management with Stamina, and it will solve many problems I have with not having enough slots early enough to solve certain problems, or not being able to run toggles I want to run, or not being able to use specific powers outside of special circumstances. I know the difference between Stamina and no Stamina. And it WILL fix the bulk of my endurance problems.

Yes. A single endurance reducer's worth. In every. Single. Power. Brutticus has seven attacks plus Build Up and four toggles plus Active Defence right at this time, which by my math comes up to 13 slots of nothing but Endurance reduction. That's 13 slots of endurance reduction ON TOP OF the 13 slots of endurance reduction I already have put into my powers. I don't have 13 slots to devote to that. Hell, I don't really know where I'll find the slots to put into Stamina and Health, and that's with many of my secondary powers still woefully under-slotted.

Please don't patronise me, Leo. I'm not an idiot. I'm not trying to weasel out the easy way. I know what I'm doing and I know what it takes to slot a character to work without Stamina. I've done it before. However, free Stamina makes doing this far, far, FAR easier, helping the characters I could never properly balance and giving those that never had endurance problems more slots to go around to different powers. To my 50 Stone/Stone Brute, it gives three new power picks, allowing me to turn him into a Stone/Stone/Earth Brute like I always wanted. To my Dark/Dark/Dark Scrapper, it gives the opportunity to use Cloak of Fear, were I so inclined. To my 50 Energy/Energy/Force Blaster, it gives the ability to use Repulsion Field, were I to find a use for it.

Stamina WILL solve my problems. You are free to doubt my sincerity and/or my intelligence. But you know what the good part is? I know you're wrong, and I19 is nothing but wonderful news for me. Poo-poo that all you want. It doesn't make my characters any less improved.

*edit*
Just as sidenote, you are technically right. You CAN meet and exceed the effects of Stamina with enough endurance reduction. The eponymous Samuel Tow, a Kat/SR/Body Scrapper, managed to run Focused Fighting, Focused Senses, Evasion, Combat Jumping, Focused Accuracy and Stealth, all at the same time, all permanently, all without Stamina back when Focused Accuracy had an absurd cost. And that's without Conserve Power. He achieve that by double-slotting every single one of his attacks for endurance, as well as double-slotting all of his toggles, including Combat Jumping. I'd have to look at his build, but off memory, that came up to about 20-30 slots for JUST that.

Yes, it solved his endurance problem. Yes, I'm proud of how I did it. I also know it's the equivalent of fixing a dent on your car by getting a new car. Yes, it's cool and yes, I'd be proud of it, but I can't really afford it pretty much at all these days.

The more you insult and bully people, the less credibility you have. You COULD post these things in a less confrontational manner, but you openly choose not to, and that tells, because this isn't the first time you've done this.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

This is a problem I tend to have with other people's interpretation of in-game concepts, actually, and it's something that's gotten me verbally attacked on several occasions: We cannot and should not examine the basic character infrastructure as always assuming a HUMAN character. Yes, it seems to have been built with that assumption, but it doesn't mean we have to restrict ourselves to it, especially when enough meta-game mechanics can be explained in other ways.

You bring up a good point with hit points not representing what one might think. Physical health, spectral cohesion, shield strength, magical power and so on are perfectly valid interpretations of hit points. At their core, "hit points" are merely a representation of what it takes to incapacitate your character. What that incapacitation means and how it works, however, is not inherent in the concept itself. In fact, I don't think that represented medical health at all in the older P&P games from which the term originates, but I don't know enough to claim either way.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

The point here is not that Stamina provides a shield between you and your average contingent of Mu parade-floats; the point here is that someone with Stamina is GOING TO GET THAT END BACK FASTER than someone without Stamina rounding a corner and meeting two Mu Adepts.

Without Stamina: sapped, dead, hosp. Or, sapped, run away, take 5 min to recharge because Rest is still down from you using it 30 seconds ago, and you got to stand around WAITING and WAITING and WAAAAIIITTTINGGGGGG. This is not my idea of a fun mission.

With Stamina: sapped, eat a few blues, back in business - or run off and recharge 30 seconds later, then back to the fight.

Some people prefer option one, and I don't get it - but then there are a lot of stylistic choices in life I don't get either. Truly, it takes all kinds.

Some growing up is indeed needed, if you think this bratty attitude of yours is convincing anyone to drop the Fitness pool like a hot potato. Or that those of us with Fitness on everyone need to "learn to play." If anyone made such a snide statement about one of your playstyles you would be the first to cry foul.

You caught me, you know me so well >_>

I am a tad grumpy (who wouldn't be? althought this year's black friday wasn't that bad at all) but I'm not any more confrontational than the original statement was obtuse. It's just, in my grumpy-ish state, I don't really care who I'm saying it to. But if there were little credibility in what I say, I should just be brushed off like any basic troll, right?

Anyway all will be good after a bit of the consumption later tonight...

Not really, considering the quoted is just a pair of sentences vs, like, half a post. But I was particularly aiming at what I originally quoted to leave the rest alone. However the rest ended up being touched on considering how touchy people get about 'l2ply' when it's in the same thread as the terms 'stamina' or 'fitness'. If you don't see how interesting it is, perhaps you should step back for some perspective. In the offending post and its quote, fitness or stamina weren't even involved and could as easily apply to anyone that has stamina or doesn't...unless what you said is actually what you do, in-game...

Well, I did say I don't really care who I'm saying it to, I just post what sparks my interest in a post. Just stating a fact. No more harmless than the accusations, name calling and generalizations being thrown my way. Please prove me wrong, but it feels like there's some deep seeded prejudice lingering in regard to the subject otherwise the 'When I picked up stamina it completely turned everything around' talk isn't needed. It's as if you must justify the change coming or shift everyone's perspective to your own. What's the deal, anyway? But it won't change the facts: better management of endurance and better tactics regarding the foe is your magic cure, with or without stamina.

I love the fact you call out someones bratty attitude the same post you USE CAPS TO PROVE YOU ARE RIGHT. But honestly I was just making fun of your gross over exaggeration in that earlier post. Most of your posts I just laugh off because your points are obscured behind enough hyberbole to make a fish story seem modest .

I jump too far, for one thing.

To be honest, Health and Stamina are less obvious boosts to performance.
Swift and Hurdle, on the other hand, throw off my movement.
Not so much as Speed Boost, but it's still intrusive.

Not enough to make me quite, mind you. But, it does irritate a little.
No amount of Gold Bond Medicated Powder helps either.

Yes, that's my point. If I don't want fitness on this character, I can't respec for ANY reason or I will get the fitness pool. No juggling slots or rearranging powers at all.

So to play my character concept, my way I lose my ability to do a respec on this character. I admit it's the only character that I have that the I19 change impacts and I'm not suggesting that in general that the vast majority of players and characters will benefit from this, other than those who whine that it doesn't come with extra slots, I'm just giving an example where I regret that there isn't a way to neuter the effects such as free unenhancements for those powers you can slot if you don't want them.

You might want to reread my post or I19 is going to be very "surprising" for you.

Glad we could amuse you.

To save you the surprise, you won't lose the option to respect otherwise have fitness thrust onto your build. Instead, if you currently have no fitness powers, you'll magically have them all once you log in. No respec required. I think the only way around it is picking up swift/hurdle and leaving the other pool alone. As long as you never respec in that circumstance, you can stay away from either swift or hurdle + health/stamina.

Example: My Spines/Dark stalker and EM/EA stalker that don't have fitness at all now, will have all 4 when logging in i19. But my Claws/EA brute has hurdle and health but not swift and stamina and will have to respec to get the rest of the pool.

But it's just like many people say, inherent fitness is subtle enough to be ignored. You won't be suddenly regening your HP back in a blink, you won't be suddenly leaping over tall buildings or able to run unoptimized attack chains without worry.

Good point. My bad, it looks like I'm getting it whether I want it or not.

Still would like un-enhancements specifically for each of those powers so I can neuter them. Insane I know. But that's what some players said about the No XP switch.

12% passive regeneration on a Mental Blaster won't make much difference. You'd be hard press to notice a difference in survivability.

Negative enhancements (originally for people who don't like KB) weren't working right and never left internal test servers

It takes more than one or two posts to come to that conclusion, Leo, and I've done what I can to get along with you in the past, with varying results. What I'm saying is that the way you present yourself and the way you treat other people builds up in people's memory. City of Heroes in general and the forums in particular constitute a community that is built on retention more than anything else, and people remember.

Just as a simple, non-loaded example, Friggin Tazer and Miss Kitty didn't earn their reputation in a day. They earned their reputation over the span of years. You are not a low-key poster. People remember you. Whether you choose to take responsibility for what people remember you for or not is up to you.

I quoted a paragraph and responded to it with a paragraph. A paragraph out of a three-paragraph post is hardly "half a post," especially when the entire bulk of the rest of the post discussed the topic Moo brought up. You chose to latch onto my tangent and... Well, behold the result. When I speak about responsibility, this is what I mean. Consider that had you not made an argument out of it, it would have likely dropped and remained unmentioned, instead of becoming what the thread is de-facto about. I take responsibility for the tangent, as I should have learned by now that no tangent is "off-topic" enough to be sure the thread won't become about it if someone turns it into a pet peeve. Today, you get to be that someone.

Two points:

1) I'm excited about getting Swift, Hurdle, Health and Stamina without having to spend power picks on it. When I'm excited about something, I talk about it. I know how powerful Stamina is. I've avoided it over the years for various reasons, but I've never denied its use. Now I'm getting to have the power without devoting the power picks. This will make many things far easier, and I don't have to give anything up to achieve it. If you can't see how that might make me excited, then maybe you need to get some perspective, instead.

[edit]I'm far more likely to admit something sucks if I have an alternative, so I'm far more willing to admit my old builds aren't very good now that they can be made better at no cost[/edit]

2) I already have better endurance management and tactics. I'm starting to get the feeling you're simply skimming my posts. I have better management and tactics, but they are not always enough, and often require solutions that I don't enjoy. One solution is Set Inventions, which I outright refuse to deal with. Another solution is simply attacking slower, which I've already used on one character. It's a really BAD solution. Another solution running fewer toggles, which I do on my Dark/Dark, but I WANT to run more toggles, hence the solution is unpleasant. Another solution still is to slot more endurance reduction, which I've done on my Kat/SR, but it constitites a good quarter of his entire build, making it an unpleasant solution.

I run the numbers, I find out what's costing me the most, what's the most efficient when and find out how to best minimize my costs. Sometimes that's enough, other times it's insufficient, but even when just that'll do it... I still WANT more. Yes, I don't specifically NEED Stamina on anything but one or two characters, as evidenced by the fact that in six years, I've only taken the power once. I still WANT Stamina, because it will allow me to use that as my endurance management solution and both loosen up my builds and loosen up my playstyle.

What you're arguing is in essence a rant against someone who's jubilant that he's getting a bonus at work. Yes, it's very much possible to live on less money, and many of us who aren't filthy rich survive just fine every day. That doesn't mean having more is bad, or that we shouldn't be excited about it. I don't need to prove anything to anyone, you least of all since you admit you don't care. The only two things I want to say are "I'm happy we're getting Stamina for free." and "If you feel this is ruining the game, I have to disagree." I really don't need you to tell me I'm doing it wrong when the actual in-game reality does not reflect this.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.