My sig is old. It came from the original forums, and I haven't changed it because it would have to be smaller under the new forums. I just leave it alone, because it has my favorite characters in it. The real point, though is that I have more 50s now than are in that out of date sig.
Every one of them is spec'd fairly ostentatiously with IOs. One even has a PvPIO +3% defense unique. I bought it off-market from someone I know for 2B inf.
What's any of this got to do with anything? It's important, because of how I funded those builds, especially the more recent ones. You see, I neither "marketeer" nor farm with any seriousness. Oh, sure, occasionally run a farm here and there. I'd say, on average, I probably do that two, maybe four hours tops per month. I used to do it a bit more, but I16 satisfied my desire to fight lots of stuff at once in more normal missions. But even before I16, I never did it enough to qualify as "a farmer" - I just don't have many characters that are good at it.
While I use the market daily, I don't "play" the market much at all. I haven't done much real "marketeering" since about I3. It just doesn't entertain me to do so, so my main market interactions are selling what I produce but don't need and buying what I need but didn't produce. You don't have to try to manipulate the market to learn a lot about it. Just buying up a bunch of stuff to craft IOs can teach you valuable lessons.
Despite this lack of marketeering or farming, I have around 12B inf in cash on hand, 7 purpled 50s and 3 SG storage bins worth of high-value enhancements.
You don't have to farm to make money. It's one way to make money and/or get drops. It might be a very accessible way for you. You may not enjoy the other ways, or they may not be accessible to you. None of those things mean that farming is the only way, or even the best way to make money.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Has anyone in the history of this forum who started off raging against market manipulation actually been convinced by the arguments of those who respond? The typical pattern I see is a rant, followed by rebuttals, followed by a reaffirmation of the initial rant, followed by increasingly snarky/condescending rebuttals. Has anyone responded with the equivalent of "Oh, I didn't really think this through and now that I know how the market operates, I see my rage was misplaced"?
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
I can't think of anyone off the top of my head.
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That's seriously impressive. You must be doing *something* different because "7 purpled 50s and 12B in cash" doesn't match the typical profile of even an avid non-farming, non-marketeering player.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Despite this lack of marketeering or farming, I have around 12B inf in cash on hand, 7 purpled 50s and 3 SG storage bins worth of high-value enhancements.
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Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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Yeah... I didn't read most the previous 12 pages (I found a lot of repetitiveness in what I did read), but I am deeply curious. How exactly did you manage to find 20 enhancements that you can slot into a single build that all cost 2 billion or more?|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Yeah. Pretty sure I never used the word evil. in fact, other than my unedited sarcasm, I have tried to be pretty respectful here. Mainly because I believe everyone should be treated with respect. That is because I respect myself. It is my opinion that those who insult, put down, and generally try to make someone else feel less than are themselves suffering from inferiority complexes.
Now, as far as market manipulation goes, I do in fact believe people are manipulating "farming" the market and driving up prices. |
Beyond that, how did you come to the conclusion that only through these enhancements would you be able to play the way you want to play?
Beyond THAT, you state clearly that most of your toons are SO'd out. How do you explain the sudden jump from SO's to "absolutely most expensive build I can find"? I view this as going from a big wheel to a Rolls Royce in terms of an upgrade.
I do have one last question for you if you'd be so kind as to answer it, why do you feel that the prices on these specific enhancements are so high? I noticed in your other thread that you feel it is someone buying all of the stock and then selling it. Do you still feel that way?
These are serious questions and if they were asked and answered before, I apologize. If you have time to answer them, I would appreciate it.
Thanks!
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Don't be silly. No one admits they are wrong on the internet, although I've done it once or twice to see heads 'splode!
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Originally Posted by Sardan
Has anyone in the history of this forum who started off raging against market manipulation actually been convinced by the arguments of those who respond? The typical pattern I see is a rant, followed by rebuttals, followed by a reaffirmation of the initial rant, followed by increasingly snarky/condescending rebuttals. Has anyone responded with the equivalent of "Oh, I didn't really think this through and now that I know how the market operates, I see my rage was misplaced"?
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Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
Quote:
Oh, I'm not sitting around. I do play a lot. (Well, not the last two weeks, but in general.) I spend the vast majority of my time playing my level 50s. I solo a lot on high difficulty settings, so while I'm not farming, I'm producing more drops than your typical non-farmer.|
Originally Posted by Sardan
That's seriously impressive. You must be doing *something* different because "7 purpled 50s and 12B in cash" doesn't match the typical profile of even an avid non-farming, non-marketeering player.
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So you've got someone putting in 2-4 hours of play a night, playing 50s that mostly bootstrapped themselves into rich builds that let them fight lots of stuff and kill it pretty damn fast. Then, once they're built, I continue to put in lots of play time on them, benefiting from their high efficiency for weeks or months of additional play.
Moreover, when I team, I pretty much only team to run TFs or to attend Hamidon raids. I run with people who are big into high-powered play. (Not all build tricked out builds like mine, but if you make sure every team has enough buffs and debuffs, you don't have to.) Thus, I earn lots of merits as well.
My intent wasn't to claim that my results were typical by any stretch of the imagination. But then, I don't think everyone even tries to trick out as many 50s as I do, or cart around barrels of money just because they can. Edit: The intent was to show that there are other ways to make really good money. Diversification works very well for me. It keeps me from getting bored or sick of any one method. I also suspect I'm much more patient than the OP.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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You're not farming a niche. You're taming it and making it more predictable. Before I was working Oblit procs the high sell prices on the IO were in the range of 70M and the lows were around 250k. Folks who were really patient might do better in this system than under my managed niche, but most players I believe prefer a somewhat predictable sales price not one which varies by a factor of 280. After I took over I initially was selling most of my IOs at 50M.....that lasted all of 2 days and it restabilized at a new equilibrium price of 35M per IO. As you can see as the niche matured it dropped to 20M but input prices dropped as well so I kept playing it and making inf. This isn't a case of "farming" the niche by removing supply. All the supply makes it back to the market. I don't delete some IOs to artificially keep prices high or something. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Okay, this is confusing. A good percentage of posters to this thread have been yelling at me to shut up and start making money in the market by finding my own "niche" and farming it.
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You're complaining about how scarce resources are distributed. Since you have a nice build already and just want the last 3-5 shinies to go with it I don't get why you don't understand that these items are genuinely scarce. I just paid 2.5B for the +3 def PvP to slot for my main again. I'd actually sold the one I had slotted on her previously because the price was right 2 issues ago (3.5B).
If on the other hand your concern is for the casual player getting purples....well get out there and make some be for sale....the very best way to lower prices.
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I'm sure we have had posts by people though who said they originally were anti market, but who read stuff here over time and changed their mind. I'm pretty sure some of them posted both before and after conversion.|
Originally Posted by Sardan
Has anyone in the history of this forum who started off raging against market manipulation actually been convinced by the arguments of those who respond? The typical pattern I see is a rant, followed by rebuttals, followed by a reaffirmation of the initial rant, followed by increasingly snarky/condescending rebuttals. Has anyone responded with the equivalent of "Oh, I didn't really think this through and now that I know how the market operates, I see my rage was misplaced"?
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I don't think anyone has ever done that in the same thread, though.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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the original as far as I remember was Outfreakage, who filled the air with dire prophecies prior to I9, continued ranting for a short while and then fell completely silent. When I brought it up in an unrelated thread a while later she admitted the thing worked just like we'd said and her fears were groundless.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I'm sure we have had posts by people though who said they originally were anti market, but who read stuff here over time and changed their mind. I'm pretty sure some of them posted both before and after conversion.
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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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the difficulty slider presents everyone with the opportunity to 'farm' normal content if they choose.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Oh, I'm not sitting around. I do play a lot. (Well, not the last two weeks, but in general.) I spend the vast majority of my time playing my level 50s. I solo a lot on high difficulty settings, so while I'm not farming, I'm producing more drops than your typical non-farmer.
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My fire tank generated more than his share of drops from about 30 on by going +0/x8.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
I have. I raged about the Ebils of teh Market and how there was this giant conspiracy of the uber-rich to manipulate the markets and keep us poor players down. I also raged about how a [now over 63 month] veteran should have had an easier time and have had the priviledge to have some of the new gear. I even worked up an unhealthy lather over not being in the Closed Beta and therefore not having all of the insider info that gave a lot of people the heads up to know what was going on and get insanely rich off of the first few months of the markets.|
Originally Posted by Sardan
Has anyone in the history of this forum who started off raging against market manipulation actually been convinced by the arguments of those who respond? The typical pattern I see is a rant, followed by rebuttals, followed by a reaffirmation of the initial rant, followed by increasingly snarky/condescending rebuttals. Has anyone responded with the equivalent of "Oh, I didn't really think this through and now that I know how the market operates, I see my rage was misplaced"?
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Then one day, knowing that something had to change, I started actually reading the Market Forum and Guides. At first, I wanted to prove that the conspiracy existed and how to manipulate the market to prove it. After several months of struggling against all of the evidence in front of me, I concluded that I was the problem and I changed.
I was wrong. I still don't have the kind of grasp of the mechanics that some people have, but I have been able to combine several aspects of "playing the game" through TFs, Farming, finding an IO or two that I could buy the recipe cheaply, craft and sell the IO for a profit, and even trying to save up Reward Merits and the new A/V-Merits.
Blue Centurion, I can honestly say I know how you feel. I know that right now, you see a conspiracy and a hidden cabal of secretive marketeers who are trying to sacrifice you to the Ebil God of Inf. Relax. No one here is manipulating anything other than their post count.
The Market is a wickedly beautiful mistress and you just need to learn how to negotiate what you want from her. In time, she'll warm up to you more and more.
I have made enough Inf to purple out my namesake, build a scrapper I like with an Uber Expensive Build, and have stockpiled enough gear in my SG Bases to outfit an army with good stuff here and there. You can too.
Good Luck!
Comic and Hero/Villain Culture
Saturday January 29th, 2005 (12:37 PM) ~ Monday August 9th, 2010
Those Who Lived It Will Remember Long after your Ban Hammer Crumbles and the servers flicker dead.
We Will Remember This One Moment In Time! ~ Shadow Ravenwolf
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Yes.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Okay, this is confusing. A good percentage of posters to this thread have been yelling at me to shut up and start making money in the market by finding my own "niche" and farming it.
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But that doesn't drive up prices; it stabilizes them. Farming the market efficiently (as in, to maximize return, not for lulz) improves the stability of the market and drives prices on enhancements down.
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Who do you think you are, Positron?
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
I was wrong. |
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
I never thought there was a cabal or anything, but I originally thought salvage prices made it impractical to IO characters (I mean even just commons and yellows) without a level 50 to fund it. Seriously! I thought this! It turns out I was laughably wrong.
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You can't really corner a market in this game because you can't control the supply.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Okay, this is confusing. A good percentage of posters to this thread have been yelling at me to shut up and start making money in the market by finding my own "niche" and farming it.
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All you can do is have bids out and try to buy as many of the item as you can at your price point and then relist as many as you can at you other price point.
If you buy them too dearly or try to sell them too dearly you will lose money on the venture.
Through experimentation you can discover the sweet spot for both prices. For the most part, that spot exists independent of the flipper. Because you can't control supply, you can't push too far beyond the limits that the market sets through the buyers. If you charge too much someone else will come along and undercut your prices or the buyers will find another source if possible.
The thing with PvP IOs is that they are ULTRA RARE. So even though one cannot control the supply, the supply is so small that the market will bear prices at the inf cap.
When more than one flipper ends up in the same niche, it's the same as having two gas stations across the street from one another.
W/o flippers, the supply of items for sale and the prices of those items would vary more greatly depending on any of the gazillion market forces ---like having many people stop playing farmers and high level tons in favor of trying out the low level Praetoria content.
With the candy cane respecs coming soon on the heels of the freespecs from I19, respec recipes will prob'ly take a hit price-wise and drop to below there usual levels (the supply of respecs will go up and the demand for respec RECIPES will decrease so the price will drop). So, unless too many people try to get in on that niche at once, it may soon be a good time to buy up respec recipes to sell sometime after the winter event is over.
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So you honestly and truly do not know how the market works, yet you are composing a letter to the devs to tell them how to fix it.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Listing order prevails when all other factors are equal. It is a FIFO system.
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Priceless, absolutely priceless.
P.S. I was part of the group that tested the system and PROVED it is not FIFO. I speak from EXPERIENCE and FIRST-HAND KNOWLEDGE when I talk about the market.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Regarding the FIFO system you can see it anytime you buy or sell multiple stacks of the same item. You'll often end up buying/selling a few from each stack rather than doing it one stack at a time.
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Admittedly, the OP was talking about selling and selling blocks are easily verifiable. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Regarding the FIFO system you can see it anytime you buy or sell multiple stacks of the same item. You'll often end up buying/selling a few from each stack rather than doing it one stack at a time.
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Maybe some screen shots of buying and buy blocks?
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
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I so did not need that image in my head before coffee....|
Originally Posted by Organica
/em undercuts all of Fulmens niches.
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As to the topic at hand.
A long time friend, and admittedly a pretty sharp guy, got into the game a while back.
Myself and two others of our circle of friends had been playing for many years at that point. While we had a couple characters with a few IOs here and there and a few million on hand, we were pretty much playing the game market free and having a blast. We felt and were plenty powerful enough etc.
Our newly arrived friend saw the market and having some time during periods where the rest of us were not online, decided to see what it was all about.
In less than 6 months, without a 50th level character and very little research other than on the mechanics of crafting, he crafted his way to a fully IO'ed Stone Tanker and 2 billion on hand. You know his only complaint? No badge for getting to the inf cap.
This was all before his 6th month vet badge. He played time-wise, compared to me, about one quarter of the time I played. He made so much inf and saw how easy it was, pretty much entirely through buying recipes and selling the crafted IO's, that he got BORED with making inf.
If he could do that in less than 6 months of playing and after years of playing others cannot, is the problem the with the system or the player that is unable to make inf?
Now the OP is also railing against the rarity of some IOs as well, trying it seems to make a case that some things are too rare as well. In less than 6 months, my buddy could acquire the most rare items in the game without ever manipulating anything on the market, farming or exploiting, just playing the game by the rules, crafting and selling stuff, spending 10-12 minutes here and there.
From where I sit, everything looks like it's working just fine.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
Yeah just want to add my 2 cents. Purps aren't needed. I know I don't get all worked up over min/maxing or marketing any more. Generally at level 32 I start to slot basic level 35 ios. And add a few Frankenslot powers based on what the game gods drop my way.
I've run every TF, done PvP, and can do Pugs just fine. No need to farm inf, play the market, grind to get the shinies that you dont need.
You are starting to remind me of the guy who works a ton of over time to get the everything Satilite/DVR/DVD Surround Sound, big screen set up but is never at home to watch the damn thing because of all the overtime.
I learned the hard way if I can succeed in the game without Purps then why waste my time grinding for them. I would rather spend that time making a new toon (or 2), relaxing and chatting atlas, or just doing my thing instead of farming.
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Well you won't get a lot of 50s by farming with existing 50s but I have similar experiences to Uber.|
Originally Posted by Sardan
That's seriously impressive. You must be doing *something* different because "7 purpled 50s and 12B in cash" doesn't match the typical profile of even an avid non-farming, non-marketeering player.
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I only purpled two 50s because I don't feel like playing the other 50s. I do play my warshade a lot because it is a ton of fun for me. Somehow my dominator made over a billion selling his drops as he leveled up to 50.
So I am at 15 50s, 2 purpled, and 7 billion inf combined on my characters. I am not patient and I pay "buy it nao" prices and sell on the cheap to clear out my inventory (note for high value items cheap means 70-80% of the going value).
Basically in my experience if you play a lot and buy and sell smart at the market you do well. And random rolls with merits can be the devil but more often than not they out profit deliberate purchasing with them.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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>.>|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Well you won't get a lot of 50s by farming with existing 50s but I have similar experiences to Uber.
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That depends on how many accounts you have. =D
(I actually never do this. No, I'm really serious. But I swear that probably 3/5ths of the people I hang with in game have two accounts or more, and farming with a lowbie in the mish on the other account is a health part of many a character's progress to 50.)
</threadjack>
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| I am not patient and I pay "buy it nao" prices and sell on the cheap to clear out my inventory (note for high value items cheap means 70-80% of the going value). |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I suppose there is that. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
>.>
That depends on how many accounts you have. =D (I actually never do this. No, I'm really serious. But I swear that probably 3/5ths of the people I hang with in game have two accounts or more, and farming with a lowbie in the mish on the other account is a health part of many a character's progress to 50.) </threadjack> |
I have 3 accounts but like you I never bothered with PLing another to 50 that way. I will level pact an AT I don't want to play at the lower levels with one I love to drag out like masterminds, brutes, and scrappers.
See, I do play similar to you.
I wouldn't have multiple accounts in the first place if we had 36 slots per server in the beginning but now I don't want to let the characters on the other 2 accounts go.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
/em undercuts all of Fulmens niches.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid