Soloability...The Movement Forward.
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2010-10-06 07:29 in Suggestions and Ideas
Quote:
ppssssst, you do know that AVs are SUPPOSED to be TEAM content right?|
Originally Posted by firespray
I wasn't saying you were, just in general.
It's neither one really. I just think that there should be certain content that is team-only. I'm not really concerned with what that content is, but I feel that in an MMO, certain things should require teaming. It's just how I think they should work. |
you also do know that it's not that hard to get around the team requirements right? That I can set up a solo tf right now with help form people online?
Also you do know that you can interact with others in an mmo without teaming with them, right?
With all of the above being facts I see no issue AT ALL with giving the option for lvl 50s to be able to solo any tf/sf they want.
EDIT: I'll note some of the arguments I'm seeing against being able to solo tfs are the SAME arguments I saw when the suggestion of allowing folks to set their difficulty slider to +4/x8 were made . . . right before the devs gave that option.
As I said then I'll say again: The folks who want to solo wouldn't be teaming with you in the first place. They simply use a well known trick to make said tfs soloable RIGHT NOW.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Because you are not forced to team. You don't need to do TFs at all. There is no need for anything in the game to do so. Everything you can get on a TF you can get some where else.
If you are keen to test your mettle on a TF, or even just experience the content, you can. The ability is in game. Irritating, yes. However, for someone who has gone to the time and effort to get a character to that point it is not much of a barrier I would imagine.
In the mean time, that irritating barrier keeps that content team friendly for those of us that like that sort of thing.
Quote:
How many times have you run the ITF? STF? LGTF? |
Originally Posted by Torrynt
If so, then are you going to do it multiple times?
|
Me? Never. Not for merits, not for badges, I guess I could go on the wiki and read about the storyline, but I would rather play through it, thanks.
Talk about taking the converstation sideways. You take a debate from I want to solo TF content, to I dont want people to exploit the game, and ruin my chances of teaming.
Since you clearly know nothing about it, running a TF/SF would take longer for me to get xp/loot than if I ran mish's or marketed.
Christ, it is possible to get one hundred merits worth of random rolls with 1 hero merit. That is 11 mishs, done at whatever pace you want. People exploiting TF/SF's for merits are very bad at math.
Quote:
Sure some do. However, it's far easier to just jump on one of the many channels and say, ITF starting. I'm sure there are people who do it to say they did it. However, as long as the barrier for entry is there, it's easier for everyone to just form a team.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
EDIT: I'll note some of the arguments I'm seeing against being able to solo tfs are the SAME arguments I saw when the suggestion of allowing folks to set their difficulty slider to +4/x8 were made . . . right before the devs gave that option.
As I said then I'll say again: The folks who want to solo wouldn't be teaming with you in the first place. They simply use a well known trick to make said tfs soloable RIGHT NOW. |
If you need to prove yourself, or are so antisocial that the thought of a team is anathema, then there is a method for you to solo to your hearts content.
When the slider was introduced, the high level teams in PI dried up almost overnight. Why? Many of those people were farmers who wanted drops. They needed people to team. It was an artificial barrier to entry. No one complains because those were lousy teams. Doorsitting stinks. Sure TFs have an artificial barrier to entry too. However, I've never been asked to doorsit. Those are good teams and if history is to be believed, you will see an across the board reduction on the number of teams running TFs.
How much is debatable, but every time a solo friendly aspect is added, the number of teams is reduced in that aspect.
I like that CoX is so solo friendly. I have times where I solo a lot. However, I also like teams and it's nice to get a team where I know I can play for 1-2 hours on a consistent basis.
For the antisocial, you can still do it. Or you can ignore them all together.
Quote:
As long as you are happy I guess thats all that matters. Why bother putting yourself into someone elses shoes and make the content available for everyone despite their playstyle. With that selfish attitude, it is not surprising you may find it difficult to find teams.|
Originally Posted by Torrynt
In the mean time, that irritating barrier keeps that content team friendly for those of us that like that sort of thing.
|
The problem is that for you, it is about advancement, and getting leet xp/loot while teamed. For me, I would just like the option to play the content at my own pace.
Torrynt, I do not want to do TFs for the drops. I've never done anything for the drops. I've done what I have to experience the content, succeed or fail. I like to explore in games - new ways of playing, different characters, and ALL the content available, regardless whether it's a storyline that falls below a B-grade movie, it's that thin line that allows me to enjoy the game itself.
I've attempted solo giant monsters many times - had to bail on them all so far, but I just wanted to see how far I could last against them and what damage I could do. A test for my character, not an obstacle to be overcome in order to get XP or a drop. The reward was the experience itself, something which cannot be quantified in the game.
I've seen your repeated argument against allowing solo TFs to be that there would be fewer players joining teams. The assumption I see behind this argument is that people who'd rather solo are forced to team, and you want it to stay this way. The logical extension of this is that you want people who don't want to team with you to be forced to do so, which contradicts your response to me. Please clarify your position to help me understand how this is not contradictory.
Current primary characters, all on Guardian:
The Amber Fist (Elec/Stone Tanker) | Pixelbeater (Fire/Kin Corr) | The Sequencer (Bots/Traps MM)
Blakkat (Claws/Dark Brute) | Mhogus'thra (Ill/Dark Cont) | Wyldhunt (Beast/Dark MM)
For what it's worth, I'm no longer opposed to removing the "teamgate" to TFs.
Here's my proposition: Change the minimum team size into a "minimum spawn size." Much like Bill's view, it doesn't prevent soloing, but it sure as hell discourages it.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
The slider wasn't what caused teams in PI to dry up. AE most definetly was, and still is. And as you said those teams were not real teams, so why should anyone care.|
Originally Posted by Torrynt
Sure some do. However, it's far easier to just jump on one of the many channels and say, ITF starting. I'm sure there are people who do it to say they did it. However, as long as the barrier for entry is there, it's easier for everyone to just form a team.
If you need to prove yourself, or are so antisocial that the thought of a team is anathema, then there is a method for you to solo to your hearts content. When the slider was introduced, the high level teams in PI dried up almost overnight. Why? Many of those people were farmers who wanted drops. They needed people to team. It was an artificial barrier to entry. No one complains because those were lousy teams. Doorsitting stinks. Sure TFs have an artificial barrier to entry too. However, I've never been asked to doorsit. Those are good teams and if history is to be believed, you will see an across the board reduction on the number of teams running TFs. How much is debatable, but every time a solo friendly aspect is added, the number of teams is reduced in that aspect. I like that CoX is so solo friendly. I have times where I solo a lot. However, I also like teams and it's nice to get a team where I know I can play for 1-2 hours on a consistent basis. For the antisocial, you can still do it. Or you can ignore them all together. |
I'm just not seeing how giving folks the option to do what they can already do is a bad thing.
If the option existed tf teams wouldn't dry up simply because there are folks who like to run speed tfs with superteams.
Every doom mongering argument against opening more options in this game has been wrong.
Was wrong about the slider existing, was wrong about the markets being merged, was wrong about allowing to go back and play old arcs we missed, was wrong about side switching being allowed.
Would not be surprised if soloing tfs was introduced and all the predictions were wrong once again.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
Hold up there, please. The thought of a team being anathema != antisocial. The problem finding a team of like-minded individuals, who want to work together with decent tactics, won't get feelings hurt or offended extremely easily when advice is offered, and don't want to blow through missions as quickly as possible (and paradoxically take longer to start a mission than go through it) has proved extremely difficult over the years I've played CoX. Given that, in order to actually go at a decent pace and ENJOY the content, I find I MUST solo it.
|
Originally Posted by Torrynt
...or are so antisocial that the thought of a team is anathema...
|
Current primary characters, all on Guardian:
The Amber Fist (Elec/Stone Tanker) | Pixelbeater (Fire/Kin Corr) | The Sequencer (Bots/Traps MM)
Blakkat (Claws/Dark Brute) | Mhogus'thra (Ill/Dark Cont) | Wyldhunt (Beast/Dark MM)
Quote:
Several.|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
How many times have you run the ITF? STF? LGTF?
|
Quote:
|
Me? Never. Not for merits, not for badges, I guess I could go on the wiki and read about the storyline, but I would rather play through it, thanks. Talk about taking the converstation sideways. You take a debate from I want to solo TF content, to I dont want people to exploit the game, and ruin my chances of teaming. |
If you are running it once, then the hassle is just a few moments of your life. As long as this is not content that is so compelling that you feel the need to do it multiple times, keeping the barrier in place to placate the team oriented folks is not a bad idea.
I agree that tips are more lucrative. However, you are capped on that. The people grinding TFs do their 5 tips and then jump right in to get their 50-100 merits a day. They are not running the TFs because the content is better or really all that much different than radios, they are doing it because that's the next best game in town for rewards.
Quote:
| Since you clearly know nothing about it, running a TF/SF would take longer for me to get xp/loot than if I ran mish's or marketed. |
Secondly, I would imagine that most people who are capable of taking on a +4/x8 could absolutely rip through a TF at -1/1 to -1/8 or -1/6. It would open merit and drop farming to a new degree. At that point, it would be far faster to dump the team and maximize my drop rate and speed through the missions. No "afk for a moment" or even waiting to form.
Quote:
Glad to see that you are actually doing it for the content. Sadly, I don't think most do. |
Originally Posted by Wyldhunt
Torrynt, I do not want to do TFs for the drops. I've never done anything for the drops. I've done what I have to experience the content, succeed or fail. I like to explore in games - new ways of playing, different characters, and ALL the content available, regardless whether it's a storyline that falls below a B-grade movie, it's that thin line that allows me to enjoy the game itself.
I've attempted solo giant monsters many times - had to bail on them all so far, but I just wanted to see how far I could last against them and what damage I could do. A test for my character, not an obstacle to be overcome in order to get XP or a drop. The reward was the experience itself, something which cannot be quantified in the game. I've seen your repeated argument against allowing solo TFs to be that there would be fewer players joining teams. The assumption I see behind this argument is that people who'd rather solo are forced to team, and you want it to stay this way. The logical extension of this is that you want people who don't want to team with you to be forced to do so, which contradicts your response to me. Please clarify your position to help me understand how this is not contradictory. |
Right now, they don't mind teaming because that's the fastest and easiest way to merits. While they are not opposed to teaming per say, they are interested in their best reward/hour of game time. Take away the barriers and that paradigm changes. The best reward/hour of game time becomes solo if you can do it. Which many can and would.
Wyld, if you want to solo a TF, you can now. You are just doing it for the challenge, so it's not like this is an inconvenience that you face every day. It's an irritation that you might experience a few times in the years that you play.
That is not too much to ask to keep what I think is a good aspect of the game in place.
Quote:
Do you have any toons on Justice, Freedom, or Virtue? Can I tie one up for a couple weeks/month? It is not just a hassle for me, it is a possibly a hassle for whoever I ask, I am not comfortable taking away someones ability to play their character if they want to, that is selfish in my opinion. Wanting to team with people that dont want to team is selfish in my opinion.|
Originally Posted by Torrynt
Glad to see that you are actually doing it for the content. Sadly, I don't think most do.
Right now, they don't mind teaming because that's the fastest and easiest way to merits. While they are not opposed to teaming per say, they are interested in their best reward/hour of game time. Take away the barriers and that paradigm changes. The best reward/hour of game time becomes solo if you can do it. Which many can and would. Wyld, if you want to solo a TF, you can now. You are just doing it for the challenge, so it's not like this is an inconvenience that you face every day. It's an irritation that you might experience a few times in the years that you play. That is not too much to ask to keep what I think is a good aspect of the game in place. |
Again, best rewards in game for time/reward ratio is not TFs. Seriously. I promise, no matter how much you farm it.
Quote:
I disagree with this. High level teams, AE or otherwise died when the slider appeared. It's just easier to do your little farming at anywhere from -1/4 to +4/8 on your own. There are a fraction of the teams doing that. Which as you say, is not a huge loss since they were lousy teams. It still does not change the fact that it did decrease those teams. It would take a lot to convince me otherwise.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
The slider wasn't what caused teams in PI to dry up. AE most definetly was, and still is. And as you said those teams were not real teams, so why should anyone care.
|
Quote:
| If the option existed tf teams wouldn't dry up simply because there are folks who like to run speed tfs with superteams. |
Quote:
| Was wrong about the slider existing, was wrong about the markets being merged, was wrong about allowing to go back and play old arcs we missed, was wrong about side switching being allowed. |
Quote:
| Would not be surprised if soloing tfs was introduced and all the predictions were wrong once again. |
[quote]
Quote:
Bzzt. Wrong. There are accolades which provide personal buffs that are only attainable by doing TFs.|
Originally Posted by Torrynt
Because you are not forced to team. You don't need to do TFs at all. There is no need for anything in the game to do so. Everything you can get on a TF you can get some where else.
If you are keen to test your mettle on a TF, or even just experience the content, you can. The ability is in game. Irritating, yes. However, for someone who has gone to the time and effort to get a character to that point it is not much of a barrier I would imagine. In the mean time, that irritating barrier keeps that content team friendly for those of us that like that sort of thing. |
Yes, the workaround is irritating. Just like only being able to trade 99999 inf at a time. The devs fixed that. It was also irritating having split markets and an inability to send inf cross faction. The devs fixed that. Apparently the devs enjoy removing unnecessary irritation from the game.
Removing the min team size gate will in no way make them less team friendly. The TF/SF will not be altered in any way. It has already been stated many times that only a minority are even capable of soloing TF/SFs which means teams will still be running them. Again, your fear is baseless.
Be well, people of CoH.
No I don't, but if you want one, I'll happily make one and you can PM me every time you want me to log to keep her for a week or so. You have friends in game who could do the same. I know I have done so for my friends.
Edit: Sorry didn't see Virtue. Yes I have toons there. I'll happily let you tie one up for as long as you need too.
Quote:
Sounds great, Dechs. That or unlocking them for level 50s in Ouro. Either solution is perfectly fine for me.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
For what it's worth, I'm no longer opposed to removing the "teamgate" to TFs.
Here's my proposition: Change the minimum team size into a "minimum spawn size." Much like Bill's view, it doesn't prevent soloing, but it sure as hell discourages it. |
I believe, however, that your solution will receive more pushback from those that are worried about the lack of scaling when they lose teammates.
I wouldn't care, of course, but I've seen that argument before.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
On second though, I think this would be best. That way the Ouro version could award less merits, as they could likely be done much faster. Additionally, this would probably have the option to spawn the AVs as EBs.
|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Sounds great, Dechs. That or unlocking them for level 50s in Ouro. Either solution is perfectly fine for me.
|
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Psst. Friends list has been totally grey now for 3 years. Well, thats not true, A friend logged on for about 10 mins last xmas to say see you when GR releases. Hasnt been back that I know of. Again, I consider it rude to ask that of someone.
|
Originally Posted by Torrynt
No I don't, but if you want one, I'll happily make one and you can PM me every time you want me to log to keep her for a week or so. You have friends in game who could do the same. I know I have done so for my friends.
Edit: Sorry didn't see Virtue. Yes I have toons there. I'll happily let you tie one up for as long as you need too. |
Quote:
Ah yes, you are correct. You would have to team up to what 6 times in your career at the moment. Or use the run around 6 times.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Bzzt. Wrong. There are accolades which provide personal buffs that are only attainable by doing TFs.
|
Quote:
| Yes, the workaround is irritating. Just like only being able to trade 99999 inf at a time. The devs fixed that. It was also irritating having split markets and an inability to send inf cross faction. The devs fixed that. Apparently the devs enjoy removing unnecessary irritation from the game. |
Quote:
| Removing the min team size gate will in no way make them less team friendly. The TF/SF will not be altered in any way. It has already been stated many times that only a minority are even capable of soloing TF/SFs which means teams will still be running them. Again, your fear is baseless. |
Quote:
Sounds great to me as well.
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
On second though, I think this would be best. That way the Ouro version could award less merits, as they could likely be done much faster. Additionally, this would probably have the option to spawn the AVs as EBs.
|
Current primary characters, all on Guardian:
The Amber Fist (Elec/Stone Tanker) | Pixelbeater (Fire/Kin Corr) | The Sequencer (Bots/Traps MM)
Blakkat (Claws/Dark Brute) | Mhogus'thra (Ill/Dark Cont) | Wyldhunt (Beast/Dark MM)
Quote:
Interesting. That tells me everything I need to know about why you feel the way you do.
| As it stands people like me can ride on their coat tails and help along the way. |
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
Ah, I understand now why you dont want people soloing, no coats to ride.|
Originally Posted by Torrynt
As it stands people like me can ride on their coat tails and help along the way.
|
Edit: Guess I owe you a Dos Equis Bill, Give it to you when I get to hell.
Quote:
Ah, there it is. Now I know the source of your opinion, and I can't argue against that. However, making these available in Orobouros to only level 50s with lessened rewards (lessened enough that those who do the "real" TFs for rewards would skip Orobouros) should satisfy both sides. What say you?
|
Originally Posted by Torrynt
As it stands people like me can ride on their coat tails and help along the way.
|
Current primary characters, all on Guardian:
The Amber Fist (Elec/Stone Tanker) | Pixelbeater (Fire/Kin Corr) | The Sequencer (Bots/Traps MM)
Blakkat (Claws/Dark Brute) | Mhogus'thra (Ill/Dark Cont) | Wyldhunt (Beast/Dark MM)
Quote:
If they allowed the AV to EB downgrade, which I would be against, then yea, they'd have to lower the merit reward value, which I am also against.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
On second though, I think this would be best. That way the Ouro version could award less merits, as they could likely be done much faster. Additionally, this would probably have the option to spawn the AVs as EBs.
|
Teams already get an XP multiplier to offset the fact that XP is being shared. This is offset by content becoming easier to get through due to the way teammates aid each other.
Because of this, I am against both the AV-EB downgrade as I am against a decrease in the merit reward. If I'm doing the same task, I should get the same reward. EDIT: But I probably wouldn't fight too hard against it in the spirit of compromise.
Be well, people of CoH.
It's neither one really. I just think that there should be certain content that is team-only. I'm not really concerned with what that content is, but I feel that in an MMO, certain things should require teaming. It's just how I think they should work.
Hami. CoP, sure, need a team, get that. I understand it is imposible to do without teaming. There you go, content you need a team for.
Why do you think that you HAVE to have a team to run TF content when you have no issues trivializing that content with a toon designed to solo AV's? Its cool for me to do it, but others shouldn't? Please.