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The show you are describing, with such a limited scope that they never address the "big picture" in any form or fashion, would probably only interest me for few episodes tops. I don't really need a "simulation" of a down in the trenches post-ZA reality TV show. I'd rather have something with a plot that would make me want to watch it past the initial "cool zombie shock" phase.
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Originally Posted by Dark One
When your day consists of just trying to get enough to eat, staying alive, in a fugue/shock state most likely, and probably existing on very little sleep, do you really think they are going spend time ruminating on what caused it?
I'd tend to think not, especially when your group just put down 15 of the buggers that day. You aren't going to care what caused it, you are only going to care about what you can do to stay alive another day. Look at them, they are camping out and not really secure. A herd coming in could wipe them out any day. |
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I have to admit perhaps it is just an issue with this group of survivors. I am going to want to get somewhere defensible with a food and water supply perhaps even an island of sorts.|
Originally Posted by Dark One
When your day consists of just trying to get enough to eat, staying alive, in a fugue/shock state most likely, and probably existing on very little sleep, do you really think they are going spend time ruminating on what caused it?
I'd tend to think not, especially when your group just put down 15 of the buggers that day. You aren't going to care what caused it, you are only going to care about what you can do to stay alive another day. Look at them, they are camping out and not really secure. A herd coming in could wipe them out any day. |
And I am going to want there to be "war councils" on what the plans are and what are we going to do. I want a long term survival plan.
I am not going to camp near an overrun city for long.
Also where are the archers? If guns make noise to draw in more zombies, I am getting bows and arrows ASAP and using molotov cocktails on them.
I'm not bringing these up as a dismissive criticism of the show because it is very good but these are the things that occur to me when watching it. But at some point some of them need to start acting like soldiers would and not be like the walking dead themselves.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
I was expecting the father/son duo to bring Rick up to speed but I can understand Rick having more pressing business like tracking down his wife and son, plus the shock of what seemed to have happened, post coma haze, etc. never asked (on camera at least).
But at some point he has to ask. He's the viewers proxy. Just general things like when did it start and how fast society disintegrated. I don't need a WWZ recap. Did people wake up one morning with the dead wandering the street? Did it start somewhere and spread? Even Zombieland gave us a 10 second explanation of what Columbus knew.
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Personally, I don't really think its necessary for these characters to care about how it happened. They're just regular people, with regular jobs, now trying to survive day to day.
Its apparent that none of them are survivalists. Their near the city, but far enough to be away from herds of walkers. They keep a look out, presuming that they're aware that there could be an occasional stray. They camped near a city because, 1. it was convenient, they went there initially because they were told too.
2. They're near a fresh water supply. 3. They can get too and from the city to forage for food and supplies.
I'm certain that there is at least one other reason why they are staying near a large city. Readers of the series will know why.
It's also inferred that however this event occurred, it spread quickly. So fast that in the time that Rick was in the hospital, the majority of the population between where he was, and a major city was all but completely zombified or eaten. Such an occurrence is truly epic in scope. It happened quickly and recently. They characters haven't had time to wonder how it started, so the viewers don't need to know about it either.
Would it be nice to know? Sure. But it's not necessary, especially if finding out how it happened, how it works, etc... is part of the larger story. Then, details will have to come out slowly, clues, pieces to a puzzle, to lead the viewers along with the characters in such a discovery.
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Oh I'm right there with you on that. There are parts of the comic that I've thought, "Man if I had been there that would have gone FAR better for the "good" guys." I can't go into details without major spoilers, but yeah, there have been points where I wanted to scream at the characters for not being more tactical in their thinking and actions.
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
I'm not bringing these up as a dismissive criticism of the show because it is very good but these are the things that occur to me when watching it. But at some point some of them need to start acting like soldiers would and not be like the walking dead themselves.
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Quote:
I am always thinking about this quandry. About how, us, in the audience, think that sometimes we know better or we say they would do things differently, smarter, than the characters.|
Originally Posted by sleestack
Oh I'm right there with you on that. There are parts of the comic that I've thought, "Man if I had been there that would have gone FAR better for the "good" guys." I can't go into details without major spoilers, but yeah, there have been points where I wanted to scream at the characters for not being more tactical in their thinking and actions.
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My dilemma in this thinking is it caused by us simply knowing better or us being really removed from the action, being able to think about the situation from this detached viewpoint? That is, if we were truly in the thick of it would our brains even process things the same way?
This complaint about characters not acting in the "right" way came up a lot for Lost, regarding why don't the characters ask more questions? I truly think that the characters, for at least the first 3 seasons, didn't care about what the Smoke Monster was or Dharma. They just wanted off the Island. The reason why they didn't ask more questions because they were focused on getting off the Island and didn't care about anything else. "Out of sight, out of mind" in a way.
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I'm just curious if you live in America. Because if you do, then surely you know better than to say anyone can get valid information via the news. More like innuendo and rumor, with precious little fact.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Quote:
But I also still don't buy the idea of civilization collapsing instantaneously either. The only way these people would not know ANYTHING about it is if it happened in the wink of an eye. That's a stupid impossibility unless you want to assume things changed via magic or maybe a time travel accident. Do we have any evidence of that in this show?  By all reasonable assumptions the Zombie Apocalypse had to have taken at least several days for things to go from "normal" to "all F'd up". Consider what we saw in the first episode: as Rick stumbled out of the hospital he saw a make-shift morgue where dozens of bodies had been laid out in the apparent chaos of the last few days. Just beyond the morgue he saw a military staging area with supplies and an army helicopter. Obviously there was a point as things were falling apart that the government tried to contain and handle the crisis. So it's very safe to speculate that there was a period of time, even if that period only lasted a few days, where things were getting bad but there was still enough people and infrastructure around so that news about what was happening would have been available. Our characters might not ever know that "Scientist Smith spilled the super-zombie juice in a government lab 23.5 miles west of Denver, Colorado" but they would have certainly have heard that "Denver was one of the first major cities to fall to zombies". Please consider the "realities" of what would happen in this situation. People would have SOME clue as to what happened - and that's all I'm asking for from this show. |
Even if Denver was overrun first, some news organizations might very well downplay it at the request of the government, and some would actually fabricate stories from whole cloth to fit their narrative. CBS' 60 Minutes has been guilty of this in the past, and Fox News seems to have it as their guiding principle.
If you'll recall after 9/11 there was a lockdown on everything from airline travel to information for nearly two weeks. Even months later there was precious little "official" information. Same thing with the aftermath of hurricanes Katrina and Rita. How many Americans even *know* about hurricane Rita? Rita was the 4th most powerful hurricane ever recorded, yet Katrina (the 6th most powerful) gets all the press because it wrecked New Orleans. If hurricane after hurricane hammered all the way across the US, actual information would be harder and harder to come by with each passing day. Heck, I've seen arguments break out between people who completely disagreed with what they had both just witnessed right before their eyes, nevermind just getting information second- and third-hand.
In the first episode they said it's been about a month since the initial outbreak. One month to go from everything's hunky-dory to complete devastation of at least one major metropolis, with the implication that it's everywhere. So the military involvement and government intervention failed utterly in just a couple weeks. That's not a lot of time to collate and disseminate factual information. Official news blackout, rumors abounding, people caught up in the outbreak scrambling to survive... yeah, I'm totally fine with these characters not knowing very much at all.
Plus, when we see them, they are actively trying to survive. I've been in two tornado outbreaks and a major ice storm and I have to say during those occasions there was not a lot of discussion not pertaining to the matter at hand. During the ice storm a couple years ago, no one here had power, cable or internet, so we had no idea what was going on in the rest of the world for a number of days. Everything on the radio was information about where to get food or shelter if you needed it, repeated for days. The closer you are to the epicenter of something like that, the less you know. Only distance and time allow you to sort out what you've heard and get some semblance of truth. Maybe once they get to a resting spot Rick can ask questions, but to not hear anything so far is not a big deal. Even once he does get to ask those questions, people not really knowing what happened is completely understandable.
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Quote:
I can give an example from my own life which might help illustrate this (and I use it in my own writing, as well):|
Originally Posted by BafflingBeerMan
Quote:
My dilemma in this thinking is it caused by us simply knowing better or us being really removed from the action, being able to think about the situation from this detached viewpoint? That is, if we were truly in the thick of it would our brains even process things the same way? This complaint about characters not acting in the "right" way came up a lot for Lost, regarding why don't the characters ask more questions? I truly think that the characters, for at least the first 3 seasons, didn't care about what the Smoke Monster was or Dharma. They just wanted off the Island. The reason why they didn't ask more questions because they were focused on getting off the Island and didn't care about anything else. "Out of sight, out of mind" in a way. |
My mom is very smart, as in genius-level IQ. She recently retired as a nurse with a number of accolades to her credit. She was head of the ER and set up nursing facilities for a number of corporations before moving over to ICU and Recovery to finish out her career. In the heat of the moment she somehow recalls voluminous amounts of information about drugs and their interactions and how they affect the body and potentiate each other. When I volunteered in the ER, I actually saw her put her hands into someone's abdomen and save his life, something most doctors would be hard-pressed to duplicate. After 40-plus years in this profession, she's seen it all from gunshot wounds to car accidents to explosion victims to race riots to taking care of Sugar Ray Leonard after he got injured in a fight.
A couple of years ago my dad overworked himself to the point of exhaustion. My mother, the experienced, flinty-eyed, combat-tested professional caregiver who's been there, done that, and bagged the bloody tee shirt in a hazardous biowaste bag before calling lunch, COMPLETELY freaked out when he passed out cold. I mean, she lost her **** in a massive way that stunned me to silence.
Later she said that it's different when it's your own family members in trouble; she couldn't be dispassionate despite decades of experience and training.
So yeah, I think a lot of this, "I woulda done it better" stuff is just armchair quarterbacking.
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I can't imagine anyone in the WD world would know what happened, still be alive and have the fortune of meeting up with our group of characters. A complete collapse of society in under 2 months? I doubt even those in charge knew what happened if it came from a natural source. Most likely the news reports were declaring it some type of viral infection or something, and I bet every station had its own story, then all the nuts on the internet declaring everything from the End Times to Alien Plots to the final act of the Black Helicopters.
For me, the only way I could imagine it happening is if it started as a virus, with mild symptoms but extremely contagious. It sweeps around the world a few times, however it primes people to "come back" if they die. If it is only transmitted through bites, it'd be contained extremely fast and there is NO way these shamblin folks could walk and bite fast enough
Now, if every accident victim, heart attack victim, stroke victim... etc started coming back it might be enough to disrupt the social order (hospitals, our place of safety and recovery, get VERY dangerous.. and some very skilled individuals might be the first to go). People start to starve and run out of supplies, the lights go out as those in charge of the power stations turn or get the heck out of dodge... and people begin to fight each other. Which causes more to die... and more to come back. And a bad bad cycle starts up. Just my guess if I had been there
I'm sure each character on Walking Dead has heard a different story on the true root of the dead coming back... and I doubt any of them have it right.
Quote:
Without saying too much, all I can say is "Wait for it..". This is all just set up at the moment. I don't know if they'll get to it this season or not though. Only four more episodes left and at the rate they are going, they won't make it there.|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
I have to admit perhaps it is just an issue with this group of survivors. I am going to want to get somewhere defensible with a food and water supply perhaps even an island of sorts.
And I am going to want there to be "war councils" on what the plans are and what are we going to do. I want a long term survival plan. I am not going to camp near an overrun city for long. Also where are the archers? If guns make noise to draw in more zombies, I am getting bows and arrows ASAP and using molotov cocktails on them. I'm not bringing these up as a dismissive criticism of the show because it is very good but these are the things that occur to me when watching it. But at some point some of them need to start acting like soldiers would and not be like the walking dead themselves. |
Molotovs? Sorry bud, I don't want you anywhere near my zombie survival group.
All you end up with then is a flaming ambulatory zombie until the brain cooks.Quote:
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Originally Posted by Furio
Horde. Cows and horses travel in herds...Zombies do hordes
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ironik
During the ice storm a couple years ago, no one here had power, cable or internet, so we had no idea what was going on in the rest of the world for a number of days.
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If it's a biblical "When there's no more room in Hades, the dead will walk the Earth" type outbreak then I put the timetable for full scale apocalypse at right about 6 to 8 hours tops.
Lets say the switch gets flipped at 12:00pm and from that point on anyone that dies, returns.
In as little as 30 seconds you'll begin to get secondary infections.
Paramedics being bitten, nurses or coroners, morticians. Anyone close to a recently deceased will be turned within minutes.
These 'fresh kills' will then stumble out into the unaware populus and begin spreading the infection. So within as little as 2 minutes (given the time to die and return as a variable) you'd have not only the legitimate deaths returning, but also the victims.
This is the classic snowball affect.
Hospitals and Police Departments, being unaware, will begin attempting to treat the victims. Hearing tales of crazed people. Cops will also be responding to 911 calls. These 2 vital components of civilization will be the 1st to fall. Within hours.
News of this will be sporadic at best. Hospitals and PD's will alert the media only after containing the situation, so it's left to Eyewitness type news to get the word out.
By 2pm CNN and the like will be running a ticker at the bottom of the latest Paris Hilton scandel about crazed protestors at St. Mercy in Chicago. The 1st victims will be returning to work/daily routine with bandaged bites unaware that they are infected.
4 hours later the news networks will be scrambling for info due to increasing confusion and panic on the streets. The original victims that returned to work will succumb to injuries and turn, thus increasing the speed of the apocalypse and taking most stations off the air.
Public transportaion will be out of service by now and the 1st signs that something is really, really wrong will become evident. Zombies will be openly visible in most urban settings within 4 hours, with entire city blocks surrounding the hospitals and morgues being already overrun. News will still be sporadic at best, with the major networks unwilling to report that
"The dead are returning to life and attacking the living" without having someone at the CDC or likewise institution to verify the info, the only information they will be reporting will be the obvious outbreak of violence.
6 hours in and the world as you knew it is gone.
So lets say that at 12 Noon you were at Pizza Hut having lunch. The news is on a tv in the corner, but your not paying attention as it's just business as usual. You then get in your car and swing by the office real quick.
Stepping in to grab your breifcase you notice that everything is perfectly normal. You then leave and listen to your Ipod on the way home.
You notice an unusual amount of ambulances on your drive but only give it a passing thought as your mind returns to thinking about the new episode of Dancing that night.
You arrive home at 2pm and go about your routine. Turning on the news in the background as you load up COH on your PC. You solo a few radio missions while listening to the news go on and on about Paris's rehab.
At 3pm breaking news (during a commercial break) reports that an alarming number of people are showing signs of violent tendencies, or some other psycho-babble, with promises of more news to follow before being returned to the already in progress (Taped) news show.
You quickly write it off as just another one of those 'Grab your attention only to dissappoint' blurbs and return to your gaming.
At 5 your kids get dropped off by the carpool and you spend the next hour hearing them talk about their day and getting them started on homework.
At 6pm your wife stumbles in the door looking like a trainwreck. She has a large band-aid on her arm that she tells you was because one of her co-workers got sick and scratched her when he sneezed. She's tired and has a bit of a headache so you start getting dinner ready while she goes to rest. When she comes stumbling into the living room an hour later, half dressed and moaning softly...
So, if it's a biblical type outbreak where the dead automatically return regardless. Then 8 hours in and we're all toast.
Those lucky few who manage to survive that most crucial 1st day would have very little in the way of legitimate information. As there simply wouldn't be enough time to report it, even in our 24/7 news world.
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So....if we are going on the assumption that this guy had been in a coma for over a month wouldnt he have a catheter? Any guy that has had one knows that this is not something to be taken lightly.....
Personally, the whole coma and coming to, to find that the world has been overrun by zombies as a plot device is getting a bit over played IMO.....
In regards to the show....that poor horse......
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That's basically the same progression of news from the original Night of the Living Dead. |
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
...
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The movie runs from the middle of the afternoon to the next morning or afternoon. The first news reports were about a murder epidemic and only later about the dead walking with instructions about immediately burning the recently dead and destroy the brain of those who were already up and about.
Of course after 40 years the idea of forming hunting parties to go tag all the local walkers in your community would be unheard of today. We would be glued to the TV or radio and expect the "authorities" to handle it.
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Quote:
I know what caused the zombies- in there world the Man in Black got off the Island.
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Originally Posted by BafflingBeerMan
Obviously, the zombie apocalypse was caused by a golden light in a cave. That's a good explanation for weird things, right?
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Quote:
I used to frequent one of the official boards for Lost (Oceanic815.com, I believe) and before Season 2, they inserted some Easter Eggs onto the site: two fake script pages from the S2 premiere.|
Originally Posted by Optimus_Dex
I know what caused the zombies- in there world the Man in Black got off the Island.
|
One of them had Jack running out of the jungle after opening the Hatch only to be chased by...himself.
The other page? Zombie Walt (with a suggestion for Zombie Vincent)
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*squeeeeeee!*
I've been recommending this show to my friends like crazy. 
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Quote:
The problem is we know what natural disasters are and that the problems caused by them are a temporary problem. A zombie apocalypse would be completely unique and no sign of military forces coming to the rescue would make only focusing on day to day survival a fool's errand. You would have to come up with a long term survival plan or you would not survive. At least one person ought to think of that and mention it.|
Originally Posted by Ironik
I'm just curious if you live in America. Because if you do, then surely you know better than to say anyone can get valid information via the news. More like innuendo and rumor, with precious little fact.
Even if Denver was overrun first, some news organizations might very well downplay it at the request of the government, and some would actually fabricate stories from whole cloth to fit their narrative. CBS' 60 Minutes has been guilty of this in the past, and Fox News seems to have it as their guiding principle. If you'll recall after 9/11 there was a lockdown on everything from airline travel to information for nearly two weeks. Even months later there was precious little "official" information. Same thing with the aftermath of hurricanes Katrina and Rita. How many Americans even *know* about hurricane Rita? Rita was the 4th most powerful hurricane ever recorded, yet Katrina (the 6th most powerful) gets all the press because it wrecked New Orleans. If hurricane after hurricane hammered all the way across the US, actual information would be harder and harder to come by with each passing day. Heck, I've seen arguments break out between people who completely disagreed with what they had both just witnessed right before their eyes, nevermind just getting information second- and third-hand. In the first episode they said it's been about a month since the initial outbreak. One month to go from everything's hunky-dory to complete devastation of at least one major metropolis, with the implication that it's everywhere. So the military involvement and government intervention failed utterly in just a couple weeks. That's not a lot of time to collate and disseminate factual information. Official news blackout, rumors abounding, people caught up in the outbreak scrambling to survive... yeah, I'm totally fine with these characters not knowing very much at all. Plus, when we see them, they are actively trying to survive. I've been in two tornado outbreaks and a major ice storm and I have to say during those occasions there was not a lot of discussion not pertaining to the matter at hand. During the ice storm a couple years ago, no one here had power, cable or internet, so we had no idea what was going on in the rest of the world for a number of days. Everything on the radio was information about where to get food or shelter if you needed it, repeated for days. The closer you are to the epicenter of something like that, the less you know. Only distance and time allow you to sort out what you've heard and get some semblance of truth. Maybe once they get to a resting spot Rick can ask questions, but to not hear anything so far is not a big deal. Even once he does get to ask those questions, people not really knowing what happened is completely understandable. |
This is not a natural disaster so it ought to elicit conversations at some level.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
I never planned on lobbing them indiscriminately. |
Originally Posted by Dark One
Without saying too much, all I can say is "Wait for it..". This is all just set up at the moment. I don't know if they'll get to it this season or not though. Only four more episodes left and at the rate they are going, they won't make it there.
Molotovs? Sorry bud, I don't want you anywhere near my zombie survival group. All you end up with then is a flaming ambulatory zombie until the brain cooks. |
I've played way too many strategy games to do that. Though I'd probably end up acting like Tallahassee from Zombieland until one (or more) of the walkers got me.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
Walking Dead has had me thinking about Lost too.|
Originally Posted by BafflingBeerMan
I am always thinking about this quandry. About how, us, in the audience, think that sometimes we know better or we say they would do things differently, smarter, than the characters.
My dilemma in this thinking is it caused by us simply knowing better or us being really removed from the action, being able to think about the situation from this detached viewpoint? That is, if we were truly in the thick of it would our brains even process things the same way? This complaint about characters not acting in the "right" way came up a lot for Lost, regarding why don't the characters ask more questions? I truly think that the characters, for at least the first 3 seasons, didn't care about what the Smoke Monster was or Dharma. They just wanted off the Island. The reason why they didn't ask more questions because they were focused on getting off the Island and didn't care about anything else. "Out of sight, out of mind" in a way. |
But again for a long time the survivors had the expectation that they were being searched for and would eventually get rescued. With a full out zombie apocalypse you would have to know that isn't going to happen. You have to save yourselves or you're lunch eventually.
I compare this to Independence Day. After the first round of attacks you might hope the military could deal with the aliens but it would be prudent to leave the cities that remained and prepare for a long period of roughing it. But if it continued you'd have to find somewhere to survive undetected by them.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
We're ready for the zombie apocalypse because we've *practiced* it. |
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
I never planned on lobbing them indiscriminately.
I've played way too many strategy games to do that. |
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Quote:
Well we need to be careful lest we run afoul the no talking about other video games rule but yep. Unfortunately I suspect many of us would be too busy playing online to notice until a horde of zombies had us surrounded.
|
Originally Posted by Ironik
We're ready for the zombie apocalypse because we've *practiced* it.
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total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
Honestly... I went out into the public yesterday and I am not convinced that it hasn't already happened...|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Well we need to be careful lest we run afoul the no talking about other video games rule but yep. Unfortunately I suspect many of us would be too busy playing online to notice until a horde of zombies had us surrounded.
|
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Quote:
They even learned how to drive. |
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Honestly... I went out into the public yesterday and I am not convinced that it hasn't already happened...
|
I love this show though. I haven't been this interested in a show since I started watching Lost on Netflix's watch instantly option. As I die waiting either to get the Season 6 discs or for it to get to watch instantly too.
I suppose Breaking Bad will be kicking in soon when Walking Dead finishes its first season.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Just under six hours until the third episode begins! Wakey wakey!
It doesn't really bother me not knowing the whys and wherefores - I laughed at the end of Shaun of the Dead when he changed the channel right as the newscaster was going to explain what caused the zombie outbreak. The character didn't want to see it because it was all anyone talked about, and he was tired of it.
Perhaps people aren't talking about it because when we enter the story it's already several weeks after the start of the zombies. They may have already had all of those discussions and bare survival has taken precedence over something that ultimately is of no consequence if you can't do anything about it.
I don't have a problem with you wanting to see them discuss how it all got started. I just don't think it's necessary like you do, and I actually think it might detract from the point of the show. It's not about the zombies or how it all got started, it's about the survivors and how they deal with this ongoing, worldwide, slow-motion disaster of epic proportions.
How are the survivors going to ultimately deal with this ongoing, worldwide, slow-motion disaster of epic proportions if they don't know everything they can about the zombies that caused it? I think the idea of seeing how people react to a "Lord of the Flies" situation without sooner or later establishing how they got to be in that situation in the first place ruins the impact of the story that's trying to be told.
Obviously this story is coming from Rick's point of view of being "late to the party" as far as learning about the zombies. But we as an audience are going to have to be brought up to speed on them just like he's going to have to. If no one around him tells him what's going on how are we going to find out?
P.S. Shawn turned off the news cast because he, like the audience, had already lived through the entire zombie outbreak from beginning to end. He (and we) didn't need a recap. On the other hand we didn't get to see the beginning of this in this TV show so we, in effect, do need to see the equivalent of that "news cast" to know the full story. Apples and Oranges.
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