I'll admit, its not a perfect metaphor - (few are) but it seems people are going out of their way to intentionally miss the point I'd attempted to make, No?
I'm not complaining - I stopped that long ago, and I'm not worried about my dealings there = I've spent enough time there to know the 'norms' for the stuff I tend to buy/use or marketeer with...
I've "lrnd2mrkt" or whatever it is that the cool kids say, And IF I enjoyed the game at lvl 50 as much as I enjoy leveling up normally & indulging my Altaholism - I'd be contributing more to inflation in the game.
Just trying to point out that "the give the market your INF and wait" mantra is really off-putting for some people, especially new players.
That, plus the typical snark & dooosh-snobbery in many replies to newbies' posts in a very bad thing IMO, the biggest problem with the market isn't how it functions, It's not Ebilness 
, or black-hattery that's the issue here.
It's all the condescending trash-talk and azz-hattery that I have a problem with, I'll go back to lurking/reading (and actually playing the game if I have time) now.
P.S.
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When you figure this out - Then you'll have actually learned a real secret of the market. |
Originally Posted by Misaligned
Funny... I purchased 1 for about 500 while Goat was doing this. Yes, during his little adventure, I was able to purchase one for 500.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
City of Heroes didn't fail, City of Heroes was killed. If a 747 dropped on your house, you'd say you were killed, not you failed to find a safer dwelling.
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It's too late to try and explain things now. You've trampled all over their dogma so the haters are gonna hate. All the goat is gonna do is continue to bray at you very loudly about how stupid he thinks you are. It's the one thing he's really good at.
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Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow
I am sure that many of you disagree with this and thats perfectly fine. All I am suggesting is that if people dont understand how the market works, things like this make it much harder to do so.
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A mod actually, specifically warned me to not call people "stupid" in so many words.
I would like to point out that there's a difference between calling someone a "hater" and actually disproving their argument. I'm waiting for the "loveless geek living with parents" level of argument to start.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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huh, now where did I say that?|
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
It's too late to try and explain things now. You've trampled all over their dogma so the haters are gonna hate. All the goat is gonna do is continue to bray at you very loudly about how stupid he thinks you are. It's the one thing he's really good at.
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oh yeah....I didn't.
Readers are advised to take Coyote's grasp of the contents of this thread into account when weighing the value of his comments.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Heh. If you pay attention, you might realize that Goat actually has some good knowledge of the market that he passes on to anyone who is interested.|
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
It's too late to try and explain things now. You've trampled all over their dogma so the haters are gonna hate. All the goat is gonna do is continue to bray at you very loudly about how stupid he thinks you are. It's the one thing he's really good at.
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Not sure what is more acurately labeled as dogma, people explaining how the market works, people with no idea how it works, but are willing to label as evil, or people that know how it works and try to imagine how evil it is for others.
What is it that you are good at Coyote? How have you helped out? With passive aggressive insults in order to support the underdog? Pot meet Kettle.
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Huh. Now where did I say that their advice doesn't work?|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Not sure what is more acurately labeled as dogma, people explaing how the market works, people with no idea how it works, but are willing to label as evil, or people that know how it works and try to imagine how evil it is for others.
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Oh yeah... I didn't.
I just meant that there's other ways to make money in this game, ranging from awesome to decent. Ways that seem to rub certain goats the wrong way. *shrug*
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You misunderstood. |
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
Huh. Now where did I say that their advice doesn't work?
Oh yeah... I didn't. I just meant that there's other ways to make money in this game, ranging from awesome to decent. Ways that seem to rub certain goats the wrong way. *shrug* |
And if that is what you meant, you might actually want to say something along those lines instead of fling poo.
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Well then it would be nice if those mods were more consistent with enforcing that rule. I see people using 'so many words' to such baseless and underhanded accusations on this board all the time.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
A mod actually, specifically warned me to not call people "stupid" in so many words.
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But for what it's worth, pardon my language. I'm still not convinced that anyone is going to be taking DevilYouKnow's words seriously, simply because he's saying things they don't want to hear. For some reason, people like to think that no one else's perceptions but their own actually count. But the collective perception of the players of this game most certainly does count, and if the non-market savvy folk outnumber the marketeers (and I'm certain that they do, by a very large number), then their perceptions of the market, however mistaken they might be, will be seen as true and regardless of what we actually know.
So we all can either laugh at their collective ignorance (and make the occasional jerk-moves on the market, ahem!), or, you know, actually try and steer them down the correct path by trying as hard as we can to ensure that the market is seen as consistent. Of course all of us here know that trying to manipulate NMIs on the market even for a short while is pure folly, but I'm not convinced that just any old random player who happens to see such manipulation in action is going to know what's actually happening or why. They're just going to see crazy prices, get exasperated by it and maybe whine to their friends about it, who will likely just take their word for it.
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| I would like to point out that there's a difference between calling someone a "hater" and actually disproving their argument. I'm waiting for the "loveless geek living with parents" level of argument to start. |
Anyone else notice how when cheese was brought into this thread that it took off again?
Evil American Dairy Council at work here?
/ponder
@Fulmens:
My Fiance had her post deleted today for that very thing. I believe the term she used was "moron", not stupid, but its same same to me. Her post was apt, and in reality, the guy deserved it. But alas, the great deities that are the forum moderators stepped in, deleted it, and slapped her hand via pm over the whole thing.
And since we have diverged into poo flinging...
Nethergoat is still the worst horse ever. Srsly.
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Man, some of us spend our time shouting it from the rooftops, beating people over the heads with market knowledge, and still they refuse to learn.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Presuming your unsupported generalization has any validity, it ain't my fault if "most players" aren't bright enough to click the NPC and learn how the thing they're using works.
I do know how it works and I happily share my knowledge with anyone curious enough to ask. I don't concern myself with the incurious and uninformed. The information is available, it's not like anyone is forcing them to stay ignorant. |
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Compared to the Taxibots, the helpful market experts in this game are far, far less visible.|
Originally Posted by heffroncm
Man, some of us spend our time shouting it from the rooftops, beating people over the heads with market knowledge, and still they refuse to learn.
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For instance, have you ever taken the time while inside the game to stop at a WentWorth's or a Black Market truck and just share a few tips, and maybe take a few questions and correct certain misconceptions?
It's a perfect opportunity to use the 'lecture' emote.
Yeah, actually, I have. I've given exact specifics on current, in-demand niches that can make people hundreds of million for little investment, while standing in Wentworth's watching that IO because I'm selling it, and seen nothing happen. And then I got flamed for being evil.
I've given lengthy instructions in /help and a couple global channels on how to find a cheap recipe, buy it and the salvage overnight in 3 minutes of work, craft and list the items in 5 more minutes, and let tens of millions of inf roll in over the course of the weekend for your ten minutes of effort. I was actually kicked out of one channel for teaching people to manipulate the market.
I've explained in Atlas Park broadcast exactly how to go from a level 2 fresh out of the Tutorial to a millionaire in an hour with no effort, and gotten many hate tells for my efforts.
Hell, I wrote an extremely newby-friendly thread listing little tips and tricks on making the market work, from the point of view of someone that starter playing the game in early August. Less than two months later, I'm a multi-billionaire and dumbfounded at why so many people are so poor.
People don't want to learn.
*edit* Sorry for the rant. Seriously, though, it's become a bit of a personal crusade to educate the blindered masses as to how MUCH influence there is and how EASY it is to get tons of it. Every time I give someone 10M and hear back the next day about how they have over 100M, I feel like I've accomplished some small part of my goal.
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I actually always read, then re-read every post I disagree with. I try to see it from the other person's side and will often take an unpopular side in a discussion just to make people think. |
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
Well then it would be nice if those mods were more consistent with enforcing that rule. I see people using 'so many words' to such baseless and underhanded accusations on this board all the time.
But for what it's worth, pardon my language. I'm still not convinced that anyone is going to be taking DevilYouKnow's words seriously, simply because he's saying things they don't want to hear. For some reason, people like to think that no one else's perceptions but their own actually count. But the collective perception of the players of this game most certainly does count, and if the non-market savvy folk outnumber the marketeers (and I'm certain that they do, by a very large number), then their perceptions of the market, however mistaken they might be, will be seen as true and regardless of what we actually know. So we all can either laugh at their collective ignorance (and make the occasional jerk-moves on the market, ahem!), or, you know, actually try and steer them down the correct path by trying as hard as we can to ensure that the market is seen as consistent. Of course all of us here know that trying to manipulate NMIs on the market even for a short while is pure folly, but I'm not convinced that just any old random player who happens to see such manipulation in action is going to know what's actually happening or why. They're just going to see crazy prices, get exasperated by it and maybe whine to their friends about it, who will likely just take their word for it. I am a nerd, not a geek. |
I have but a single requirement for anyone wanting to have a discussion with me though:
Be able to back up your opinions with something other than "Because I said so". In my post above, in which hurt his feelings (sorry for that), I show over and over that his arguments can't stand on their own merit. They site "fact" but totally discount the flip side to said "fact". Its like saying: "I was hit by a bus" but totally disregarding the fact that you were playing frogger in the middle of a busy highway during rush hour.
Heck, if you want to, his side seems to boil down to:
Perception says that marketeers do bad things to ruin the economy because they can.
Yet, he persists with drawing attention to a thread which is "detrimental" to the welfare of the perception of the masses.
He also says:
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| Well done on giving truth to the rumor that salvage is being controlled by ebillers. Things like this are the exact reason I don't identify myself as a marketeer or as ebill. |
He claims to not identify himself as a marketeer and yet:
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| Yes, if your focus in the game is making money ROI is very important and of course that much money is nothing to ebillers (I include myself in that as well) because we will always make more money. It is not even possible for us to be broke. |
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| Except that paying 10 or 20 times the vendor price should be sufficient. I gladly pay that and my friends do as well, and people who list at vendor price know that either way they make the same money at least and in likelyhood far more. |
He claims that his friends are "too busy" to wait for salvage to be bought. I showed him that I purchased one for 500 while Goat was doing this. I waited 2 minutes. This is conceivably too long for him:
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What this arguement "wait around for things to be priced so you can afford them" ignores that it wastes real life time waitiing for artifically created price hike to drop. You show me a store or some trick in the game where I can add actual minutes back to my life and I will gladly argue that no harm is done by my waiting. You are wasting my real life time I could be playing with my newly crafted whatever just because you want to see if you can do it. |
He talks about artificial salvage shortages. He talks about how supply is suddenly gobbled up by an evil marketeer doing this to spike the price. He asks why the prices on salvage are what they are... right after showing us why supply is limited.
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You are still missing the point I am trying to make. They know what they get for circuit board. They don't even bother listing it cause it drops all the time. Plenty of supply. (Paying 8 times the vendor price doesn't bother them so there actually is a reason to list them) Except for flippers and people jerking the prices around, why would something like this ever cost more than say 2 or 3 thousand? |
When Devil is able to come here, give credible, non-speculative arguments that hold some actual merit, I will be the first one to look them over. I may not agree with them, but I will give them a fair shake.
As for you Coyote... when you can come here and give an argument that you aren't just regurgitating from someone who posted above you, then I'll give you some actual credit. No offense, but man, get an opinion already.
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Gosh, I'm sorry! Your experience has been very different from mine. |
Originally Posted by heffroncm
Yeah, actually, I have. I've given exact specifics on current, in-demand niches that can make people hundreds of million for little investment, while standing in Wentworth's watching that IO because I'm selling it, and seen nothing happen. And then I got flamed for being evil.
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| I've given lengthy instructions in /help and a couple global channels on how to find a cheap recipe, buy it and the salvage overnight in 3 minutes of work, craft and list the items in 5 more minutes, and let tens of millions of inf roll in over the course of the weekend for your ten minutes of effort. I was actually kicked out of one channel for teaching people to manipulate the market. |
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| I've explained in Atlas Park broadcast exactly how to go from a level 2 fresh out of the Tutorial to a millionaire in an hour with no effort, and gotten many hate tells for my efforts. |
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| Hell, I wrote an extremely newby-friendly thread listing little tips and tricks on making the market work, from the point of view of someone that starter playing the game in early August. Less than two months later, I'm a multi-billionaire and dumbfounded at why so many people are so poor. |
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| People don't want to learn. |
Oh, I'm keeping at it, and I've had a few grateful people come back as I mentioned in my edit. It's just disheartening how many people don't want free money!
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Since your entire thread is arguing about what Devil said and not me, I'm not about to try and guess at what his thoughts were when he can come in here and defend his own words if he wants to.|
Originally Posted by Misaligned
When Devil is able to come here, give credible, non-speculative arguments that hold some actual merit, I will be the first one to look them over. I may not agree with them, but I will give them a fair shake.
As for you Coyote... when you can come here and give an argument that you aren't just regurgitating from someone who posted above you, then I'll give you some actual credit. No offense, but man, get an opinion already. |
But if I'm 'regurgitating someone else's opinion' by simply agreeing with something someone else brought up (re: the perception of the market by non-marketeers), then I can turn around and tell you exactly the same thing. So go get an original opinion that has nothing to do with what anyone else has said around here and then we'll start talking... or whatever. 9.9
This will be my last word on this:
Perception of marketeers is what it is and will stay where it is because of the following reasons which are never likely to change:
- Marketeers move less product on a piece by piece basis than the rest of the community as a whole.
- Marketeers generally try to list their products below the going rate to ensure that product moves. If you are listing higher than the going rate and attempting to make a profit, you're doing it wrong (in most cases).
- The average player will generally list AND pay what the last 5 sold for, regardless of what is actually available. People pay 50k for salvage listed at 1inf every day in this game.
- When a product does spike, for any reason, the "common folk" are the ones who will list their wares slightly (or grossly) above the current going rate. This causes an "imaginary supply". Items which will never sell due to them being placed outside of the range that people are willing to pay. These items sit, showing 178 additional "whatevers" and you get mad because you can't buy one of these for a "reasonable" price.
- Just like in real life, your items are only worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it. If you "value" an item that people are willing to pay $50 for at $1,000,000 its still only worth $50.
This is a perception you will never be able to change until the day that the marketeers can figure out a way to actually control a very significant portion of the incoming supply. In a system where everything drops from everything, that aint gonna happen.
I will also note that there are no less than 25 threads on the front page of this forum at the time of this post. I will note that 3 deal with salvage prices in one way shape or form. 1 is a marketeer "attempting" to be evil and failing (sorry Chaos - I call em like i see em) , at least 1 is a guide about how to make inf for very little effort, and I have a thread in which I am giving away hundreds of millions of inf to an individual for simply posting a number.
Yet here we sit, discussing the "perception" of people who come to these boards and crying about how this single thread is devastating our public relations.
*shakes head and wanders out of this sorry thread to go play with the big kids*
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I wouldn't exactly call it 'free'. More like, 'just a little bit of your time and some patience are required'.|
Originally Posted by heffroncm
Oh, I'm keeping at it, and I've had a few grateful people come back as I mentioned in my edit. It's just disheartening how many people don't want free money!
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I suspect that the majority of the players of this game are a lot younger than you or I (not that I'm attempting to guess your age mind you, but you seem rather intelligent), and thus impatient. Tomorrow doesn't exist for them and they are a bunch of whiny little Veruca Salts; they want it now! They're the ones who blast through the game's content in a race to get to level 50. The ones who loved to farm the heck out AE. They're twitchy and they can't stand still. If this was a single player game, they'd have figured out what cheat codes gave them all the loot long ago!
Luckily, I think most of them will outgrow that stage.
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I was talking about inside the game, not here on the boards. The posters on this board very likely only represent, at most, maybe 10% of the entire player population.|
Originally Posted by Misaligned
Yet here we sit, discussing the "perception" of people who come to these boards and crying about how this single thread is devastating our public relations.
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| *shakes head and wanders out of this sorry thread to go play with the big kids* |
The day an aggresive internet poster can hurt my feelings is the day I cut the fiber optic.
Dude, I was trying be civil and back out from this debate becasue it is clear, no matter how many times I say it, that it is irrelevent whether goat cornered the market or not.
Did he create an artificial shortage?
Was it visible to anyone who went in to the market during that time to bid/sell on NMI?
Does it make the market look unstable/weird/WTF?
If my points are so off the mark and so obviously the work of deranged mind, why are you all so worked up?
I didn't start this thread pointing out the manipulation. It's a public thread, open to comment to anyone, so don't blame me if it didn't turn out to be a congratutory pat on the back.
All the rest of my comments were made mostly in reply to your posts. You extracted the parts you want to bait with. Quoting out of context, setting up strawmen, reductionism, can ad hominem be far behind? Oh yes, I forgot I'm "ilk"
With all the unpleasantness coming from so many, why in the name of nyarlothotep would I want to continue to beat my head against the wall? I thought you guys cared about the health of the market overall. I wanted to talk about something I think is bad for that overall health. My mistake.
It seems what you really want is to be told how clever you, how e-bill you are and how anyone who disagrees or has a different view just doesn't get it or is clueless. It really seems like bunker mentality.
If you really can't see how all this might look to someone on the outside of the marketeering club, then you are absolutely correct. There is no point to continued discussion. But if it will make you happy go ahead fling some more, fire away man.
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I have never seen any evidence that Nethergoat disapproves of any way of making inf in this game. I have seen evidence that Nethergoat believes, with good evidence, that none of the others are as effective in terms of inf earned per hour as the markets.
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Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
I just meant that there's other ways to make money in this game, ranging from awesome to decent. Ways that seem to rub certain goats the wrong way. *shrug*
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Are you reading this board with your eyes closed?
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Originally Posted by seebs
I have never seen any evidence that Nethergoat disapproves of any way of making inf in this game. I have seen evidence that Nethergoat believes, with good evidence, that none of the others are as effective in terms of inf earned per hour as the markets.
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How does someone going for the crafting badge eat up a supply in the 100s? It only takes a dozen or two of a particular salvage to get the badge, and then you're done.
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Originally Posted by Pitho
Circuit board shortages aren't artificial. Like you said, your friends don't even bother listing em most of the time because they're so common. Likewise, because they're so common no one (with any sense) is ever going to try flipping them to stabilize prices and get some inf out of it, there's no profit in it. People fight the enemy groups that drop tech salvage a LOT more often than ones that drop arcane salvage, so anything tech is going to be more common. 99% of the time they're not worth carrying around to list, so a small portion of the supply is ever listed.
They are, however, still used in a lot of good recipes. This includes level 30-40 generic Recharge IOs. Someone going for the badge can easily eat up supply of all the circuit boards. Or someone just crafting for some characters of theirs or something. Basically they're so common that they're usually not worth listing, but just useful enough that the small amount that is listed gets bought out every once in a while. |
Please buff Ice Control.
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It's mostly farmers who pay these extreme prices. If there is anyone deserving of the ire of the casual level 50 warshade just trying to purple out his 2nd build and slot up some Panacea IOs for his casual PvPing, it's the farmers. Without the billions of inf they generate, we marketeers couldn't get our billions from playing the market.|
Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow
Indeed, the ones paying millions for these things were probably other marketeers, who else would have the cash to waste on something like that?
It makes it seems like marketeers spend all thier time playing with themselves.  |
RagManX
"if the market were religion Fulmens would be Moses and you'd be L. Ron Hubbard. " --Nethergoat to eryq2
The economy is not broken. The players are
(And you have plans to go on an family-only TF, or ski-trip, or whatever afterward.)
Then again, you can always buy Nevermelting Ice beforehand as well. It doesn't melt!
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html