Re: Sister Psyche and Manticore

Brilliant. Someone get War Witch in here to read this. Stat!

Sort of.
Here's something I kind of threw together on the idea of what the basic underlings/minions would look like (though they'd need the Longbow chest emblem on the jacket and shirt):



No gun toting Canadians throwing their weight around, just some college kids who enlisted in longbow to help out the impoverished, see new places, get a free t-shirt, and get college credits, maybe a tax break. They didn't come expecting a fight, much less to be killed by villains who would partly be doing it all because their contact says so. (You *******...) And it would be evident in their weapons, things like knives, machetes, hand shovels, flare guns, thrown rocks, thrown knives, scavenged scraps, hatchets, and their own two fists, and in the end, they'd still be woefully prepared to face anything like your villain.

However, longbow's volunteers wouldn't be completely helpless out in the field (just mostly)



These security staff guards are there to help protect the volunteers from riots, and are issued inadequate weaponry and equally inadequate armor (see also: none). They'd be armed with pistols, batons, sub-machine guns, and shotguns intended more as deterrents than to be actually fired with.

to be honest, these things don't quite look like they should, much less have the weaksauce powers their "volunteer"status would indicate.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

Who's trying to rewrite them? People on the forums? Or people in game?

If it's the forums. Well duh, you're basically debating between RP styles.

If it's in game. RP with others?

Fact is, heroes who kill, the Frank Castles, in the comic book universe GO TO JAIL. Or aren't as openly known (which quite frankly doesn't go with the CoH storyline), and get away with it that way.

And those type of heroes don't tend to (notice I said DON'T TEND...that means it's not an absolute...lets get that out of the way now) team with the heroes who would take them in.

Though RPing that in CoH is just silly

There's also those who do the realism factor. Do you really think even with superpowers, people as a whole would go "Yeah, killing is great. Kill everyone." I say this, knowing you've mentioned you want realism, yourself.

Sure there would be a few of course, but as a whole, society tends to frown upon mass killing

Even of criminals.

You say that, but if you can name a group of 'heroes' in real life who don't or haven't killed, I'll eat my shoes. It simply doesn't happen, because an extension of the willingness to use force to protect the public good, is that sometimes you'll need to use more force than a human body can withstand. This is acceptable.

Now, 'mass killing' is hyperbole, but you are right that there are repercussions to various force-bearing agencies utilizing this force, not the least of which is paperwork and bureaucratic review.

Of course, the real point to be taken is that killing is simply a possibility, and that while a person who chooses to solve every problem with death is... inefficient, a person chooses to never solve a problem with death is equally deluded. There are situations where killing nicely solves problems. There are situations where it only causes more.

People on the forums. And there's arguing RP styles and then there's arguing "You're wrong for making your characters like this and you should be ashamed of yourself!" Do I need to summon Golden Girl to provide examples?

I think you're thinking of someone else, as I've gone on the record of wanting precisely the opposite. When you're dealing with a super hero game, realism just gets in the way most of the time. It's rule of cool and some measure of believability that prevails, even if it doesn't always pan out in a real-world setting even with a miracle excuse.

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As far as those who kill people going to jail, I have to disagree. Wanton murderers, yes, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about people given a license to kill. Pick any cartoon or movie not aimed at kids and you have at least a 50/50 chance of seeing the good guys killing lots of bad guys. Take Lethal Weapon, for example - the good guys capped so many bad guys it isn't even funny, especially Mel Gibson in his spaz attack at the end. Or how about something like Starship Troopers? Sure, they didn't kill people, but they didn't think twice about blowing the everloving crap out of living creatures nonetheless.

OK, so those guys were in danger. So let's pick something else. Let's take Fist of the North Star. In that, Kenishiro never had a problem blowing people's heads up (literally) as a matter of course, even though he was almost completely invulnerable. How about Splinter Cell's Sam Fisher? In the words of Yahtzee "You're expect to cap then in the head anyway." And the guy is never in any real danger since since so damn good. How about Julie in Heavy Metal 2000? Never really took much heed at all the humanoid aliens she took out, despite the fact that she never showed any sign of being in real danger. Or how about the Gyver? How many things did that guy kill, despite being almost completely invulnerable? And that's in both the movie and the anime.

How about people who work for the authorities? 007 himself is the man with a licence to kill. Beyond that, we have Major Motoko Kusanagi, whose very first appearance in the Ghost in the Shell movie was acting as an assassin and killing a man. And what do the cops in that movie do when they're trying to stop a car? They shoot it with anti-tank rifles, turning the driver inside into a side of beef. Speaking of anime, how about Striggan? Even when he's in control, Yu still shoots people without much compassion. When the guy he's escorting turns out to be a bad guy and pulls a gun on him, for example, Yu just kicks him out of the car and under the wheels of the chase car behind him.

Or how about Kratos from God of War? Not heroic enough? How about War from Darksiders. He plays the hero. How about the Prince of Persia? The guy starts every game killing honest-to-god living people, and then moves on to killing monsters. Or is that not considered killing? How about Max Payne? He's a cop, isn't he? And he has a body count to rival Commando's John Matrix. Speaking of which - Commando! At the end of the movie, John Matrix has killed pretty much the entire army of a small South American country and he's not arrested. He gets a pat on the back and an offer to go back into government service. And how about that Jack Slate fellow from Dead to Rights? Wasn't he a cop? Hell, I just watched Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade last night, and Indie killed something like a full two platoons of soldiers. He's in danger, you say? What danger was he in when he shot the sword guy in Raiders of the Lost Arc?

We need to stop thinking about just Batman and Superman, because the game's thematic allows for rather a LOT more than just that.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

In a shared comic book universe like this, around every corner lies not only a different player's hero or villain, but each player's own internal consistency (or inconsistency, as the case may be), universes within a universe full of ridiculous contradictions. Tying it all together are physical and immaterial laws which I couldn't possibly care to understand, as I'm having way too much fun to care.

Wish you could all be here, but for those of you stuck out there in a more sensible universe, I'll be sure to send a postcard.

P.S. Excellent post, Samuel_Tow. Sensible, but not too sensible.

You're right, in all those examples they kill.

Now...remember this is primarily a superhero MMO, based on playing a comic book universe superhero/villain.

It even used to say it on the main page of the site. Now it says World's Most Popular Superpowered MMO.

You say stop thinking about just Batman and Superman, so lets go thinking of those other superheroes...

Frank Castle. Wanted vigilante for MURDERING criminals.

Spawn. Had two detectives looking for him.

Heroes who go killing every villain they meet, tend to be wanted crimianls

And nothing I've seen in CoH says any hero goes around killing EVERY villain they meet, and really there are plenty of people who RP it that they do.

If people want to do that, it's fine. I just wouldn't RP with them. Not because I think it's wrong, but because...

1) Like I said, I really don't think the CoH universe even works that way

2) My hero could never stop them. They could be level 1 and my hero could be level 50, and it would never be stopped.

Mind you, and I've also said it before, CoH really isnt setup for long term RP

Do you really think Arachnos is just breaking out Destined Ones 24/7? That the Zig wouldn't be shut down by now?

That Nuclear Power Plant, you think in any longterm RP, that it's being attacked 24/7?

For your list of examples, I'd say there's a big difference between them and the CoH universe. Seeing as how the CoH universe is suppossedly a comic book superhero universe (for paragon), I don't imagine high body counts amongst the heroes.

The mission where the Praetorian Police Department is *extremely disturbed* by the fact that Longbow burns people alive is one of the more amusing scenes in GR

No, I actually DON'T remember. In fact, I don't remember this ever having been stated by anyone in power. This is, and has always been, a comic book INSPIRED game, but developer after developer has said that while they will take ideas from comic books, they will not limit themselves by the limitations of comic books. In other words, "just because it's not like that in comics" isn't a valid argument.

Furthermore, you're assuming American comic books released somewhere between 1950 and 1980. The 90s dork age of comic books, by contrast, saw PLENTY of killing super heroes, like our friend Pitt, the Young Blood and practically everything else Rob Leifeld ever made. And much as people try to deny it, Rob IS a part of American comic book continuity. And then we have comic books which aren't American. Grab almost any Japanese, Chinese or Korean manga, and you'll see that those cultures are far less squeamish about killing people. All of the animes I cited are made after mangas of the same name. Even when they deal with pure, divine, morally just heroes, those still end up taking the lives of their victims.

City of Heroes is also heavily inspired by pulp fiction, film noir and even sci-fi themes, including those concepts in there, as well. Sci-fi themes, however, also include steampunk, cyberpunk, dystopian future and other crapsack world concepts, which in turn include killing as a modus operandi. Furthermore still, a fair few themes seem inspired by Western movies, if not insetting then at least in spirit, and Western heroes like the Man With No Name were all about shooting the bad guys. Hell, the very point of the quickdraw contest is to KILL the other guy before he can KILL you. And even though TriGun plays with the concept of being a gunslinger who doesn't kill, it still displays the harsh reality of an outlaw setting. Characters transplanted from those settings would, in fact, fit right into City of Heroes.

But the most damning evidence that the setting does, in fact, support and promote the killing of bad guys is the fact that at least half the powers heroes get constitute either lethal weapons or deadly effects. Swords, guns, axes, hammers, fire, electricity, radiation, the list goes on. Yes, you CAN make up your own explanation why the ones your character uses aren't as lethal as they really ought to be, and that's fine. I have no problem. However, there really is no ground to claim that my character using the tools the environment provides as those tools are meant to be used does something the environment doesn't support. You don't give the player a gun and enemies to shoot, then claim he should have known he was never supposed to shoot them. Well, some games try to do that, but it's a big enough dick move that most developers know better.

And if that weren't enough, the game gives you no definition of what enemy defeats at your hands actually constitute. You "defeat" enemies, and the game says no more. What that means is up to you to decide. Up to me to decide for myself. If you opt to interpret that as "knocked out and teleported to jail" then that's fine. If I opt to interpret it as "shoot in the head and let corpse fade clean up," then I'm just as in my right. If someone else interprets it into "beat so bad he turns into coins," then... Wait, what?

All I'm saying is the setting supports this. If you want a "comic book only" game, there's already a game that's pretty much that, and pretty much that is the reason I'm not there now. Kill or arrest is down to player interpretation and really not something anyone is "right" about. I don't tell you you're wrong to play a perfect hero in a flawed world, so do me a solid and don't suggest I'm wrong for playing a ruthless hero in a perfect world.

And nothing I've said suggests this, either. Again, I'm not talking about homicidal murderers. I'm not talking about "kill EVERYONE" but more about "not refuse to kill ANYONE." I treat my heroes less like spandex-clad icons of goodness and chastity and more like soldiers in a war against crime and the forces of evil, to borrow a PowerPuff Girls quote. And, no, that doesn't constitute Vigilante, because the way Vigilantes are written in this game is as complete dicks who just want to mess with bad guys.

If I had, just as a random example, a guy who's determined to protect innocent people from criminals and other villains, and that guy sees a robber holding a hostage at gunpoint, my guy will shoot the robber in the head without a second thought. Why? Because he's a crack shot and because all other other options are considerably more dangerous to the hostage. I happen to dislike playing with people's live for the sole sake of not killing the bad guys and REALLY dislike your typical cop-out children's cartoons resort to to prevent this, such as having Wolverine do nothing but kick people in that 90s Fox cartoon.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

As has been pointed out in various ways:

• Why assume she doesn't know?
• Why assume that she doesn't intentionally avoids reading his mind out of respect and love?
• Why assume that didn't read his mind and accept the man she loves for what he is?
• Why assume that if she did ready his mind that she stopped with just his dirty secret and not his own moral context and self analysis of the issue to gain acceptance of his own acceptance?
• Why assume that because he has in the past, that he actively continues to based on positive influences in his life?

Flaw? that has been directly addressed so many times, and rationalized within Batman's logical framework that... no, not really.

As quoted by BackAlleyBraweler...

In a world full of super-powers, arcane mysticism, sci-fi technology, etc....very few people actually die die. The technology to instantly teleport someone and repair any and all damage to their bodies is common in this world. That goes for player characters and NPCs alike. When you riddle someone full of bullets, poke holes in them with your sword, or burn them, it doesn't immediately end their life. It simply incapacitates them. They slip into unconsciousness, and shortly thereafter they're transported away and revived...generally in the Zig.

Seeing as how some of those villains you killed, come back and say hi later, like Frostfire becoming a hero, so obviously you didn't kill him.

Yet there people are, RPing they killed him

Killed Hero One in the Lady Grey TF, yet there he is in i19, specifically said he wasn't.

And tell me when you've ever seen a hostage held at gun point, in this game? Where they're in such a position that the easier body shot isn't available

Unless you're RPing in a closed nit group and not openly with others (ie...sticking within the same 8 people)...saying you killed them, and didn't just incapacitate the enemy doesn't make sense.

You think the Hellions really have millions of members?

Fine by me, really. I don't necessarily need my enemies to die, so much as I need my characters to be free to aim for head shots without feeling terrible about themselves, just as a random example.

And again - I don't restrict myself to JUST what the game represents physically or what's told in specific lore. The only time I'll restrict myself is if the game specifically CONTRADICTS what I want to claim, which it doesn't, for the most part. Yes, FrostFire comes back. Faceless Skull #124123332, on the other hand, doesn't. Or at least I don't think he does...

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Eh, it's just me wanting better defined cannon

Longbow using flamethrowers is written as "OMG NO!" but that Fire/Fire Blaster with the same basic abilities as a flamethrower is seen as a hero.

That's it...time to fix cannon with CoH2!

Yes, and thats called BAD RP, specifically 'God-moding the gameverse'.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Will this do?

Is it in canon to fix cannons in CoH?

That's why I so wish I could be allowed to go through some of the gangs and story arcs of City of with an axe.

but yes, perhaps it would be best left to City of 2 for a better canon, I propose getting Phil Foglio and maybe Alan Moore to help write it, given the alternate history nature of the game's backstory.
Also, Mercedes Lackey, the devs might even be able to pay her with game time. (Unlikely, but hey, I enjoyed night on the Boardwalk and Phoenix and Ashes)

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

What if Cannon doesn't want to be fixed?

Actually, that's mostly player inference, which caused a feedback loop back into the game in offhand comments. The only real actual reference to flamethrowers = bad is in their info descriptions, in that they keep those away from the cameras. That's it. No horrors of war, no moral ambiguity, no questionable ethics. They just don't like to flame people on TV.

The comment about Praetorians being horrified by Longbow is actually the reverse - it's Longbow soldiers talking among each other. Specifically, that the Praetorian police officers are armed mostly with non-lethal weapons "and look at what we're carrying." Which is an amusing community reference, but goes on to ignore the fact that those "non-lethal weapons" were used to break a guy's back, and those same weapons were used by Chief Interrogator Washington to KILL Cleopatra.

Most of the "Longbow are actually evil" rhetoric has always come from players and their interpretations, or re-interpretations as the case may be, of the faction, and often in the face of stated canon. Whenever the game needs a default good guy faction, it defaults to Longbow, even in cases where that seems out of place. You need to spread Outbreak through Paragon City? Longbow are there to oppose you. You need to kidnap an important scientist? Longbow are there to guard him. You want to go blow up a public building? Longbow are trying to stop you. They are the de-facto good guys, and suffer mostly from the simple fact that they are a simple re-dump of the 5th Column Ubermenschen corps for the most part.

That's actually something of a pet peeve of mine, because it keeps being brought up and always with the same arguments, and these are arguments that were invented before my eyes back in the day. Keeping to strict canon definitions, the worst you can find is Longbow traitors like Lt. Demitrovich and that Longbow agent who was stealing from various factions, pinning it to Arachnos then selling on the black market. But they don't represent the faction. And I don't know how "arrogant" Miss Liberty is, since none of that characterisation is in the game, and the Top Cow comics aren't what I'd describe as "good."

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I'm not against better defined canon (where cannon is spelled with a double N), just so long as it isn't REWRITTEN canon which invalidates my characters who were perfectly fine up to that point. In fact, I prefer loosely-defined canon over that, if it gives me more creative freedom. I CERTAINLY don't want another mess like the Origin of Powers nonsense which suddenly tells me who my characters really are and where their powers actually come from. More to point, I don't suddenly want the game to redefine what it means to be a hero and yank my heroes from under me because they didn't fit someone else's definition.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

No, thanks. I'd rather not deal with a game that constantly beats me over the head with "all Americans are Nazis, stupid, crazy, or all three" (that's Moore) or that spends 90% of the game on elaborate, meandering set-up, then tries to cram all the action into the last 1/10 of a level (that's Lackey, based on her novels. Sorry, not a fan).

Sam is correct here, in my opinion. The "Longbow is the most evil of factions" is a player perception first and foremost. The player base has a number of odd perceptions like this, e.g., "Nemesis is a joke"; "Freaks are unrelievedly hilarious," etc., that have gradually filtered back into the game.

okay, I'll respect your opinions, buuut... so that means Foglio's okay, right?

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

Bad habit of hitting that N key twice without thinking

hmm..... the 90s "dork age" of comic books?
Wow, that's a serious Freudian Slip there, eh?