The Changing of the Guard: ALL Established Superheroes Must Go!


Agonus

 

Posted

It's been, what, three generations now since The Age of the Superhero began to dominate comics? Can you honestly see superhero comics continuing to maintain the status quo for another 70 years? Longer? I'm not proposing that superheroes themselves must go. And I certainly recognize that continuity as a concept, as elastic as it is sometimes in different writers' hands, is here to stay.

What I'm suggesting is an intellectual exercise for us, in the name of fun. The premise? All established superheroes must go, giving way to another generation once and for all. For instance, we can retain a Superman (or Superwoman), but Clark Kent should fade into the background. Bruce passes on the mantle for good. Peter hangs up his webs. The Fantastic Four (some or all of them) don't make it back from their latest cosmic adventure. The idea is to just turn all the old established names out to pasture. Sure, this will never happen in the real world (I believe superheroes will eventually just fade away from the public consciousness, but it won't happen for a really loooooong time), but we're playing a game here.

So. Take any established superhero today and replace them. But with who? And possibly why and/or how? Maybe that hero is gone for good, for whatever reason, and doesn't get replaced (not to pick on him, but Aquaman honestly has mostly contrived reasons for leaving his kingdom, and what microscopic percentage of comics stories actually take place there anyway?). And this includes supervillains, as well. And please don't take it personally if your own particular sacred cow is gored (is that the phrase?); this is just a game of imagination. And all our "changes" are meant to stick forever; this isn't a case of change for a couple of years, then the old status quo returns.

I'll go first, with a couple of examples. Note you can of course use the heroes I'm naming, just add your particular twist instead of mine.

Superman reaches an age where his cells no longer can sustain the level of power he's always had. Kal-El still retains the same powers, but obviously, with them weakening further and further over time, he can't keep his place as the world's preeminent superhero. Finally, he decides to publicly declare his intent to retire, with three heroes standing beside him. Supergirl and Superboy retain their names, but Superman names, as his direct replacement, Superwoman--the former Power Girl, who's been getting her power levels gradually boosted over time by the shifting in the laws of magic. The new Superwoman is now more powerful than any other (currently) established hero, and her powers have been shown to be growing for some time. Add in a vulnerability to magic that doesn't leave her dying on the floor, but does keep her from always being the deus ex machina cop-out for lazy writers, and Bob's your uncle.

Bruce Banner's body, not having The Hulk's invulnerability (or levels of regeneration, or whatever he's got these days--I've been out of comics for a few years, although they'll probably never entirely leave me), finally develops cancer. However, this cancer is unlike any the world has ever seen, just as The Hulk was the most unlikely result of a gamma ray bomb explosion. Instead of merely eating its host from the inside out, this "super-cancer" multiplies by passing itself on, much like a virus. (Yes, I know, you medical-types, but this is superhero physics) The cancer is discovered early on, in fact during one of Banner's infrequent incarcerations, but what isn't known until it's too late is that this cancer is contagious. Once people start dying or mutating and then dying (this cancer doesn't create more Hulks; it merely does what cancer does, only a thousandfold), Banner is placed in isolation and an extensive quarantine is established. As Fate would of course have it, one of the attending medical staff accidentally contracts this disease, and it interacts with him/her in a billion-to-one chance, creating a new superhuman. This superhuman retains intelligence, gains Hulk-like abilities otherwise, but the mind becomes twisted, and you have a Hulk-like villain established, to replace The Abomination and The Leader once and for all. Banner dies, and the hunt is on. Not only because we can't have an evil Hulk running around (this new supervillain will have a different name), but because further medical testing reveals that the new villain, while not contagious now, has the potential to become so at any time. Give She-Hulk center stage in her own comic, having her own adventures, with the always-there plot thread of hunting down this new threat.

Okay, maybe weak examples that won't fly in the long term, but I hope you get the gist of where I'm trying to go with this. Now it's your turn, and I'm keen to see what you can come up with.


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-- Live Free or Die Hard (2007)

 

Posted

Well, Batman seems to be doing this already with Batman Inc. Now there'll be a whole franchise of Dark Knights worldwide. That's a pretty interesting idea for an aging Batman, to be honest. I could have seen Spider-man go the Spider-girl route, too. Except not anymore since she's the daughter of Peter and MJ carrying on the Spider-name as she inherited Peter's spider powers. However, since One More Day that part is missing.

An idea that could be interesting is to have most heroes pass on the mantle, but not all. I don't see Wonder Woman quitting any time soon. She's got a lot of years of amazon warrior left in her still. What could happen, however, is that she'd end up as the veteran/mentor role, perhaps not to her liking. If she's been in the business for 50 years and there's a batch of rookie heroes, she's going to have her hands full either way. Can you imagine what training sessions led by Wonder Woman would be like? I get the feeling she'd be one tough drill-master. Plus with the amount of world-threating crossovers and magic she's encountered during her career, shed be a perfect level-headed leader type among the rookies. I mean, what could seriously surprise any of the Big Three in DC anymore? They have practically seen everything, and even things that aren't.

Another fun thought is what about characters that don't have a successor? I'm thinking that Iron Man might not let anyone else carry on the name, since he's had one armor too many stolen/misused/turned sentient. If he's doing anything, he's going the Batman route here. No full armor, but perhaps use some of the tech to aid SHIELD or some other law enforcement group. No new Iron Man, but perhaps an Iron Corps wearing scaled down versions of the Stark Tech. You know, the idiot proof versions. A newbie in a full Iron Man suit is going to cause a lot of trouble, but a mass produced combat armor based off the tech in the Iron Man suit could save some lives. Imagine it as a SWAT team for superpowered incidents.

Then there's the easy ones that already have succession as part of their stories. Like Green Lanterns. There'll be new recipients of the rings. Or like Flash. There's been many Flashes, so maybe there'll be one more? Could also see a new team of X-Men, with the current team either retiring or turning into teachers for the new ones. It is a school they live in, after all. The possibility of a High-School drama X-Men series is there, and I'm sure it could be pulled off with a good writer, even if it goes against a lot of the X-Men spirit. (Then again, X-Men Evolution wasn't that bad...) Wolverine would be an awesome history teacher, mainly because he was there. World War 2? Yeah, he was there. Not that I see Logan as the teaching type... which would make it all the more funny to get him roped into that whole deal.


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Posted

It's actually become kind of ridiculous that they haven't phased out/retired/killed off some of the remaining original JSA-ers. They've at least given Wildcat a successor with the introduction of "Tomcat" in the last couple of years, but the other two old-timers, Jay Garrick and Alan Scott, are still running around without a true namesake due to various handwavey plot contrivances.

Let Jay finally retire for good with his wife Joan, only occasionally making an appearance in an advisory role. We've got Max Mercury back as the mentor and instructor in all things super-speed related, anyway. Have Wally take up Jay's spot on the team, maybe even changing his costume slightly to honor the original Flash and make himself look more Kingdom Come-ish, since that seems to be the direction DC is wanting to take a lot of the JSA in, anyway.

Alan is interesting, in that he actually has not one but two biological heirs, though neither is really inclined or capable of taking up the Green Lantern mantle. I could see him either permanently becoming the steward of the Starheart's power out in space, taking him away from Earthly duties, or being killed off and the Starheart's power fully passing on to Jade and Obsidian. No inheritor of his actual title on the team, though I suppose one of the human members of the GLC could decide to honor his legacy by joining. Alan was really unique following the Silver Age, anyway. I could see Kyle or someone incorporating elements of Alan's oath into theirs as an homage, maybe.


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Posted

I don't honestly know how cancer gets started, but I was thinking here contagious as in catching it like a cold. Maybe not quite that easy, but along that avenue.


M. Bison: For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me...it was Tuesday.
-- Street Fighter (1994)

McClane: Hey, thanks for saving my daughter's life.
Farrell: What was I going to do?
McClane: That's what makes you "that guy."
-- Live Free or Die Hard (2007)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by McNum View Post
An idea that could be interesting is to have most heroes pass on the mantle, but not all. I don't see Wonder Woman quitting any time soon. She's got a lot of years of amazon warrior left in her still. What could happen, however, is that she'd end up as the veteran/mentor role, perhaps not to her liking. If she's been in the business for 50 years and there's a batch of rookie heroes, she's going to have her hands full either way. Can you imagine what training sessions led by Wonder Woman would be like? I get the feeling she'd be one tough drill-master. Plus with the amount of world-threating crossovers and magic she's encountered during her career, shed be a perfect level-headed leader type among the rookies. I mean, what could seriously surprise any of the Big Three in DC anymore? They have practically seen everything, and even things that aren't.
Unless they changed it, Wonder Woman will never grown old, but I could see her stepping aside when all her friends and allies start dying off and retiring and become a teacher ala Kingdom Come ending.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klatteja View Post
I don't honestly know how cancer gets started, but I was thinking here contagious as in catching it like a cold. Maybe not quite that easy, but along that avenue.
Cancer is essentially a mutation in an otherwise normal cell structure. There are various things built into cells to make sure they multiply and die off in a fairly controlled fashion. Cancerous cells have been altered in a way that disrupts this. Essentially you have an cell that doesn't die off when or how it should and is replicating out of control. It keeps replicating copies of itself, at the expense of healthy cells in surrounding tissue.

So cancer isn't something you can really catch like a cold.



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike View Post
Cancer is essentially a mutation in an otherwise normal cell structure. There are various things built into cells to make sure they multiply and die off in a fairly controlled fashion. Cancerous cells have been altered in a way that disrupts this. Essentially you have an cell that doesn't die off when or how it should and is replicating out of control. It keeps replicating copies of itself, at the expense of healthy cells in surrounding tissue.

So cancer isn't something you can really catch like a cold.
Of course, gamma radiation doesn't turn you into a giant green monster either.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike View Post
Cancer is essentially a mutation in an otherwise normal cell structure. There are various things built into cells to make sure they multiply and die off in a fairly controlled fashion. Cancerous cells have been altered in a way that disrupts this. Essentially you have an cell that doesn't die off when or how it should and is replicating out of control. It keeps replicating copies of itself, at the expense of healthy cells in surrounding tissue.

So cancer isn't something you can really catch like a cold.
It is worth noting that some cancers are thought to be caused by viruses. Of course that's a much slower way to kill someone if you're a virus. Cancers generally take years or decades to kill their victims, and a very effective virus can do it in hours or days.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkGob View Post
Of course, gamma radiation doesn't turn you into a giant green monster either.
Still, it would be more of a parasite than a true cancer if it infected other people with its cells. More or less like the alien lifeform in The Thing. Still, a cancer inducing virus is plausible even in the real world.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike View Post
Cancer is essentially a mutation in an otherwise normal cell structure. There are various things built into cells to make sure they multiply and die off in a fairly controlled fashion. Cancerous cells have been altered in a way that disrupts this. Essentially you have an cell that doesn't die off when or how it should and is replicating out of control. It keeps replicating copies of itself, at the expense of healthy cells in surrounding tissue.

So cancer isn't something you can really catch like a cold.
Some of them you can. It's not as *easy* to transmit as the common cold, but some cancers are caused by a transmittable virus.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schismatrix View Post
It is worth noting that some cancers are thought to be caused by viruses. Of course that's a much slower way to kill someone if you're a virus. Cancers generally take years or decades to kill their victims, and a very effective virus can do it in hours or days.
Generally speaking, a virus that kills its host quickly doesn't get to survive very long. It's in the virus' interest to keep the host alive as long as possible in order to act as both incubator and a vector. That's why some diseases have become less virulent over time. The common cold was probably a killer in its earlier incarnation but mutated into a non-lethal form that gets spread easily. During the last swine flu outbreak a few years ago, we saw it mutate quite quickly from a very deadly version to a less lethal version in just a few months.


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Posted

Personally, I think if you were going to do an "All Established Heroes must go" then it would involve getting rid of everyone. She-Hulk and Power Girl, for example, have been around for thirty years or so ... why should they stick around if Superman or Spider-Man are going to retire?

Oddly enough, I think part of the problem with comics nowadays is that the creators are fans of the genre. They've been indoctrinated with the lore and expectations to such a great extent that they have real trouble thinking outside of the box.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkGob View Post
Of course, gamma radiation doesn't turn you into a giant green monster either.
Depending on what happens, maybe a gangrene monster.



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schismatrix View Post
It is worth noting that some cancers are thought to be caused by viruses. Of course that's a much slower way to kill someone if you're a virus. Cancers generally take years or decades to kill their victims, and a very effective virus can do it in hours or days.
Okay, cancers are caused by mutation of what would otherwise be normal, healthy cells. Usually this is caused by "transcription" errors introduced (or induced) during the cellular reproduction (copying) process. And there are myriad possible causes. Including just random chance, as well as genetic predisposition (born with it or born with a condition that leads to it).



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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
Some of them you can. It's not as *easy* to transmit as the common cold, but some cancers are caused by a transmittable virus.
You're talking stuff like human papilloma virus, Hepatitis, HIV, etc. In these cases, acquisition is seldom as simple as occupying the same room as the infected patient. Usually it requires contct with blood or other bodily fluids. STD, blood transfusion, sharing needles, etc. Why? Because these agents aren't really hardy enough to survive without a host. Hell, open air and sufficient sunlight kills HIV ex-vivo.

BIG difference between that and the Flu. Now if we somehow get an airborne version of Hepatitis, or something like an hardy, airborne version of polyomavirus or Epstein-Barr, the human race would be in deep, DEEP dookie.



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
Can't kill the cash cow, either.

That's why alternative universes and such are so much more fun: you can do what you want to these characters and not worry about frying up the goose who lays the golden eggs.
The down side: you can do what you want to these characters.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klatteja View Post
It's been, what, three generations now since The Age of the Superhero began to dominate comics? Can you honestly see superhero comics continuing to maintain the status quo for another 70 years? Longer? I'm not proposing that superheroes themselves must go. And I certainly recognize that continuity as a concept, as elastic as it is sometimes in different writers' hands, is here to stay.

What I'm suggesting is an intellectual exercise for us, in the name of fun. The premise? All established superheroes must go, giving way to another generation once and for all. For instance, we can retain a Superman (or Superwoman), but Clark Kent should fade into the background. Bruce passes on the mantle for good. Peter hangs up his webs. The Fantastic Four (some or all of them) don't make it back from their latest cosmic adventure. The idea is to just turn all the old established names out to pasture. Sure, this will never happen in the real world (I believe superheroes will eventually just fade away from the public consciousness, but it won't happen for a really loooooong time)...
You bring up some interesting points, some I agree with, some I don't.

Look at some recent attempts to shake up the major characters in the Big Two companies.

WARNING! Here there be spoliers!

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Superman was depowered, then given electric powers, and a new blue-skinned look. Then he was split into Electric Superman Red and Electric Superman Blue. And the public reaction was overwhelmingly negative. So Superman goes back to normal. Then 100,000 (or whatever the number was) Kryptonins are freed from Brainiac and put on New Krypton. So we had 100,001 other Kryptonians with Superman's same powerset. Then New Krypton is destroyed, and all the new Kryptonians are killed, so we're back to Clark and Kara.

Spider-Man was implied to have a mystical connection to Spiders. That was swept under the rug and forgotten. Spider-Man was given stingers in his wrists, and that was forgotten even faster. Spider-Man's modern status quo of his marriage to Mary Jane was retconned away, to bring back his earlier single man status quo that today's creators grew up on. Ymmv on that.

However, the Hulk's supporting cast has undergone a major overhaul. He has two sons now, Betty Ross is the Red She-Hulk, General Ross is the Red Hulk, Rick Jones is A-Bomb, and there's a new red-haired She-Hulk.

Batman Inc. will be going full blast here shortly, and we'll see how long that lasts.

And that's just off the top of my head, I'm sure that there are plenty of other examples of The Status Quo is God in superhero comics. The only books that I can think of that aren't held back and are allowed to change and evolve are the X-Men.

And speaking of the X-Men, Wolverine is the "newest" character to break the glass ceiling and become as popular as the big names, and he was created in 1974. Deadpool might make it, if Marvel don't kill interest in the character with a flood of books.

My point is that the majority of modern superhero fans are ridiculously opposed to change. They want the same iconic characters they grew up on, and pitch a fit if anything gets changed, ever. Hell, look at the nerdrage reactions here in regards to Batman's slightly tweaked costume or the Earth One Superman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
Can't kill the cash cow, either.

That's why alternative universes and such are so much more fun: you can do what you want to these characters and not worry about frying up the goose who lays the golden eggs.
That's part of why I like Irredeemable and Incorruptible. There's no looming status quo for the Plutonian and Max Damage to get shunted back to. Anything's possible.

And as far as changing cash cows, it was said for the longest time that the primary reason DC wouldn't change Wonder Woman's costume was because of product licensing. The classic costume is on all the merchandise, and WB/DC were worried people were too stupid to realize it would be the same character if anything looked different.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agonus View Post
That's part of why I like Irredeemable and Incorruptible. There's no looming status quo for the Plutonian and Max Damage to get shunted back to. Anything's possible.
Those are a couple of great books.

I'm surprised they don't get mentioned more often, especially here in the wake of Going Rogue. They're all about the fallen hero and the villain trying to be redeemed.



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Posted

I hate change however I would like to point out we went (in DC's comics) from the JSA to the JLA characters with the alternate Earths idea. This is why I hated the Crisis' series mashing it down. I loved the multiple Earths concept and I loved Elseworlds stories.

So I'd say they can re-boot the series back to the beginning as far as I am concerned but I still want it to be billionaire Bruce Wayne driven to stop crime dressed as a bat and known as Batman and I still want an orphaned Kryptonian Kal-El to grow up in the American midwest developing into Superman.

I wouldn't mind Green Lantern returning to an Alan Scott-like beginning without the Guardians.

Any speedster for Flash would be fine.

They could work out a new Wonder Woman but I really do want some elements of her iconic red, white and blue look because for me she needs it as much as Captain America.

Over in Marvel land I still need my Peter Parker learning by Uncle Ben's death but they could morph it a bit like the movie did.

Iron Man (the movie) showed they could have the same old Tony Stark become Iron Man and make it work.

As I mentioned I need my patriotic Captain America. I do prefer him somehow beginning in WWII and being revived in the modern times because I enjoy his old fashioned personality.

I would love an X-Men reboot without the constant killing of Jean Grey.

Reprints of old comics or online or on DVD and I am content with what I grew up with in the 70s and 80s and paving a way for a new beginning for them all on say Earth 123.


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Posted

I think the X-books are pretty good for rotating in a new crop every now and then. Sure the old staples are still around, but the original five X-men basically went away for awhile to make way for Wolverine, Storm, et. al.

The New Mutants came around a few years later, later Generation X, the New X-men, and more.

One of the reasons I like these books is that Marvel doesn't fall back into Cyclops, Jean, Iceman, Beast and Angel. Of the Marvel books that started in the 60s, these books undergo constant reinvention and new characters are constantly joining the fold.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
Can't kill the cash cow, either.

That's why alternative universes and such are so much more fun: you can do what you want to these characters and not worry about frying up the goose who lays the golden eggs.
I was thinking would be a fun alternate reality story line for DC would be having Darkseid come to earth and wipe out all the heroes and villains. You create this new earth and have a new batch rise from the ashes, and create a series about that. Liberating the earth from Darkseid and his forces after years of occupation, and ultimately the aftermath of it all. That's a story I'd want to do with that.



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Posted

I'd almost rather they did change the old guard, at least in Marvel from Wolverines ridicously stupid regeneration to his lupine origin - when I was into comics, he couldn't regen neural damage and his claws were biomimetic constructs and it was infered that they had flayed Logan and pinned adamantium strips to his bones, and just recently I've read where Iron Man completely stores his armor in his body and when he "dons" his armor, nanobots construct it around him (this being an evolution of the extremis crap), blech...



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Posted

For years now there hasn't been any new innovations in superheroes at ALL! In the early years of Marvel the compagny would try and test new characters and concepts on a regular basis. Some would work... Some would fail drastically. Marvel hasn't done that for ages. Instead they go for yet another spinn-off from a already well-selling known character.

This means they only rehash!

DC does it a bit better... but the old crew will never really leave.

Ofcourse others can be a Batman... But the public will never accept another. New flash (person connected to the Speed Force) is easy... new Green Lanterns are even easier. More people in teh Superman family too. As Kara and al-El are natural aliens that can obviously procreate with humans they will give at least part of their Kryptonean genes and powers to their children.

And the legion of others that are immortal or long lived!? They will be there. If you read ' The Guardians of the Galaxy' series by Marvel comics you get a good idea. Dr. Strange is long lived and can hope to reach 500 years. Thor can easily reach 1000 years. Wonder Woman will be immortal (at least as long as she stays under Aphrodites protection). Wonder Man/Hollywood is an energy being and immortal. The Vision is a Synthesoid and can be reused or still there. Iron Man already had successors. But can also go the Batman Inc. route.

But it all ends up on the same... The Comapnies aren't interested in taking a chance with new characters and loose money... not when they can draw upon money making characters. So the original ones will be made more modern/updated and will always be there.


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