How long will the exploits go on?

Quite a bit of my gaming happens in a vacuum.
I solo a lot, I spend a lot of time messing around at the tailor, I spend a lot of time fiddling around with my one-man SG bases.

The old canard it's a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER game so you should blah blah blah blah! is every bit as ridiculous a position as people who want every little thing to be optimized for soloing.

The game provides for a large range of behaviors and playstyles, which is one of its strengths.


It certainly affects the market. Are you assuming that impact is negative?
It's positive for all those 'casual gamers' selling their junky common salvage for huge sums. It's positive for anyone who's looking to kit out with formerly very expensive IO recipes, which are currently available in bulk at steep discounts.

Yes, it's negative for some players (for example, my guy going after Field Crafter who's trying to turn a profit on the way has been sidetracked by the relative paucity of common and uncommon salvage), but it's far from a universally BAD THING.

As for the rest, it's the usual boilerplate. There have been level 50's played by total know-nothings for as long as there's been a game. It inflicts no harm on "immersion" beyond that cause by a cursory scan of broadcast chat in any busy zone in the game.

As for what MA was "intended" for....that's irrelevant.
As I noted in another thread, if you give someone a sports car but insist it's a workout machine, you don't get to act all surprised when they jump in and peel out for Vegas instead of pushing it around the block like you wanted.

Even the most stringently story-driven, well balanced and lovingly edited Dev's Choice arc pays off MUCH more efficiently than "real" content. When you create a reward structure that's inherently more efficient than the "real" game, you're going to attract rewards driven players, period.

Where do I sign up for the AEnquisition?



Eco

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

Just want to point out that isn't always true(though it might be true in most cases).

Three of my five most played characters were power leveled during 2XP weekends.

And yet you still didn't address my main point. Are you honestly trying to argue that "it doesn't affect you" is still a valid argument when these exploits most obviously affect players that have no desire to run them? Or are you just saying that it does affect everyone but that the net effect of exploits and those who use them is positive? Because that's suspiciously like what it sounds like you and some others here are saying, and that notion is incredibly stupid.

Once again, I'll try to be as clear as I can. People who initiate and propagate exploits should be banned. People who participate in exploiting should have their stuff taken away. People who try to justify exploiting, whatever idiotic rationale they come up with, do not have the long-term health of the game at heart and their opinions in this arena should be summarily disregarded.

When I was younger, I heard a story once (probably an urban legend) about a man who suffered such agonizing migraines that he finally gave up. He shot himself in the head. As luck would have it, though, he lived and managed to destroy the part of his brain that was causing the migraines, and went on to live a long and happy life. I also heard a story (probably also an urban legend) about a man who was so despondent that he went to the roof of a skyscraper and jumped off. A strong updraft caught him, though, and blew him all the way right back to the roof that he had moments earlier jumped off of. He was so moved by the experience, believing that it was divine intervention that saved him for a higher purpose, that he devoted the rest of life to helping others who were thinking of taking such tragic action.

Based on these stories, one could surmise that if you have a headache or are feeling a little down, you should shoot yourself in the head or jump off a building. These notions should be ridiculed for how foolish they are, as should be the notion that exploits are somehow good for the game or shouldn't be addressed in a manner that keeps similar activities from occurring again.

Good point- I have several treasured characters who I PL'ed in various ways over the course of my CoH career (wolf missions, kora fruit, stealthing PvP missions, Dreck, X2 xp, etc)

It would be more accurate to say that new players without a wide range of game experience would lack attachment to these 'insta-50's' and the larger game world.

Although I myself have deleted many PL'ed characters for relatively insignificant reasons over the years, while keeping seriously flawed characters I don't really enjoy playing simply because of the hours I'd already invested in them (ar/dev, I'm looking at you!)

If you had a point beyond "omg some people aren't playing like I want them too!" it was artfully obscured.

I haven't ever made the argument it doesn't affect you.
I'm not arrogant enough to presume TOTAL KNOWLEDGE of a system as complex as this game. Heck, I've deeply immersed myself in the market sub-game since I9 and it still does things that surprise me and run counter to my expectations.

My argument is how other people play is none of your business, as long as they aren't personally agressing you.

If there's a systemic problem, that's the dev's to deal with. /Bug it, or report it or whatever and get back to playing your game the way you like it. If there's a behavioral problem, /petition it.

Otherwise, play your game your way and don't freak out about other people's idea of fun.

Why?

I've already noted ways in which 'casual' gamers have benefited from the current enthusiasm for MA- their common salvage is suddenly worth a relative fortune. IO recipes that they may have previously considered out of their reach are suddenly vastly more affordable.

I've agreed that efficiency on this level isn't good for 'the game' as a whole and that the devs should absolutely turn off the spigot- I'm very surprised the current fad lasted past our last scheduled maintenance.

That doesn't mean it doesn't produce some incidental positive effects from a 'man on the street' perspective.

And like I said, the Purity Police would find the game a cold, lonely place if all their 'undesirables' were summarily driven off.

A better approach is to tend your own garden and leave the subject of your neighbors dubious crop to the proper authorities.

You aren't the custodian of anyone else's fun.

One of my favorite characters is an AE Mito-farm baby. She didn't get to 50 in there, but she powered past the pre-Stamina stuff and that is good enough for me.

Powerleveling does not affect my attachment to a character; what affects my attachment is, how fun is the character to play? If they are fun, they get to stay.

If they are not fun, they leave. And such farms allow me to experiment without a bunch of time invested, which means I get MORE time to play those folks that I like playing whilst I weed out the dreck.

Its a win/win for me. And if other people have a problem with that, I am sorry but is that going to affect my playstyle? No. Just like how I play does not affect theirs.

As far as the "instant level 50 button".... I'm an extremist. I think that should be a vet reward. You are here long enough, you get to bypass all the crap and focus on tricking out your new fifty. Say once a month you should be able to do this. I can imagine the screams now, were this to happen. LOL. Drama!

And the devs & GM's bear zero responsibility for allowing this current exploit to go on for weeks with no action? They get a clean pass, do they?

The current popular 3 exploit arcs have been run by thousands of players. I guarantee they have been reported dozens, if not hundreds of times. Yet the GM's allow them to stay. Blaming the players only goes so far. Ultimate responsibility for the current state of affairs rests entirely with NCSoft. Ranting about players being players is wasted effort.

I agree with this. I wouldn't want an "insta-50" button, but I can't see the harm in, as a 6 year vet, having my character pop instantly to 22. That's all I want. The pre-22 game - even with Stamina now included - is dreadful to me. It feels like I'm just playing to put powers on the table, scraping my way up to being able to efficiently frankenslot with 25 IOs. That's when things get fun for me. I know how to play the game, I've got some of every AT (I've tried every AT at least, there are some that just weren't my cuppa.)

New players doing this, while sad, doesn't freak me out. I agree it's bad for the game, it's bad for them, and it's bad for the people who have to try and play with them on PuGs when they don't know what their powers do and never knew how to slot or fill their slots. But I don't PuG, so selfishly enough, they can have their fun without ruining mine.

The bottom line for me is: this is the programmers' fault. This is what, the third exploit of this type that needs to be fixed since GR went live, or just before it? Whoever is tweaking the AE code keeps screwing up and putting in mobs that are worth more than they should be. PLAYERS are not hacking the servers and putting these exploits in. The devs are. And now they are ignoring the multiple reports I'm sure they've had on this, just as it took weeks to fix the spiders and who knows how long to fix the one before that.

So really... the exploits will go on until someone in Paragon decides quality control is a priority.

a related though from my last tilt at this particular windmill:

Players can only do what is expressly allowed by the system the devs create.

Barring *actual hacking* there is nothing a player can do in this game that wasn't created, signed off on and published by the developers.

I don't assign blame in these situations- the devs are dealing with an almost comically complex system and can't be realistically expected to catch every little thing, and players being players are going to seek out efficient rewards paths.

But if you must blame, it's silly to ignore the people who created and released the content.

CONFESSIONS OF AN AE EXPLOITER

(Preface: Back during the first round of AE exploits and the subsequent declaration of retroactive punishments, I quit the game. At that time I was not an AE Exploiter. I just felt Positron was being a jerk about the whole thing. Still feel that way.)

I. Innocence Lost

It all started one day a week or two ago. I'd rolled a new electric/storm 'troller over on Virtue and had been dutifully playing through the Magic origin lowbie content. When he was level 6 (I'd already picked up the Safeguard jet pack thingee) I decided I might as well do the Hollows arcs, as I usually avoid them and it had been a while. So off to the Hollows I went, and was in the process of defeating 10 Outcasts when I got a tell: "Hi want to level really fast?"

I almost typed my standard reply, "Heya - not right now, but thanks for asking!" but on that day I was feeling a little frisky so I decided, what the heck, let's see what it's all about. So I said, "Heh, okay - what do I have to do?"

"Come to AE in Galaxy."

AE? But I thought that had all been taken care of long ago...? The team invitation window popped up, I clicked to join, and was on a full team. I hurried on over to Galaxy City and made my way to the AE building. The team entered a mission. It had a Christmas theme, with little Santa Claus guys and helpers and an assortment of imps running around. We started fighting, and DING! And shortly after that, DING!

And I was all like,

Someone said to just attack the imps and leave the rest alone. So we just attacked the imps, and DING! Fight, fight, fight, DING! After maybe ten minutes, the team leader ended the mission so everyone could go level. At this point, I sent the leader a tell: "Thanks for the team, and wow, you weren't kidding about the levels!" and left. My 'troller was now level 17.

I went to the trainer and leveled up. I've continued to play that character through regular content. He's now level 23.

II. The Fall

Then one morning altitis struck again. I had come up with a name and a costume - and lo and behold, the name was available! But what AT to play? And where to start her? I didn't want to do another 'troller, or another defender (having just played a rad/sonic to 22 via regular content prior to rolling the 'troller mentioned above), nor another corruptor. After poking around the AT forums, I decided to go with a mind/electric Dominator, and I wanted her to be a Hero. So I started her in Praetoria, but within seconds of entering the tutorial I decided, blah, I don't want to do all this again. Sigh. Praetoria was great - and I say 'was' because there just isn't enough there to make the repetition seem less... repetitive. If you see what I mean. I pretty much hate CoV, but I figured what the heck. So I deleted the dom and started over in the Rogue Isles.

I was doing Kalinda's missions, doing my standard 'kill everything between the contact and mission door and back' routine and had just dinged level three when I got a tell: "AE team want to join?"

And I thought about what was ahead. And how long it would take playing through content I really don't like to get this character over to blueside...

...and that's when I officially became a dirty rotten cheating AE exploiter, because this time I knew exactly what it was and I said "Okay!" anyway.

There were no Santa Claus guys in this mission, and the imps were called monkeys, but the effects were the same: DING! Fight, fight, fight, DING! Fight, fight, fight, DING! At level 20, I thanked the team and dropped out. I started doing tip missions, and soon had my five for the day. Next day, five more, and the morality mission. Ah, Submariner Janus, nice to meet you. Can I bum a ride? Thanks. Hello, Paragon City! I played that character through regular content up to level 23, then parked her beside a black helicopter over in the Rogue Isles so she can get the Pilot badge, which is not available to Heroes.

III. MOAR MOAR MOAR

Well. Altitis never sleeps, and I still had open slots on Virtue. So I rolled up a tanker. Natural origin. Got Isolator. Over the course of a couple of days I played through the regular lowbie Natural origin missions. Got the Safeguard jet pack thingee. Level 6. Level 7. Level 8. Every now and again I'd go back to Atlas Park and look at the Broadcast chat. Lots of people looking for AE teams. Lots of people already on AE teams looking for more. I'd consider replying, but then go back to the missions. Level 9. Level 10. Level 11. Then, in Atlas Park, a Broadcast: "AE team lfm." I sent a tell: "I'll join!"

This time I stayed until level 22. SOs, baby. I've played him through regular content on up to 23, and there he sits awaiting inherent stamina.

IV. Reflection and Oopsie

Did I mention I have altitis? I have 11 level 50s (Blaster, Defender, Tanker, Tanker, Controller, Tanker, Warshade, Corruptor, Scrapper, Tanker, Widow), all from playing regular content. I have a level 42 Corruptor who started in Praetoria - and I really enjoyed that first run of the content. It was GREAT. I have a level 40 redside Brute. I have a vast array of characters ranging throughout the 30s. Mass quantities of characters in the 20s. A lot of them I don't play anymore, as they were made as part of a duo, and my duo partner is long gone. I mostly stick to Infinity, where I have three full columns of characters that are spread through four or so different SGs. I recently started playing on Virtue, as I had a lot of expendable level 1 'concept' characters and duplicates there, stuff I didn't mind deleting to make room for new alts. My level 42 Corruptor Praetorian started there, btw, and moved to Infinity during the last free exchange thing.

Anyway. Another fine morning dawned and another attack of altitis attacked, and I decided to give Stalkers another shot. Never been too crazy about the AT, never got one out of the teens, but I figured what the heck. Once again, I wanted this character to go blueside ASAP, as I really don't care for CoV and only play it because I have some friends who do. Having experienced the joys of 'fast forwarding' to SOs, I made this one with the intent that if the opportunity presented itself I most certainly would join an AE team and stay with it until level 22.

Well. I started playing. Went with Burke. Did every mission he offered. Doctor Creed was not an option for this character: I'm not an RPer but most of my characters do have some, well, character... and this one didn't go for kidnapping homeless people (she would go for clobbering Doctor Creed, if such an option was available. Alas!). So I took her to Port Oakes and started doing newspaper missions. Did the first Mayhem Mission. Ran through Billie Heck's missions. Decided against doing the Radio's missions. So, back to more newspaper missions. Second Mayhem Mission. By this time my Stalker was level 12. I hadn't seen any AE activity in Mercy or Port Oakes beyond a few folks looking for teams. Then I went to Cap to buy DOs. And there it was: "AE team lfm."

And again I said, "I'll join." Oh, hell yes, I'll join.

Now, I'm sure a lot of you have preconceived conceptions of what a team of filthy cheating AE exploiters must be like. And you may even be right about some of them. As for the ones I've been part of - this particular one being my fourth - they have not been significantly different from any other team of players doing any other content. There's friendly chat. There's cooperation. Team members looking out for each other with buffs and heals and handing over inspirations. There was one team, my second, I think, that had one guy who was something of a dork. Otherwise, nice, normal, friendly folks. For rotten, filthy, no-good, cheating exploiters, that is.

These monkeys were brutal. There was even a team wipe at one point. We persevered. Always, it seemed, there was one more group just ahead. Some guy dinged 50. Gratz! I was trying to keep track of my own dings - was planning to stop at 22 - but I lost count. There were a couple of Brutes on the team. I kept finding myself fighting alongside one in particular. Together we clobbered one monkey, after a multitude of whiff attacks on both our parts. The Brute said, "I knew we'd get him! We had him outnumbered two to one!" or something to that effect. I saw that I had hit level 20. There wasn't much uncleared map left. I decided to stay until the map was cleared.

And... (here's the oopsie part) my new Stalker was level 26 when that last group of monkeys fell. And I must admit, I did feel a little dirty at that point. Going up to 22 was one thing, but 26? That was pushing it. I actually considered deleting that character and starting over, but then I thought about what it would take to get back to that point via regular content - and the new was already wearing off fighting monkeys (I've mentioned in previous posts how much I hate doing the same thing over and over) - and decided I could live with feeling a little dirty. A couple of days later, I went back and did the tip and alignment missions and brought my new fully SO'd stalker on over to happy blue land.

This all happened over the course of the past couple of weeks, during which I was also playing my 'regular' characters on their regularly scheduled outings. I like my new AE babies and would prefer to keep them just as they are. I don't have any intentions of rolling any more (and not just because I don't have any more 'expendable' slots on Virtue).

To sum up:

controller: regular content to level 6, AE to 17, regular content to 23
dominator: regular content to level 3, AE to 20, regular content to 23
tanker: regular content to level 11, AE to 22, regular content to 23
stalker: regular content to level 12, AE to 26, regular content to 27

So, there you go. Make of all that what you will.

Yes, but your colossal ignorance is from your lack of reading comprehension.

Notice the FIRST point. They're pretty much focused on i19 at the moment. While it's annoying as hell, they'd rather just push i19 with the exploit fix than backport the fix to the current code base, test it, then push it out. By the time they do that, i19 should be release-worthy.

Please keep in mind that the devs' timetable is not whatever you might imagine it should be. And as for fixing bugs and exploits you dislike RIGHT FRICKIN' NAO, please see the standard code rant.

Then come back and gripe once you actually know what you're talking about.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

Please let us know when you come up with a way to simultaneously track and correct floating values of "appropriate" across a complex database. It must come with a negative feedback loop that will prevent the programmers from inputting inappropriate data, either accidentally or on purpose. Indeed, it must be impossible for them to input any data at all unless it's been crosschecked against ALL of the several million variables in which it could occur.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

It depends. I don't know anything about this particular AE situation. But if you, say, discover a bug that lets you duplicate IOs, and use the "if you didn't want this to happen you shouldn't have let it into your game" argument, chances are the best you could hope for is that the IOs only get removed from your inventory. Whether that will happen to these folks depends on what the nature of exploit is, and whether it is only a case of unbalanced enemies or hardcore bug abuse.

I'm sure that once it's my job, I'll get right on that. But it isn't. It's theirs.

How is building a mission that has bunches of over calculated EXP different then holding an IO with the cursor while manipulating your AH window to produce a free one?

Again it depends.

I used to be a small-time GM for a text based game. We occasionally had to make calls like this. Item duplication was an actual occurrence on one memorable occasion. My supervisor ended up handling that case in a very unorthodox way; he looked up the offending character's IP address, traced it back to a person, and called the guy at home while he was in the act of duplicating unique items. I doubt if that would fly in CoH but it was kind of hilarious when it happened back in my old game.

In another case, at one point in the game we released exactly 10 very powerful copies of a certain sword. A few years later we did an inventory of powerful items and found that there were now 15! Needless to say there were questions to be asked (it turned out most of the duplicates had been created by players lying to support staff about having "lost" the sword due to a bug, and the support person doing an insufficient check of item logs before cloning a new copy).

Anyway, anyone who thinks every single account in this game doesn't have a comment log tied to it might want to open their eyes. You will never know what it says about you. And I can almost 100% assure you that if you've got numerous notes showing you to be a problem child that that factors into how support staff interact with you when you make a Petition, and how seriously the staff take your claims about bug reports, etc. If this game is anything like other games, that also controls how actively online GMs monitor your /tells and /chats. GMs may even have actual avatars they can use to go invisible, and mark our accounts with 1-star ratings!

Point being, even if it seems like no one was punished, they could have been. And they may never know it, or why the GMs are so much more savvy about their newest exploits.

Once I19 hits, the ban hammer will hit very hard.

Without knowing the details behind the creation of the Map du Jour I can't comment on whether or not it's on par with dupin' rares.

Regardless, whatever hammer ends up falling should fall on the authors of the map, not players who heeded the siren call of broadcast spam and efficient rewards.

Yeah, it's been over three weeks. But thanks for telling me all about how focused they've been. And after I19, they'll be sooooo focused on I20 that they'll be immune from any criticism then, too! And then there's I21! Man, you just know they'll be too focused on I21 to expect them to fix any glaring exploits in less than a month...
They're immune from any criticism about not fixing a well known exploit over the course of a month because "You don't have their timetable!" You just say "Standard code rant" and then they can get away with anything! Got it. Ma, it must be nice to have such a blanket to hide under. Almost as good as their three week vacations!