Soloability...The Movement Forward.
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2010-10-06 07:29 in Suggestions and Ideas
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only thing I can say to this is|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
<QR>
Reminder to those who take the position that this is an MMO therefore you have to team: there are times when teaming or building a team of sufficient size is not an option unless you are on Freedom or Virtue. Incarnate stuff is level 50 only. The more level 50s required to do it the fewer the people who will be able to participate in it and enjoy it. You are welcome to hold the position of "too bad you need to team to get to do content" but that boils down to telling some people they may as well unsub which is not healthy to us all in the long run. Also, almost all content is far easier on teams than it is soloing unless your teammates are complete morons. If anything stuff like the Incarnate stuff is less meaningful to team players than to soloists. And ultimately in the end I don't care if someone wants to try to solo everything including the Hamidon. That does not negatively impact my gameplay. So I am all for lowering all things to being able to start solo even if it will not be possible for anyone to solo it. Let's face it, if you have to force someone to team with you to accomplish something how much enjoyment are you and they really getting from being together to do it? |
AMEN !!
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I just stumbled across that the other day and it was great. would love to see more of the TFs that I don't ever have time to do in one sitting available that way.
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
You can do the old Posi TF solo in Ouroboros.
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one small difference between solo and forced teaming. when solo, I can spread it out over 2 or 3 days of playing time. because of other real life constraints, I can seldom play for more than an hour or two at a time. other than some speed run teams, which I don't find that much fun as I would like to actually see the TF/SF especially the first time through, I cannot find a team, or create one, and complete it in one sitting.|
Originally Posted by Torrynt
No, you choose not to run team based content for the rest of the year. We are talking about TF/SF based content. You already have the time. That is not your barrier to entry. Don't tell me you want to run them solo and have time for that but can only manage 1-2 a year if you are forced to team. That's ludicrous.
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so yes, for some of us, it is a barrier to entry.
While I'm okay with TFs being setup to be started solo, I can't say I'm for any of the AVs being reduced to EB status in said TFs/SFs.
You want to run it solo, fine, but know that yes there is an AV, and yes, you will have to beat said AV to complete the TF.
Incarnate system seems to be setup for lots of teaming, I'm fine with this. If someone figures out how to solo it all, good for them.
Most of the content is soloable, however. So I wouldn't say the game is setup up with a bias towards teaming.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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It's called Oro TFs! Though is the old Posi TF even considered a TF now? I wouldn't think so, with it's merits being reduced to that of a story arc.
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Originally Posted by kendo
I just stumbled across that the other day and it was great. would love to see more of the TFs that I don't ever have time to do in one sitting available that way.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
If you solo the Oro Posi... it's not the same as the original. The missions are the same but the TF set for one person is cake.
I have solo'd several of the TFs in the game. For sure I solo'd Posi, Synapse, Sister, Manti, Respec trials, and a few more. Yes, I needed warburg nukes and pets for a few of the AVs. I think making TFs with the ability to start solo is fine. I do think they would have to solo the same TFs a team would take on. If you want a challenge... sure. If you want it easy... go back to WoW!!!
Check out this!!!! http://www.youtube.com/user/LastRoninCoH/featured
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I found the original Posi easier with smaller teams. Given the choice between a team of 4 or 8, I'd always take the four. Once you get a large team going you ended up with a lot of Ruin Mages and big mobs with lots of -tohit.
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Originally Posted by LAST_RONIN
If you solo the Oro Posi... it's not the same as the original. The missions are the same but the TF set for one person is cake.
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I always found that fun |
Originally Posted by ketch
I found the original Posi easier with smaller teams. Given the choice between a team of 4 or 8, I'd always take the four. Once you get a large team going you ended up with a lot of Ruin Mages and big mobs with lots of -tohit.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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yes, please. this would be a good compromise. for the majority of characters, this would still encourage (require) teaming to make it through. but would allow others to at least attempt to solo it
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
For what it's worth, I'm no longer opposed to removing the "teamgate" to TFs.
Here's my proposition: Change the minimum team size into a "minimum spawn size." Much like Bill's view, it doesn't prevent soloing, but it sure as hell discourages it. |
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the settings are different but I believe the missions are the same. so I got to see the content and it did reward the Positron's Ally badge. so I now have 1 towards the completion of the all TFs accolade
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Originally Posted by BrandX
It's called Oro TFs! Though is the old Posi TF even considered a TF now? I wouldn't think so, with it's merits being reduced to that of a story arc.
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I have read the thread to this point and honestly think a decent middle ground would be offering them as unlocks at level 50 in Oroborous with minimum spawn sizes. Having it in Oroborous would mitigate some of the potential reduction in teaming and Oro is a place where soloists are likely familiar and comfortable. I would also like the DEVs to set the minimim spawn sizes and get an idea for what they envision as the minimum intended team size for each Task Force. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
For what it's worth, I'm no longer opposed to removing the "teamgate" to TFs.
Here's my proposition: Change the minimum team size into a "minimum spawn size." Much like Bill's view, it doesn't prevent soloing, but it sure as hell discourages it. |
Now I realize that this will create issues with the idiots ranting that they cannot complete the Oro STF on their FF defender because the 'mobs keeping showing up hugeee'. Also, there may be some reduction of people looking to team in a way that the DEVs pretty clearly see as the kind of teaming they intend adn would like to promote. That potential alone may prevent it happening, but this seems like a decent compromise.
Cheers
[B] GUARDIAN 50s:[/B] [B]Tank[/B]: Ice/Fire, Fire/Fire, DA/SS, Inv/WM, SD/Elec...[B]Scrap[/B]: BS/Reg, Spin/DA, DM/SD, Fire/WP, Claws/SR....[B]Troller[/B]: Ill/Rad, Fire/Kin...[B]Blaster[/B]: Fire/EM....[B]Defender[/B]: D3...[B]Brute[/B]: Elm/ElA...[B]EPIC[/B]: Widow, PB, Crab...CURRENTLY: 45 Stone/Stone Tank...38 AR/Rad Corr...21 Ice^3 Dom
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Well said. I agree with this. |
Originally Posted by LAST_RONIN
I think making TFs with the ability to start solo is fine. I do think they would have to solo the same TFs a team would take on. If you want a challenge... sure. If you want it easy... go back to WoW!!!
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Running/Starting a TF solo is an acceptable idea, but scaling it to one person makes it a story arc. (not badge worthy IMO, and the merits should scale down too.) . Perhaps have it scale to the current minimum starting person scale?
currently reading: A Mighty Fortress (David Weber)
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Sounds reasonable to me.
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Originally Posted by Lord_Cyclones
I have read the thread to this point and honestly think a decent middle ground would be offering them as unlocks at level 50 in Oroborous with minimum spawn sizes. Having it in Oroborous would mitigate some of the potential reduction in teaming and Oro is a place where soloists are likely familiar and comfortable. I would also like the DEVs to set the minimim spawn sizes and get an idea for what they envision as the minimum intended team size for each Task Force.
Now I realize that this will create issues with the idiots ranting that they cannot complete the Oro STF on their FF defender because the 'mobs keeping showing up hugeee'. Also, there may be some reduction of people looking to team in a way that the DEVs pretty clearly see as the kind of teaming they intend adn would like to promote. That potential alone may prevent it happening, but this seems like a decent compromise. Cheers |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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I have a question:|
Originally Posted by Ocularis
Well said. I agree with this.
Running/Starting a TF solo is an acceptable idea, but scaling it to one person makes it a story arc. (not badge worthy IMO, and the merits should scale down too.) . Perhaps have it scale to the current minimum starting person scale? |
Would it be unacceptable for me to run TFs solo as story arcs if I choose to void all rewards of any kind that they offer?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Repeatedly insisting that anyone who disagrees with you is doing so only because they're narrow-minded or hate QoL really isn't helping your case.|
Originally Posted by The_Britisher
But whatevs. Let's get this moving. Open minds people. Open minds.
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The vast, vast, VAST majority of existing game content is easily soloable. Historically, the vast, vast, VAST majority of new game content has been soloable.
You're asking for potentially drastic changes to task forces/strike forces because you want to solo them and just handwave the potential problems, then accuse anyone who suggests those problems aren't as trivial as you dismiss them as is narrow-minded and not listening.
My characters - all on Virtue.
Gabe's Internet [censored] Theory
RMT spammers WILL steal your credit card.
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So he's preemptively calling people out on his own flaws?|
Originally Posted by kusanagi
Repeatedly insisting that anyone who disagrees with you is doing so only because they're narrow-minded or hate QoL really isn't helping your case.
The vast, vast, VAST majority of existing game content is easily soloable. Historically, the vast, vast, VAST majority of new game content has been soloable. You're asking for potentially drastic changes to task forces/strike forces because you want to solo them and just handwave the potential problems, then accuse anyone who suggests those problems aren't as trivial as you dismiss them as is narrow-minded and not listening. |
I'm sure there must be a name for this tactic.
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My guess would be to make soloing easier. It's a pain in the neck getting fillers for a solo SF sometimes, too. I'd like it as an option.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
If you only solo, what need do you have for the Alpha slot?
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Unless they change it from the GR beta, then Incarnate powers will turn off for any content below 50.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I'm going to have to talk to my Assault Bot about this.
*Calls in Assault Bot*
BBQ_Pork: I'd like the option to solo TFs.
A_Bot: But you really should team, it's a MMO. M is for Multi-player.
BBQ_Pork: True, but while teaming should be fun and rewarding, it should be optional.
A_Bot: TFs are optional. There is plenty of other content to get you to L50.
BBQ_Pork: I realize that, but I dislike having content or rewards locked-out and denied to me.
A_Bot: Then team if you want to do a TF.
BBQ_Pork: With my schedule? How selfish would I have to be to spend the time gathering a team only to say "Gee guys, we're going to do this TF, but only in chunks of time between 0400 and 0500 Pacific over the course of this week. BTW, I'll have my baby monitor on and *might* have to AFK, but she pretty much sleeps through the night, so it *shouldn't* be a problem. And of course, we'll skip days with server maintainence."?
A_Bot: Pretty selfish.
A_Bot: But what about risk and/or rewards? If you're going to run a TF solo like a story arc, shouldn't the merits reflect that?
BBQ_Pork: Fine.
A_Bot: But what about the badges? Should you still get the badges?
BBQ_Pork: Yes. If the AV (if any) is downgraded to an EB, then maybe require "No deaths" to earn the badge. I don't care.
A_Bot: But the name of the Accolade "Task Force Commander" implies leadership. Why should a soloist get an Accolade based on leading? Who is he going to lead, himself?
BBQ_Pork: The same way that a person can get something leadership-themed without having ever had the star? Spamming "TP plz" and AFK'ing by the door isn't leadership, but even the most worthless member of a team can get a badge, so long as the team finishes.
A_Bot: You should only be able to solo a Task Force AFTER you hit L50.
BBQ_Pork: Sounds kind of arbitrary, but that's fine with me. You do realize that as an exemplared L50, I could be noticably more powerful than a character who is naturally at that level, right?
A_Bot: But spawn size should be at the normal team minimum, regardless of the soloist's settings. Otherwise it's just a story arc.
BBQ_Pork: Fine, although you've already mentioned reducing the merit rewards to story arc size.
A_Bot: Well that's....totally different. TF's have badges.
BBQ_Pork: So do some story arcs. Yet I'm allowed to solo those. And solo them in reasonable chunks of whatever time slots I have available that week. And reduce the AVs to EB status. Heck, even set "no bosses".
A_Bot: You should have to face the EBs at AV status in a solo'ed TF.
BBQ_Pork: Why is that again? You've already reduced the rewards to story arc level and we've discussed having the badge withheld unless a "No deaths" criteria were met. I find AVs to be a waste of time as I grind thier health away slowly. Either I can't do it or it takes so long that it gets boring. Boring sucks.
A_Bot: Fine. "AV at full strength" OR "No Deaths" in order to get the badge.
BBQ_Pork: Fine. Whatever.
A_Bot: But if they're soloable, then there will be a lot of people not able to get on teams because soloists will not be teaming with them. What about...um, Defenders?
BBQ_Pork: If there's a "Lot of people", then they can team with each other. Problem solved. Also: Defenders? Have you seen what all-Defender teams can do? If there were a mess of Defenders unable to get onto a mixed-AT team and they teamed with each other, they could do just fine. Bad attempt, Assault Bot.
*whacks robot with rolled up newspaper*
A_Bot: Sorry.
A_Bot: But if you're not teaming, you're not being social. Isn't the social interaction a big part of a MMO?
BBQ_Pork: I'm monitoring the Help Channel and my favorite Global. I'm potentially chatting with far more than just 7 other players. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to see this Citadel guy and ask if he has any tasks for me. Alone.
The original reasoning behind required team size.
This is according to Jack Emmert, from a developer's blog post he made early in the development of that other superhero MMO. While my feelings toward the man's work and leadership are ... ambivalent at best, I see no reason to think this is inaccurate.
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So, basically, forced teaming was, ultimately, simply a little trick to encourage people to keep playing the game. And if you think about early MMO design, it makes sense: they didn't have the technology or resources to put much more into the game than Kill 10 x + FedEx + Kill Bosses + grind mobs. That just isn't going to engage a player for 60-80 levels. So MMOs were initially designed to encourage the social experience, make that the fun part of play, and thereby keep people coming back.|
Just a few years ago, Everquest was held up as the paragon of MMORPGs. Though several games had come out subsequent to it, none had ever reached its level of subscribers. As a result, many of the Everquest game mechanics became almost canonical. Central to this near holy set of testaments was that players must be forced to team. The philosophy is simple and effective. People play longer if they are playing with friends. If a player is forced to team up with other players, he or she will at some point make friends. I think Anarchy Online and Dark Age of Camelot chipped away at this foundational truth by introducing some levels of soloing, but large swathes of each game focused on teaming. To be honest, I thought the same when working on City of Heroes. We actually created missions that we intended a player to get help with before finishing. Some foes were intended to be too tough for a single player to defeat. We assumed a player would get the mission, go into the instance, realize that he was facing a "boss," leave the mission, find a friend, and then tackle the "boss" together. I was pretty darn naïve back then. |
I personally have no problem with that, in theory. But MMOs have moved on. Developers are actually making games that encourage people to keep playing by being genuinely fun and engaging. City of Heroes/Villains is very, very old by MMO standards. If they want to keep the game competitive--and from all the work they've been doing on it the past couple years, it seems obvious they do--chances are they're going to have to eventually address this little bit of legacy design.
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I have a somewhat different take on how MMOs became team-oriented from the outset. The first BIG team MMO was a trend-setting MMO. Of that there is no doubt. And it was also my first MMO as well. I first began playing Pen-and-paper games in 1980 and these are the kind of games which Everquest was patterned after. In games like Dungeons and Dragons, the whole experience is a group-cooperative effort to overcome encounters. These are very different from first person shooters which center on single person skills and PVP centric activities. So having the idea of "Teaming" built-in was just an extension of the genre.|
Originally Posted by JonScott
So, basically, forced teaming was, ultimately, simply a little trick to encourage people to keep playing the game. And if you think about early MMO design, it makes sense: they didn't have the technology or resources to put much more into the game than Kill 10 x + FedEx + Kill Bosses + grind mobs. That just isn't going to engage a player for 60-80 levels. So MMOs were initially designed to encourage the social experience, make that the fun part of play, and thereby keep people coming back.
I personally have no problem with that, in theory. But MMOs have moved on. Developers are actually making games that encourage people to keep playing by being genuinely fun and engaging. City of Heroes/Villains is very, very old by MMO standards. If they want to keep the game competitive--and from all the work they've been doing on it the past couple years, it seems obvious they do--chances are they're going to have to eventually address this little bit of legacy design. |
If you carry this forward to COH when it launched, it attempted to follow the (until then) standard of teaming but went after the instanced based missions (much maligned at the time) and something completely new in the scaling missions to team size. Because it is based on a different Genre than games like Everquest, it really has been pushed (by the players) into a more "solo" oriented focus. Teaming is there, but many players desire and insist on "soloability".
As much as I am currently upset with how Warcraft developed over time, I left CoH back in march 2005 and spent 3 years in that world. CoH could take a lesson from Warcraft in ways to improving solo and team play. For instance, in solo play our missions scale and can include everything from minions to AVs. One of the coolest features of Warcraft (to me) was that Instances contained mobs of Heroic strength. Imagine a team in CoH choosing to set their difficulty to Super-Heroic (a new level) and when you enter the mission +0/x1 would be just like a one person solo instance, but every minion is an EB, every Lt is an AV and every Boss is a GM. That's how you challenge teams. You don't need a bazillion more mobs of "minion" stature. You need fewer mobs of Heroic stature.
I am not advocating a replacement of existing settings, just something new that would require teams to create strategies in order to overcome, not just Moar AoE, and Moar zerg-rush. Lets see more "pulling" and target calling. More tactics.
But as a "super-hero based RPG", there must continue to be ways for the "solo" hero to thrive. If the game doesnt preserve "Soloability" then it strays from the genre too much.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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With regards to Task Force Commander, Guess if you just do the red side banks' geography markers, I think you get the equivalent accolade,|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Technically, if you buy or bought GR, this is not true.
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so yes, I magine you could by-pass the 6 blue TFs to get it, interesting.
The other accolades are solo accomplishable, thanks to Oro.
Interesting point.
I would say this...
The only reason I do TFs was for the Task Force Commander Accolade, and the merits. I did TFs for the merits, otherwise I would not do those horribly retarded stories, with repetitive missions, and carbon copied maps, with the only change being I was sent to a different far zone with the farthest possible door spawn point.
Today thank to the Alignment system, I can do my 11 tips in 2 days within an hour of play easily between both days, and get my 1 A-Merit, then its rinse-wash-and repeat for 2 more days and now I got 2 A-Merits. I can trade the 2 A-Merits for a very rare recipe, such as a Numina Regen/Recov which costs at a vendor 250 merits. So that would mean that a single A-Merit would be worth 125 merits. Which the 125 merits is roughly like doing 3 to 4 TFs.
Now all things considred, once all my 36 Alts are totally super IOd, I will have no more use for Merits, and thus I will achieve a certain freedom to play without care. I can do any missionthread with any friend, regardless of being blue or red side, I can PUG team on either side and get to make new friends, all of this with out the concern that I am doing something that is taking too long and yields miserable merits and will take forever to get m next alt built-up.
As of now, all 36 of my alts are already fully IOd to the max and are all ubber, but 9 of them are still missing the major power yielding accolades, it will happen in a few weeks. So far Task Force Commander has been the long pole in the tent, but could go red side and just to geography badges...
Incidentally, with the inception of A-Merits and tips, the number of TF teams forming has noticeable plumeted!
Stormy
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You can switch sides and get the Villain version, Invader. If you switch back you will be award both the Task Force Commander Badge and the hero version of the accolade power, same for any other accolade you have when side switching.
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Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
I must be missing something, but how can you get Task Force Commander? Does GR gives me a substitute?
Stormy |
Here's my proposition: Change the minimum team size into a "minimum spawn size." Much like Bill's view, it doesn't prevent soloing, but it sure as hell discourages it.
I also doubt we would see any significant change in the number of teams running task forces. For the most part, people are running these for the reward. AV's go a long way in preventing it from being the most efficient merit/minute for the majority. Even those capable of solo'ing AV's will do it faster with a team.