For what it's worth, I only ever sell my common salvage drops at 1 inf.
Actually, I also sell my uncommon salvage drops for 1 inf.
Well, I do that with my rare salvage drops, too. There's just not that much money in trying to flip salvage, period.
Unless it's Alchemical Silver... >.>
Ha, You guys should be happy that they don't listen to me. Otherwise, there would be fewer sheep to be sheared by artifically created shortages.
You are still missing the point I am trying to make. They know what they get for circuit board. They don't even bother listing it cause it drops all the time. Plenty of supply. (Paying 8 times the vendor price doesn't bother them so there actually is a reason to list them)
Except for flippers and people jerking the prices around, why would something like this ever cost more than say 2 or 3 thousand?
The fraustration that this kind of thing generates is genuine. Saying it is all thier fault for not being patiant is ignoring that the reason that they have to choose between overpaying or waiting is completely artifical.
Again, what is the point of this kind of manipulation?
Just to do it?
Oh dear, now you've gone and upset them. The natives will be restless!
Quote:
Well - here's the whole kit and caboodle so to speak.|
Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow
Ha, You guys should be happy that they don't listen to me. Otherwise, there would be fewer sheep to be sheared by artifically created shortages.
You are still missing the point I am trying to make. They know what they get for circuit board. They don't even bother listing it cause it drops all the time. Plenty of supply. (Paying 8 times the vendor price doesn't bother them so there actually is a reason to list them) Except for flippers and people jerking the prices around, why would something like this ever cost more than say 2 or 3 thousand? The fraustration that this kind of thing generates is genuine. Saying it is all thier fault for not being patiant is ignoring that the reason that they have to choose between overpaying or waiting is completely artifical. Again, what is the point of this kind of manipulation? Just to do it? |
Yes, it is done "because we can".
Also, and read my post above:
It really has no impact on the game for people who need to pee.
What?
Bid your stuff, and go to the bathroom. That is generally more than enough time to actually purchase what you're bidding on.
3rd!
If your character is "broke" and you only have 45 million, that 50,000 you bid on salvage X instead of 5,000 is not a big deal. At all. Ever.
In fact, the 45k difference you pay for getting it right this instant vs. getting in 2 minutes amounts to 0.1% of your total cash supply. And that's if you're "broke".
If you're SO BROKE that 45k actually does cut into your funds in a serious way, click on my sig and fix it in less than a week.
It is NOT completely artificial. Price spikes like the one Nethergoat was creating happen ALL THE TIME on their own. Why? Because people like your friends delete it when they are out running missions, then want to buy it when they get back to Wentworth's.
The drop rate of an item is only peripherally associated with the market supply: You need to have sufficient people willing to list a low-Inf item in their limited sell slots. This raises the price, because the people who are taking the time to sell it want to get their money's worth out of using the slot.
There is no secret cabal of mustachio-twirling villains playing with the prices. What Nethergoat demonstrated in this thread is that it is essentially impossible for someone to do so. In the midst of his attempts to buy up everything, low cost pieces were still bought. The "aftermath" was over in minutes. The entire thing, from start of him buying to end where people were still COMPLETELY WILLING to spend millions on a piece of Common salvage they could have gotten in seconds elsewhere, lasted less than an hour. In all, he accomplished nothing but handing out piles of Inf to people who likely wouldn't have gotten it otherwise. To insinuate otherwise is to grant him more credit for power over the market than he deserves.
No offence, Nethergoat.
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Originally Posted by heffroncm
There is no secret cabal of mustachio-twirling villains playing with the prices.
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That's right!
>.>
<.<
Move along. Nothing to see here...
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Wait, that doesn't sound ebil at all!
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Originally Posted by heffroncm
What Nethergoat demonstrated in this thread is that it is essentially impossible for someone to do so. In the midst of his attempts to buy up everything, low cost pieces were still bought. The "aftermath" was over in minutes. The entire thing, from start of him buying to end where people were still COMPLETELY WILLING to spend millions on a piece of Common salvage they could have gotten in seconds elsewhere, lasted less than an hour. In all, he accomplished nothing but handing out piles of Inf to people who likely wouldn't have gotten it otherwise. To insinuate otherwise is to grant him more credit for power over the market than he deserves.
No offence, Nethergoat. |
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
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Except that paying 10 or 20 times the vendor price should be sufficient. I gladly pay that and my friends do as well, and people who list at vendor price know that either way they make the same money at least and in likelyhood far more.|
Originally Posted by heffroncm
The drop rate of an item is only peripherally associated with the market supply: You need to have sufficient people willing to list a low-Inf item in their limited sell slots. This raises the price, because the people who are taking the time to sell it want to get their money's worth out of using the slot. |
Further, the only people who put such an outrageous price on a marketing slots are marketers. Most players rarely use the slots they have and have no idea of slot/profit ratio anymore than they have a idea of time/merit ratio.
It is only people like us who focus on the need to turn slots over like our RL livelyhood depened on it who think like this.
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I disagree. What he demonstrated is that it is possible for an individual to manipulate market prices simply because he felt like doing so. |
Originally Posted by heffroncm
What Nethergoat demonstrated in this thread is that it is essentially impossible for someone to do so. In the midst of his attempts to buy up everything, low cost pieces were still bought. The "aftermath" was over in minutes. The entire thing, from start of him buying to end where people were still COMPLETELY WILLING to spend millions on a piece of Common salvage they could have gotten in seconds elsewhere, lasted less than an hour. In all, he accomplished nothing but handing out piles of Inf to people who likely wouldn't have gotten it otherwise.
|
Further, it lends credence to the perception that the market is at the mercy of the marketeers. How can you convince someone it is not when something like this occurs?
If you are the person who needed a nevermelting ice in the hour you were playing it doesn't matter how long it lasted.
Players who aren't interested in the market (and don't read these forums) will assume, rightly, that some marketeer used his money to drive up the prices of an insignifcant piece of salavage for some reason. (profit most likely they will assume)
Indeed, the ones paying millions for these things were probably other marketeers, who else would have the cash to waste on something like that?
It makes it seems like marketeers spend all thier time playing with themselves.
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Yes, if your focus in the game is making money ROI is very important and of course that much money is nothing to ebillers (I include myself in that as well) because we will always make more money. It is not even possible for us to be broke.|
Originally Posted by Misaligned
If your character is "broke" and you only have 45 million, that 50,000 you bid on salvage X instead of 5,000 is not a big deal. At all. Ever. In fact, the 45k difference you pay for getting it right this instant vs. getting in 2 minutes amounts to 0.1% of your total cash supply. And that's if you're "broke". If you're SO BROKE that 45k actually does cut into your funds in a serious way, click on my sig and fix it in less than a week. |
What this arguement "wait around for things to be priced so you can afford them" ignores that it wastes real life time waitiing for artifically created price hike to drop.
You show me a store or some trick in the game where I can add actual minutes back to my life and I will gladly argue that no harm is done by my waiting. You are wasting my real life time I could be playing with my newly crafted whatever just because you want to see if you can do it.
Quote:
You persist. I persist. You ignore me. I has a sad |
Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow
Except that paying 10 or 20 times the vendor price should be sufficient. I gladly pay that and my friends do as well, and people who list at vendor price know that either way they make the same money at least and in likelyhood far more.
Further, the only people who put such an outrageous price on a marketing slots are marketers. Most players rarely use the slots they have and have no idea of slot/profit ration anymore than they have a idea of time/merit ratio. It is only people like us who focus on the need to turn slots over like our RL livelyhood depened on it who think like this. |
There is nothing "evil" about paying buy it right this instant prices. In fact, Goat has gone to great lengths to show that marketeers aren't actually the ones listing things for ridiculous prices. There is no (good) marketeer that is listing NMI for over 3 mil per. I have no idea who's doing that, but it sure isn't a (good) marketeer.
As for the "I don't play enough / I'm not a marketeer / I don't care about maximizing my slots" answers, as stated by many many people, you can always wait. And you needn't wait terribly long in most cases. Even coming to this game from WoW, a system that is nothing like this, I figured out in short order that I can bid on something, then wait 2 minutes and most likely get it.
For your other questions, let's take a look at what actually happened:
Goat bought out (or tried to, he was not successful as I indicated by my ability to purchase one for 500 while he was doing this) all of the NMI for under 3 mil.
He created a shortage. This shortage lasted less than an hour, at a less than ideal time of day.
During that shortage, people who were unwilling to wait a few minutes chose instead to buy it now for 1 mil. To them, their time I guess is worth it. The people who were willing to wait a small amount of time were still able to purchase NMI for less than your stated "10 to 20 times the vendor price" (5k is 20x).
During this shortage, people who are like your friends came to the market, saw that their NMI was worth something, and listed it for very high prices. Some of it sold. Some of it did not.
Less than an hour after beginning, prices were back to normal.
So, for 1 hour 1 piece of salvage had a small price spike.
During that hour, people who are completely unwilling to pay the going prices or wait a few minutes have other options for obtaining that item. Granted, any other option is going to involve more than a few minutes, so I guess they're just fooked, eh?
What I will counter to you is this:
You are working under the assumption that all marketeers make most of the profit. You also seem to be working under the assumption that casual gamers who do not marketeer somehow only get the shaft end on things like this.
From your assumptions, casual players never list items for more than the are actually worth. Casual players always pay premiums for everything they purchase. And casual players are always on the receiving end of some price-fixer.
If the casual player lists his NMI during Goat's fun for 250 inf and someone else buys it for 1 million (a price they are willing to pay), where is the evil marketeer getting rich off of this?
Also - who listed all of those NMI's at over 3 mil? Marketeers?
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No hate, just an observation:|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
so, there were no 'firewalls' when I hopped on tonight for my evening purge of excess stock, but there are approximately 270 Nevermelting Ice's listed for more than a million inf.
Interesting! |
This makes you look like a 12-year-old who likes to spray-paint his name on sidewalks to annoy the grownups. Why are you wasting your time and ours?
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Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow
Yes, if your focus in the game is making money ROI is very important and of course that much money is nothing to ebillers (I include myself in that as well) because we will always make more money. It is not even possible for us to be broke.
What this arguement "wait around for things to be priced so you can afford them" ignores that it wastes real life time waitiing for artifically created price hike to drop. You show me a store or some trick in the game where I can add actual minutes back to my life and I will gladly argue that no harm is done by my waiting. You are wasting my real life time I could be playing with my newly crafted whatever just because you want to see if you can do it. |
Go pee. Get a drink. Talk to your friends?
Or, you can go play other MMOs. Try WoW. You wait a week to get into a raid. You spend hours killing bosses until you down the one that drops the item you want. And it doesn't drop. Now you're f'd for another week. Good game. Have this happen for 6 months and see if you don't change this whacked perception about how valuable 2 minutes is to you.
People pissing and moaning about 2 minutes or even 1 day for something that is SO accessible in this game is really starting to piss me off.
Don't like the price - here's you options:
Leave a bid up
Go farm it yourself
Go run AE missions and buy one with AE tickets.
There's 3 options that don't involve you paying more than you want to for pixels....
Don't like the options? The get lost. No one's ever gonna make you happy.
Also, don't come here claiming that time is a premium, then ***** when your "premium" costs you money in the game. If 2 minutes is "too long" then you have valued your time at higher than the price you are unwilling to pay. Buy it. Shut up. And go back to playing.
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O.o|
Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow
They know what they get for circuit board. They don't even bother listing it cause it drops all the time. Plenty of supply. (Paying 8 times the vendor price doesn't bother them so there actually is a reason to list them)
Except for flippers and people jerking the prices around, why would something like this ever cost more than say 2 or 3 thousand? |
My theory is, the magical sparkly salvage fairies who list all the salvage that appears in WW are slacking off.
Or maybe other people can't be bothered to list them either, which drives down supply, which drive up prices until more people think they're worth listing again.
Nah. It must be the fairies.
Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
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Circuit board shortages aren't artificial. Like you said, your friends don't even bother listing em most of the time because they're so common. Likewise, because they're so common no one (with any sense) is ever going to try flipping them to stabilize prices and get some inf out of it, there's no profit in it. People fight the enemy groups that drop tech salvage a LOT more often than ones that drop arcane salvage, so anything tech is going to be more common. 99% of the time they're not worth carrying around to list, so a small portion of the supply is ever listed.|
Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow
You are still missing the point I am trying to make. They know what they get for circuit board. They don't even bother listing it cause it drops all the time. Plenty of supply. (Paying 8 times the vendor price doesn't bother them so there actually is a reason to list them)
Except for flippers and people jerking the prices around, why would something like this ever cost more than say 2 or 3 thousand? |
They are, however, still used in a lot of good recipes. This includes level 30-40 generic Recharge IOs. Someone going for the badge can easily eat up supply of all the circuit boards. Or someone just crafting for some characters of theirs or something.
Basically they're so common that they're usually not worth listing, but just useful enough that the small amount that is listed gets bought out every once in a while.
Culex's resistance guide
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Just an observation, mind you, but it sounds like you have no problems waiting at long traffic lights.
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Originally Posted by Misaligned
People pissing and moaning about 2 minutes or even 1 day for something that is SO accessible in this game is really starting to piss me off.
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How in the world do you suppose casual players get the notion that if they just hold out they will get 3 million for NMI? |
Originally Posted by Misaligned
You persist. I persist. You ignore me. I has a sad
There is nothing "evil" about paying buy it right this instant prices. In fact, Goat has gone to great lengths to show that marketeers aren't actually the ones listing things for ridiculous prices. There is no (good) marketeer that is listing NMI for over 3 mil per. I have no idea who's doing that, but it sure isn't a (good) marketeer. As for the "I don't play enough / I'm not a marketeer / I don't care about maximizing my slots" answers, as stated by many many people, you can always wait. And you needn't wait terribly long in most cases. Even coming to this game from WoW, a system that is nothing like this, I figured out in short order that I can bid on something, then wait 2 minutes and most likely get it. For your other questions, let's take a look at what actually happened: Goat bought out (or tried to, he was not successful as I indicated by my ability to purchase one for 500 while he was doing this) all of the NMI for under 3 mil. He created a shortage. This shortage lasted less than an hour, at a less than ideal time of day. During that shortage, people who were unwilling to wait a few minutes chose instead to buy it now for 1 mil. To them, their time I guess is worth it. The people who were willing to wait a small amount of time were still able to purchase NMI for less than your stated "10 to 20 times the vendor price" (5k is 20x). During this shortage, people who are like your friends came to the market, saw that their NMI was worth something, and listed it for very high prices. Some of it sold. Some of it did not. Less than an hour after beginning, prices were back to normal. So, for 1 hour 1 piece of salvage had a small price spike. During that hour, people who are completely unwilling to pay the going prices or wait a few minutes have other options for obtaining that item. Granted, any other option is going to involve more than a few minutes, so I guess they're just fooked, eh? What I will counter to you is this: You are working under the assumption that all marketeers make most of the profit. You also seem to be working under the assumption that casual gamers who do not marketeer somehow only get the shaft end on things like this. From your assumptions, casual players never list items for more than the are actually worth. Casual players always pay premiums for everything they purchase. And casual players are always on the receiving end of some price-fixer. If the casual player lists his NMI during Goat's fun for 250 inf and someone else buys it for 1 million (a price they are willing to pay), where is the evil marketeer getting rich off of this? Also - who listed all of those NMI's at over 3 mil? Marketeers? |
I would argue that shortages like this one are EXACTLY why some marketeer wannabe lists NMI for 3 million on a non played alt.
Someone sure did. But would that have happened without the artifically created shortage? If the goat needed all that ice for a party or something, then it would a legit shortage and no harm, no foul. But just cuz?
Again, I don't care about who made money and who lost money on this deal. The fact that in confirms what people already think does.
If your goal is to convince people that marketeers control prices and jerk them around on a whim to conduct an experiment than- well done.
It confirms people's perception that the market is complicated, capricious and absolutely too much effort to participate in.
This isn't true (for the most part) but if most players believe that "the prices are insane" and "Marketeers control the prices" and "It's not worth the RL time to learn" then the truth is irrelevent.
If people wish to pay all that money, that is their choice. I'm not judgiing them or even people who decide to do this kind of market research. It just seems pointless and confirms what people think of marketeers and convices people that the market is not the way to get "stufz".
Which, if you go back to my original post in this thread was what I said and exactly why I do not identify myself as e-bill or a marketeer.
PS. BTW, I am not ignoring you, I just don't agree with some of your points, as apparently you do mine. No worries. I don't assume animus. You don't know me well enough to dislike me. Not yet anyway!
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I can see that, in fact that was how I noticed that the price were pretty ridiculous (darn fieldcrafting badge) but I usually list them if I have space and nothing better to list on a lowbie alt. They are common as you say so getting a stack together is no work. My lowbies don't craft so the slots just go to waste other wise.
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Originally Posted by Pitho
Circuit board shortages aren't artificial. Like you said, your friends don't even bother listing em most of the time because they're so common. Likewise, because they're so common no one (with any sense) is ever going to try flipping them to stabilize prices and get some inf out of it, there's no profit in it. People fight the enemy groups that drop tech salvage a LOT more often than ones that drop arcane salvage, so anything tech is going to be more common. 99% of the time they're not worth carrying around to list, so a small portion of the supply is ever listed.
They are, however, still used in a lot of good recipes. This includes level 30-40 generic Recharge IOs. Someone going for the badge can easily eat up supply of all the circuit boards. Or someone just crafting for some characters of theirs or something. Basically they're so common that they're usually not worth listing, but just useful enough that the small amount that is listed gets bought out every once in a while. |
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I keep reading 'NMI' as "Non Maskable Interrupt". :P
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Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow
How in the world do you suppose casual players get the notion that if they just hold out they will get 3 million for NMI?
|
Y'see, things like this are why I stopped my "firewall" project.
I used to have 10 of each midrange salvage up at "slightly high" prices (30K or 55K or something) and check 'em once or twice a day. I did that for a year and a half.
Sometimes random shortages would cause my supply of something to sell out. Sometimes random shortages would cause PART my supply of something to sell out. (I'd see 7 Inert Gas sold, 3 left in the stack.)
If you really want to do something for your friends, just log in to an underused character with 12 slots, pick a category (midrange tech, high-range magic, whatever) and set yourself up with 10 for sale of each and 10 bidding. When one sells out, flip the bidding over to the for-sale, put up a new bid.
Check it once or twice a day. If you're advanced, you set up four of these- midlevel tech, midlevel magic, high level tech and high level magic.
What's that? It's inconvenient? Well then tell your friends to shut up, cause you're obviously not willing to help them.
I did my year and a half. It's your turn.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow
How in the world do you suppose casual players get the notion that if they just hold out they will get 3 million for NMI?
I would argue that shortages like this one are EXACTLY why some marketeer wannabe lists NMI for 3 million on a non played alt. Someone sure did. But would that have happened without the artifically created shortage? If the goat needed all that ice for a party or something, then it would a legit shortage and no harm, no foul. But just cuz? Again, I don't care about who made money and who lost money on this deal. The fact that in confirms what people already think does. If your goal is to convince people that marketeers control prices and jerk them around on a whim to conduct an experiment than- well done. It confirms people's perception that the market is complicated, capricious and absolutely too much effort to participate in. This isn't true (for the most part) but if most players believe that "the prices are insane" and "Marketeers control the prices" and "It's not worth the RL time to learn" then the truth is irrelevent. If people wish to pay all that money, that is their choice. I'm not judgiing them or even people who decide to do this kind of market research. It just seems pointless and confirms what people think of marketeers and convices people that the market is not the way to get "stufz". Which, if you go back to my original post in this thread was what I said and exactly why I do not identify myself as e-bill or a marketeer. PS. BTW, I am not ignoring you, I just don't agree with some of your points, as apparently you do mine. No worries. I don't assume animus. You don't know me well enough to dislike me. Not yet anyway! |
Blah blah blah perception is irrelevant. People will always believe that someone is screwing them until they get it for free. At which point they will believe that someone is screwing them because they should have had it for free... earlier.
People who have this "marketeers are evil and controlling the prices" theory, don't read this board. If they did, they'd have money. So your argument that Goat posting about it is moot.
And salvage. Really? Salvage? Why do we constantly pick the most ridiculous item in the game to show how evil people are? No one gives a rat's *** about spending 150 mil instead of 149,500,000 on that LotG proc - but sure as hell flip out if they gotta pay 100k for common salvage.
Way to take an extremely small percentage of the money that actually changes hands and blow it up into some huge drama.
Its like ******** about the world economy and using the price of gumballs as your example...
Its salvage. There will be another thousand for sale tomorrow. Get over it
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Never confuse truth with fact. Truth is always relative, but the facts are objective.|
Originally Posted by DevilYouKnow
This isn't true (for the most part) but if most players believe that "the prices are insane" and "Marketeers control the prices" and "It's not worth the RL time to learn" then the truth is irrelevent.
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The problem is that no one ever has all of the facts. In the absence of such data or empirical evidence, people are prone to filling in the gaps based on their own beliefs.
You see so many Non-Maskable-Interrupts for sale, but you have no idea what the asking prices on any of them are. You see so many bids for them, but you don't know what prices those bidders are asking. You also see that just recently a whole bunch of them sold for an incredibly outrageous price.
The conclusion you come to with only those three bits of information will be largely based on your experience, intuition and beliefs. Obviously, anyone who thinks the market is too unfair and too complex will have those beliefs reinforced; they'll remember that and similar events in a long list of evidence that the market is broken and needs to be fix because of "rampant and runaway prices".
This is kind of why anecdotal evidence is unreliable, but it's also why so many people swear by their own experiences while at the same time dismissing others' differing experiences.
Thank you, Fulmens, for reminding me of one of my favorite quotes:
Don't complain about a problem, fix it!
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I do list salvage like this. I usually list a stack of 10 for 2059 for common stuff and 5059 for uncommon stuff. I usually just do it with whatever drops but I can see that flipping would keep the supply constant.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Y'see, things like this are why I stopped my "firewall" project.
I used to have 10 of each midrange salvage up at "slightly high" prices (30K or 55K or something) and check 'em once or twice a day. I did that for a year and a half. Sometimes random shortages would cause my supply of something to sell out. Sometimes random shortages would cause PART my supply of something to sell out. (I'd see 7 Inert Gas sold, 3 left in the stack.) If you really want to do something for your friends, just log in to an underused character with 12 slots, pick a category (midrange tech, high-range magic, whatever) and set yourself up with 10 for sale of each and 10 bidding. When one sells out, flip the bidding over to the for-sale, put up a new bid. Check it once or twice a day. If you're advanced, you set up four of these- midlevel tech, midlevel magic, high level tech and high level magic. What's that? It's inconvenient? Well then tell your friends to shut up, cause you're obviously not willing to help them. I did my year and a half. It's your turn. |
For my friends, I keep a lot of salvage in my base and when they whine I send it to them.
Disagree. The beauty of this consignment house is there is no time limit and no fee on bids. You simply put up whatever you are willing to pay for something, then come back for it later. Your friends are choosing to bid until they can get it immediately. No one is forcing them to pay more than 500 inf.