Soloability...The Movement Forward.
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Reminder to those who take the position that this is an MMO therefore you have to team: there are times when teaming or building a team of sufficient size is not an option unless you are on Freedom or Virtue. Incarnate stuff is level 50 only. The more level 50s required to do it the fewer the people who will be able to participate in it and enjoy it. You are welcome to hold the position of "too bad you need to team to get to do content" but that boils down to telling some people they may as well unsub which is not healthy to us all in the long run. Also, almost all content is far easier on teams than it is soloing unless your teammates are complete morons. If anything stuff like the Incarnate stuff is less meaningful to team players than to soloists. And ultimately in the end I don't care if someone wants to try to solo everything including the Hamidon. That does not negatively impact my gameplay. So I am all for lowering all things to being able to start solo even if it will not be possible for anyone to solo it. Let's face it, if you have to force someone to team with you to accomplish something how much enjoyment are you and they really getting from being together to do it? |
Even when I am "forced" to team to do a TF, I generally enjoy it more, because we are going faster. It certainly doesn't make me enjoy the game less just because I'm on a team.
And saying that people who can't team might as well unsub is ridiculous. It's not like they have to team the entire game, or to even get 99% of rewards in this game right now. Some rewards being team based does not negate all of the rest of the rewards in the game.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
A question to those of you who want to solo all of the content:
What percentage of the game's population do you think can solo AVs?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
I understand that Incarnate abilities ARE character advancement, Bill. Much as SOs or IOs are. The point is, you don't need them to solo, much as you don't need IOs to solo. I would say that you need to slot some enhancements in order to solo, unless you are prepared to go at what I think everyone would agree is an unacceptable rate of advancement through this game.
However, you can advance your character to the point where you don't need to team to do any of the content. That to me seems to indicate that the team content should be made harder, not that the content should be made so that you can solo it. |
In that case tanks and defenders aren't soloable to me under any circumstances.
I don't need enhancements to solo. Yes, it would be stupidly slow, but I don't need them. I don't need them any more than I need to bother playing the game at all.
The fact is that we advance our characters. How far we choose to take that is up to us entirely. I *need* all of the incarnate abilities to solo in EXACTLY the same way I *need* to play this game at all.
Stating that one doesn't need incarnate abilities to solo but needs enhancements at all to do so is not thinking anywhere even remote close to clearly.
There is NO difference between a lvl 5 TO and the +recharge alpha slot beyond the degree of the buff.
Be well, people of CoH.
So your only determination of soloability is one's personal opinion of leveling speed?
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In that case tanks and defenders aren't soloable to me under any circumstances. I don't need enhancements to solo. Yes, it would be stupidly slow, but I don't need them. I don't need them any more than I need to bother playing the game at all. |
The fact is that we advance our characters. How far we choose to take that is up to us entirely. I *need* all of the incarnate abilities to solo in EXACTLY the same way I *need* to play this game at all. |
Besides slightly faster leveling, is there any real reason to form a team now? If you solo, you can do more arcs to get merits for IOs, can do your own tips as faster as you can to get hero/villain merits to get some of those pesky IOs, get a better drop rate, as well as being able to pick and choose which enemies you want to fight, basically. The only things that teams are really needed for are TFs (to get merits which can be earned solo), and Hamidon (to get either HOs, which are generally less useful than IOs, or merits, which can be earned solo as well). The Devs have basically be steadily giving soloers everything that you used to need a team to get. Are you all that surprised that people who like to team want something back?
Stating that one doesn't need incarnate abilities to solo but needs enhancements at all to do so is not thinking anywhere even remote close to clearly. |
1) If you got rid of all enhancements in the game, how many people would think that the solo leveling* speed is too slow?
2) If you got rid of set IOs, how many people would think that the solo leveling speed is too slow?
3) If you got rid of HOs, how many people would think that the solo leveling speed is too slow?
4) If you didn't introduce Incarnate slots, how many people would think that the solo leveling speed is too slow?
The point is that the more buffs you can already get, the less the next step is needed to play the game. Certainly, with just SOs, the basic game at normal settings can become almost ridiculously easy. With IOs, you can make +4/+8 easy enough to do. If you can already do the maximum difficulty with ease, then adding more buffs on top of that won't make you able to do any harder content. Maybe you can do it faster, but that's it. It's like the Defensive soft cap. Once you get there, adding more on top helps you with less and less of the game.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
I've always sided with Bill on this. Most of the TF's I've run have not needed the team size required. In most cases it could be done with half the required size and probably less and virtually no one in my circle of friends uses IO sets to any great degree.
Minimum team size for task/strike forces should be suggestions, not requirements.
I'm sure that even the min player req spawn (ex: 4 min spawn for Posi) would be an acceptable challenge to a "Soloist" such as myself.
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To clarify the system:
If you start with 8 and 6 LOG OUT, it will be spawning for 8.
If you start with 8 and 6 QUIT THE TEAM, it will be spawning for 2.
If enough people quit to reduce the task force to one person, it will automatically disband.
So you can find 3 people to start a Positron TF and then have one quit - it will be set to spawn for 2. You can do the same with any TF. You just need enough to start initially, then you need to keep at least one extra person on the team since the minimum to stay in a task force is a team of two.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Mmmm...
Some very interesting arguments indeed...
There has been much argument about the game being solo or group oriented. I can tell you at the beginning the game was meant to satisfy both styles to an extent; yet Task Forces were intended to be grandious enterprises; thus many challenging missions and of curse a large group of heroes to perform them.
All things considered to the soloer, that did not matter; TFs was just a good way to get experience and nothing else. But that changed as the game evolved, we began to get shiny badges and we just had to have those, then we could get accolade powers by doing them, so we had to get those, and then the TFs gave out merits, and we really wanted those!... Because of this evolution, the solo part has been kinda left behind, I had in the past suggested that special task like threads be developed for solo types to do and earn badges and merits equivalent to those that can be earned in a group format (I'm still smoking from the relentless flamming).
Given that the "classic" Positron was sent to Oro and can be done solo, we do have a presedent of this being doable and not a mortal sin. It seems only reasonable the other TFS/SFs could be done Oro style as well; perhaps one blue and red could be released with each new release, say starting with I20 and up...
There is another reason, based onthe above, that I wouldlike to solo TFs. I am avid collector of power giving or enhancing accolades. One of them, requiresme to have done the TFs beginning with Positron and ending with Numina. Because of the time I can play the game, server population, and what not. It is difficult to form or join a group that would want to do the TF I need for the set. I often have to wait days, before such an opportunity can be presented to get the coveted TF badge. THus it would be courteous, if I could simply go to Oro and do the TF I need.
The other issue with soloability, which has to an extent be resolved through the use of IOs, is the various AT soloability capabilities. I can play my tanker, and frankly there is no mission that would give me cause for concern at standard difficulty levels, higher ones are not that much more challenging. Play a Defender, and short of some very exceptional power combinations, the challenge is quite high even at low level of difficulty. Would be nice, if the soloability capability of each AT gap could be narrowed some. But as I said, IOs, have done much towards narrowing this gap, but it would b nice if the power sets were rebalanced to accomplish this as well, and within reason.
Hugs
Stormy
The point is that the more buffs you can already get, the less the next step is needed to play the game. Certainly, with just SOs, the basic game at normal settings can become almost ridiculously easy. With IOs, you can make +4/+8 easy enough to do. If you can already do the maximum difficulty with ease, then adding more buffs on top of that won't make you able to do any harder content. Maybe you can do it faster, but that's it. It's like the Defensive soft cap. Once you get there, adding more on top helps you with less and less of the game. |
Therefore, I *need* the incarnate buffs to do the upcoming content.
Be well, people of CoH.
The point, Aett, is that we're about to get new content WITH the new incarnate buffs specifically designed FOR characters with the incarnate buffs and thus my +4/x8 build will be insufficient for the task at hand WITHOUT the incarnate buffs.
Therefore, I *need* the incarnate buffs to do the upcoming content. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
I thought of one last point I should mentions:
I'm simply asking for a QoL change.
If all I'm asking for is the possibility of opening up certain epic parts of the game to singular players, then why are some of you so dead set against that change?
If the change has no negative effect, and is done properly, doesn't that also make the option available to you?
Even if you don't use the soloing aspect it is still there for you. There may be that one day off work/school/ect... when you're on alone. TFs/Trials/Giant Monsters are the truly EPIC parts of the game. However 99% of that content needs to have a team effort. And Thos Epic opportunities are also a large chunk of the game content too. So, basically, if you ever decide you don't want to team then you're jammed. See?
Also, why does it have to be a Solo vs. Team issue? It's not. It's about having more options to play FOR EVERYONE. Period.
The common mistake being made is much like the one involving politics. Voting Democrat because the Republicans are bad/vice versa doesn;t solve the greater issue. The system is flawed.
It should be about voting for the personb who gives the best/most options.
The same can be said for here.
There is no valid reasoning to say why it shouldn;t be implemented. It can be worked into correct rping, and even so it's not like any of our characters are canon anyway. We all make our own stories, so what another person can or cannot do is unimportant in truth.
One other point to add in relation is to Giant Monsters. I understand the need to have them configured the way they do because of POS griefers. However, how often can the casual person fight one of these, and win, without knowing how to use the Global channels anymore. Alot of newer players will miss out as such from not understanding too.
I can;t count how many times a GM has popped up and nobody is really about to take it down. Certainly without having to SPECIFICALLY use a channel that may or may not be know. Broadcast, Local, ect. are usually no help on most occasions. And for the argument about some servers always...blah, blah, blah. Well, unless its uniform across all, or at least MOST servers, then it doesn't count as a useable/viable argument.
Uniform, which is nobody being around to be GMs on a regular basis, is the norm.
Ok now since we've established that GM fighting is somewhat skewed (though a necessary evil), that means that they will always be ONLY beaten by teams.
There are 4 Epic things in the game
1. Raids: Hamidon
2. Task Forces
3. Trials
4. Giant Monsters
These are all BIG events that make a character truly HEROIC. They shouldn't all be only team oriented.
Raids and GMs (as stated, need to be team oriented.
SOME (I said SOME) TFs/Trials do not...and should not. This is the area that can add more options, and why shouldn;t we ALL want more options? To have options is better then to not have them, and everything eventually can become a grind. This option I asking for helps delay that inevitability.
It's a reasonable request, and one the community as a whole really should be getting behind. It only adds dimensions to the game. And a unifed voice is one that is responded to faster.
Being against Quality of Life game changes is a very poor way of thinking.
Think about it.
Sorry for all the continued typos too. I don't have time to spell check at work as I've written when I could.
Okay, but you don't *need* to play that content. If you want to, there are gates there. I am okay with those gates. I know that you are not. And we're going to disagree on that, which I'm sure that both of us can agree to do.
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The point is that ALL types of plkayers should be allowed to experience the content without having to specifically play they way YOU think it should be played.
Technically, it's biased/predjudiced if that's not the case otherwise.
Plus, it;s very bad business to force that on anyone, and even worse, more selfish, thinking to say just don't play it then. That's called being greedy, closed-minded, secular, provincial, and elitist...just to pick some descriptives.
To be open, and FAIR, there needs to be options.
If you don;t like options then you should go sit with your gramma at the kitchen table and complain about the neighbors parking 1/4 of an inch over thier side of the driveway. Then wake up.
Stop being selfish, because you like how they system works FOR YOU. If the system never changed what would it matter to you anyway, and if it only changed for the better, would you still oppose it. Of course not.
You fight for the wrong reasons, and I'll wager for emotional ones rather then rational ones.
How about you can only pay one AT on each side. That sounds fair to me. Thats the argument you're presenting, because you refuse to see other people's perspecitves or consider other people's feeling/aspects.
Be more considerate , then pehaps you'll be more fair/balanced.
If all I'm asking for is the possibility of opening up certain epic parts of the game to singular players, then why are some of you so dead set against that change?
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Anyhow, for me personally, I want to see content done right. The devs have to make this game balanced. If they are designing a new TF with a min of 8 players to start, it is balanced around having 8 players.
A dom appears to have solo'd the LRSF (master even). A scrapper has posted soloing MITF. And so forth.
If soloing content is that easy, then the devs are left with the option to make it more hard because they are designing for a team event that is being soloed. This in turn impacts the less optimized teams, and thus harder to normally do for players not at optimized/maximized levels. I have been on failed ITFs, LRSFs, STFs, even respec trials. It is not fun failing, especially when someone is saying "well golly, I solo'd this on my purpled out WS." I like non-optimized teams too that don't require any AT or powerset. Last Sunday I was on an STF with no tank (and not an all AT team either), finished in under 2 hrs and we either had 2 or 3 deaths total. I have been on all blaster TFs and finished. If the devs have to make these harder because people with elite toons can solo them, then they stop being fun.
GMs can and have been soloed. They do not require teams.
What I'm saying is there is a high likelihood of a negative effect on the entire community, in that TFs will be harder to find, as the people who organize them will be less inclined to do so.
Where to now?
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I have been playing this game for 6 years now. When the game first came out, I was younger, and had far fewer responsibilities and consequently, was able to team more often, and for a longer period of time.
These day's, I dont have the spare time. When I log in, I am able to do one, or two missions before I need to log.
I don't want to start a TF over and over, and do the first mission 50 times over to see some new content.
I dont want to have to tell a team, that has spent 45 mins trying to come to gether, and get their **** together that I need to split after 1, maybe two mish's. It is not fair to them.
Sure, I could solo a TF, but frankly, I dont think it is fair to ask a stranger to keep a toon unplayable for a week before I am able to finish the tf.
So therefore, I don't play the new TF's. Anything that REQUIRES teaming for me is pretty much off limits.
Now, I understand that it is a MMO, and fine, whatever, I guess I don't really need to see new content additions. I am happy to truck along doing whatever it is I do, but for a development team that historically trys to force people into playing content, it is suprising they don't give everyone the chance to play said content.
Unless it's very early in the morning, I can probably get a team together to do any content, including "forced" team situations like TFs, even on Pinnacle. At peak times, there's no problem whatsoever.
Even when I am "forced" to team to do a TF, I generally enjoy it more, because we are going faster. It certainly doesn't make me enjoy the game less just because I'm on a team. And saying that people who can't team might as well unsub is ridiculous. It's not like they have to team the entire game, or to even get 99% of rewards in this game right now. Some rewards being team based does not negate all of the rest of the rewards in the game. |
Also when I referenced people unsubbing it was still in relation to being unable to do the Incarnate stuff except on teams. People have been waiting for end game content and this is the big prize of that. If you tell them they have to team with a group of 8 50s in order to do it you are limiting their options. There are some who will just say forget it and leave.
For the record I am equally opposed to the new forced soloing in Praetoria.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
I already thought about it.
Anyhow, for me personally, I want to see content done right. The devs have to make this game balanced. If they are designing a new TF with a min of 8 players to start, it is balanced around having 8 players. A dom appears to have solo'd the LRSF (master even). A scrapper has posted soloing MITF. And so forth. If soloing content is that easy, then the devs are left with the option to make it more hard because they are designing for a team event that is being soloed. This in turn impacts the less optimized teams, and thus harder to normally do for players not at optimized/maximized levels. I have been on failed ITFs, LRSFs, STFs, even respec trials. It is not fun failing, especially when someone is saying "well golly, I solo'd this on my purpled out WS." I like non-optimized teams too that don't require any AT or powerset. Last Sunday I was on an STF with no tank (and not an all AT team either), finished in under 2 hrs and we either had 2 or 3 deaths total. I have been on all blaster TFs and finished. If the devs have to make these harder because people with elite toons can solo them, then they stop being fun. |
Also, the rewards would be gimped. It's only fair. Less people, less reward. Maybe no merits unless team, ect. No respec avail w/o team.
I'm just interested in the content. The path to 50 should have as many roads as possible. Not everyone whats to stick with a topped out toon.
It would also promote more Alt o holics. The nore alts, the less likely the game gets old, the more they play and don;t go elsewhere.
It's really a win/win for the playes and the Devs. I don't understand why they aren;t jumping on this ASAP. I guess it's really about not wanting to undertake the task even if it is a possibly minor change. And having whiners on the boards are the issue that would take care of itself if the work is done right in this instance. It's not like its ED or something where the gameplay is affected.
Everyone really needs to get this rolling. We should all start PM, or whatever outlet there is now to get the Devs/GM attention.
Somehow I don't think one thread with responses will do.
Please let me know who to bug and I'll religiously pester their PM, email, phone..whatever to be heard and get a valid response. I'm a bulldog.
Just a small point to raise here, but it may be relevant to your concern. The task forces have a minimum team size requirement to START them but the minimum spawn size is just TWO.
To clarify the system: If you start with 8 and 6 LOG OUT, it will be spawning for 8. If you start with 8 and 6 QUIT THE TEAM, it will be spawning for 2. If enough people quit to reduce the task force to one person, it will automatically disband. So you can find 3 people to start a Positron TF and then have one quit - it will be set to spawn for 2. You can do the same with any TF. You just need enough to start initially, then you need to keep at least one extra person on the team since the minimum to stay in a task force is a team of two. |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
If all I'm asking for is the possibility of opening up certain epic parts of the game to singular players, then why are some of you so dead set against that change?
If the change has no negative effect, and is done properly, doesn't that also make the option available to you? |
Unlike your opinion, I have brought up a change in the teaming aspect of the game that was introduced when people were allowed to solo content they previously teamed to do. The amount of teams drastically decreased in that small area of the game. While this may or may not happen by opening TFs to soloists, it does lend credibility to what I am saying.
Also, you are currently not locked out from doing this content. You may be locked out for a period of a few days, but if you have the time to do the content yourself, you can find a team to do it as well. So for a small amount of the game which is entirely optional, you need to team. I don't see that as much of a barrier.
It does make teams form, which many of us like to see. Since you are not blocked from earning the rewards, or joining one of those teams, I see little problem with leaving well enough alone.
Basically, you can not prove that there is no negative impact. I can show you places where making things solo friendly has reduced the number of teams. So how can you say there will be no negative impact?
GMs can and have been soloed. They do not require teams.
You cannot be sure that there won't be a negative effect. I am one of those people that probably could solo all of those TFs you'd want this enabled for, but I run them often with teams. If I could solo them, there would be plenty of times that, rather than form a team, I just solo a Sister Psyche. What I'm saying is there is a high likelihood of a negative effect on the entire community, in that TFs will be harder to find, as the people who organize them will be less inclined to do so. |
And yes, nothing is perfect, but that is already understood and another thing that needs not be mentioned. We all know it after all.
However, the prososed QoL change is not a negative. Mearly opening the door to allow a single person to play more content, at their own speed. At best there'd only be a mild tweak to the difficulty. The idea is that to play that content solo one would have to earn it. The extra difficulty is the result. That's the trade off and it's fair.
In proposing this I haven't thought about it lightly. Naturally the inside aspect of the game has more things to consider that I don't know about, but my proposal, at least from what we all know as players, is solid and fair.
MMOs are always changing. That;s their nature and we have to accept it. This is one change that makes it more fair for all players. I say as long as it works, and doesn;t mess up the game as it is now then it should be a priority.
I am dead set against that change because I do feel that it will have a negative impact on my ability to muster a team to do a TF or SF.
Unlike your opinion, I have brought up a change in the teaming aspect of the game that was introduced when people were allowed to solo content they previously teamed to do. The amount of teams drastically decreased in that small area of the game. While this may or may not happen by opening TFs to soloists, it does lend credibility to what I am saying. Also, you are currently not locked out from doing this content. You may be locked out for a period of a few days, but if you have the time to do the content yourself, you can find a team to do it as well. So for a small amount of the game which is entirely optional, you need to team. I don't see that as much of a barrier. It does make teams form, which many of us like to see. Since you are not blocked from earning the rewards, or joining one of those teams, I see little problem with leaving well enough alone. Basically, you can not prove that there is no negative impact. I can show you places where making things solo friendly has reduced the number of teams. So how can you say there will be no negative impact? |
It's hardly a small amount of the game that forces teaming. How many TFs are forced teaming?
How many trials?
How many GMs?
Hamidon?
How about whole zones like Monster Island or the Abyss?
That's alot of content. It's only recently become more balanced with police/paper mished, tips, ect.
If the reason the Devs don't want to change it is because the community might whine, then it;s time to say shut the hell up and see how it works out. If it turned out to be a ****** change theyn I'd rail at their door as loud...louder then any of you. Updates can be repealled you know, and what would it hurt for them to try it on Test?
As for teaming, well with Going Rogue live the servers have been more packed then I'd seen them in awhile.
Please, OPEN you minds.
Okay, but you don't *need* to play that content. If you want to, there are gates there. I am okay with those gates. I know that you are not. And we're going to disagree on that, which I'm sure that both of us can agree to do.
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I don't even care if it's flat out impossible to solo as long as the access is there. Blocking access for no other reason but to force teaming is now and forever will be the stupidest design decision ever made.
EDIT: And for all the posts stating "I fear this because it will be harder for me to find a team to run those events" I only have one response: I'm supposed to give a damn why? You want to block me from content for no other reason but that you have problems finding a team? Got it. That's a frelling weak argument.
Be well, people of CoH.
Not that there's anything wrong with that!
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