City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Fitness is dead; long live Fitness.

Aaron Islander

By Aaron Islander,
Posted on: 2010-09-04 13:04 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion

 

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Originally Posted by AquaJAWS View Post
I agree that just turning them on at level 1 would be awesome, but just thinking from a developer POV, minimize the balance effects on the existing game with this one change. If something became broken and completely too easy with those at low levels, they would have to change that, and so on and so on. Changing fewer things is always preferred over changing everything.
That's why I said what I did about Praetoria. The mobs there are tougher than many of the mobs in the original content. That makes me wonder if maybe they haven't already done what you suggest?

 

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Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman View Post
So you don't want your super heroes to be able to fly, run faster than a speeding bullet, leap tall buildings in a single bound, or vanish in a burst of light? Funny, that's the kind of stuff that helps me feel "super" in this game.
Want and need are two different things. If you want to fly and jump REALLY high, nothing is stopping you from doing it, but its not needed for the game to be fun at this point. Before ninja run, it was almost necessary to take a travel power in order to get around quickly, not completely, it was still very possible to run around at sprint + swift speed...but not very desirable. The addition of ninja run gave you a half super-speed/half super jump free power (after the booster pack charge of course) so it made getting around reasonably much more likely without taking a travel power. Concept-wise, yes people are still gonna want to super jump or super speed or fly or teleport. But it makes the selection of those powers more for concept and less a necessary utility in getting around since there are free alternatives.

 

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Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman View Post
That's why I said what I did about Praetoria. The mobs there are tougher than many of the mobs in the original content. That makes me wonder if maybe they haven't already done what you suggest?
Yeah, the edit came in after I was already replying so didn't see it until I had already hit post.

 

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Originally Posted by AquaJAWS View Post
Want and need are two different things. If you want to fly and jump REALLY high, nothing is stopping you from doing it, but its not needed for the game to be fun at this point. Before ninja run, it was almost necessary to take a travel power in order to get around quickly, not completely, it was still very possible to run around at sprint + swift speed...but not very desirable. The addition of ninja run gave you a half super-speed/half super jump free power (after the booster pack charge of course) so it made getting around reasonably much more likely without taking a travel power. Concept-wise, yes people are still gonna want to super jump or super speed or fly or teleport. But it makes the selection of those powers more for concept and less a necessary utility in getting around since there are free alternatives.
I see your point. I admit now that I have Ninja Run I'm more willing to delay travel powers into the 20's for my own builds. Freeing up those 2 power picks below 20 can make quite the difference for some builds. That's really the reason I'm happy about this change. It will allow me to take powers I really want when I really want them, instead of feeling like I "have to" take Fitness by 20 instead.

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Yeah, the edit came in after I was already replying so didn't see it until I had already hit post.
Sorry about that.

 

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Originally Posted by Santorican View Post
You crazy! This is going to be a huge change for people who take Health and Stamina, this will allow for much greater build flexibility and a huge increase in min/maxing, I already see how this is going to drastically change my dark/shield's build. I'll be able to increase my global recharge by at least 15% over my current build while keeping all of its survivability.
Yep. Anyone who doesn't think this is going to add even more power creep to the game & allow more min/maxing has probably never used an IO or increased their difficulty above the default.

 

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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
But then what was the point of increasing sprint, hover and fly's base speeds?

Having health and stamina at level 1... yea, great. Seriously. Anyone griping about the 1 to 20 game after that is smoking crack.

Welcome to easy mode from 1 to 50. Good thing we have a diff slider.
I'm not sure this makes the game easier so much as less frustrating. As far as I can tell, any fight or mission you can win with this change active, you could have won without it. Any build you can make with this change, you could have made without the change as long as you were willing to trade off the frustration of sitting around recovering blue after every couple fights.

 

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I think the biggest thing for me is -----> I HAVE A FREE POWER POOL TO SELECT<-----

Only on a few toons have I ever not taken 4 power pools and many times I'm torn between 2.

 

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Wow, this is great news. The build on my main (an Ice/Fire Tanker) is so tight that I could never get him an ancillary power pool without sacrificing power choices eleswhere. Now he'll finally be able to take Pyre Mastery or Mu Mastery for more AoE carnage. Woot!

Winteriel Ice/Fire/Soul Tanker | @TBoxer Global | City of Heroes R.I.P. (2004-2012)

 

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Originally Posted by Santorican View Post
You crazy! This is going to be a huge change for people who take Health and Stamina, this will allow for much greater build flexibility and a huge increase in min/maxing, I already see how this is going to drastically change my dark/shield's build. I'll be able to increase my global recharge by at least 15% over my current build while keeping all of its survivability.
That's not nearly as big an improvement as you could achieve if you could take three powers and slot them with all the slots you presumably use in Fitness today. (Most of my builds devote from 3-6 slots between Health and Stamina.)

Sorry, but for the vast majority of even min/max builds, I consider that bupkiss compared to the difference that someone will see who has no Fitness today and tomorrow suddenly gets Health and Stamina, even if they only put a base slot enhancement in it. How many seconds will that +15% recharge shave off of your key powers?

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen View Post
Yep. Anyone who doesn't think this is going to add even more power creep to the game & allow more min/maxing has probably never used an IO or increased their difficulty above the default.
You're referring to someone who quoted what I said, so I'm going with the idea that you're continuing his line of thought. If so, You might want to read what I actually said. I did not say it would have no effect on the high end.

I play the game on difficulties ranging from +2/x4 to +4/x8, and most of the 50s in my signature have builds worth 2-8 billion inf. I know how to min/max. The effect of this on people who have no stamina today is going to be more dramatic than the effect of giving most previously min/maxed builds three new powers but no new slots. Most builds that are already maxed out have picked all the best low hanging fruit they can get in zero slots. Adding three more powers at their base slot just isn't likely to add that much more to previously maxed out builds. In general, adding a small amount to an already large amount doesn't have a dramatic effect. The exceptions are in things like defense and DR and a lot of builds will actually already have the powers that do the most here.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

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Good change.

I am sure once it becomes inherent they will tune the fitness powers to be greater than one slot worth.

 

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Originally Posted by Hai Jinx View Post
Wouldn't it have just been easier to increase

  • Base recovery
  • Base Regeneration
  • Base Run Speed
  • Base Jump Speed/Height
To the level they would be roughly equal to what fitness is now
And then if people still wanted fitness they could choose to have it.

-----
Since fitness is going to be "gone" more or less, will we get more pools to choose from for varieties sake?
No, because what do you choose as your baseline? Fully slotted at the ED max, so that at level 20 (or level 1) you get the full recovery? What about the ability to slot IO sets in Health and Stamina?

Just removing Health and Stamina as places to slot things would decrease my effective recovery by around 35% on every tweaked out character I have. I'd really rather not have this benefit come wrapped in a net nerf.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099 View Post
I am sure once it becomes inherent they will tune the fitness powers to be greater than one slot worth.
Not that we know one way or the other, but why are you assuming they won't be slottable?

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

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Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Not that we know one way or the other, but why are you assuming they won't be slottable?
If they increase the base values, I think being able to slot on top would be a bit much...unless they want you to be able to have "six slot stamina" again. :P

 

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Originally Posted by Solie View Post
I think the biggest thing for me is -----> I HAVE A FREE POWER POOL TO SELECT<-----

Only on a few toons have I ever not taken 4 power pools and many times I'm torn between 2.
This was my first thought.

My second thought is how some toons don't start to feel fleshed out powers-wise until about 25th level because I had to "interrupt" their power-gaining path to take Swift/Hurdle, then Health and then Stamina in the late teens and early twenties. So glad that'll be out of the way.

 

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This is pure and utter win. Unless they don't let us slot them, in which case it won't be as cool. I'm hoping that they will though. I'm also hoping desperately that they'll give them to us from level 1. That would honestly fix the last major thing that I dislike about this game.

I'm guessing that everyone who took fitness pool powers will be given a mandatory respec once I19 goes live, similar to the way VEATs get them at level 24.

Edit: Just saw this

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Originally Posted by Caulderone View Post
This has now become the single greatest thing they've ever done to CoH in the time that I've been playing. Thank you devs, thank you SO much!

 

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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099 View Post
If they increase the base values, I think being able to slot on top would be a bit much...unless they want you to be able to have "six slot stamina" again. :P
... but why increase it at all? Just leave it exactly like it is now, and leave it slottable. This has the least possible disruption on the existing high end, giving previously maxed out builds the same recovery potential they have today, plus room for three new powers that they can't put more than one enhancer in without taking slots out of fitness powers.

Anyway, clarified above. Being slottable doesn't clearly imply the same power strength, but it seems fairly likely.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

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Hurray for more power selections. Not-so-hurray for the slot-hungry powers we're going to take instead.

They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!

@Starflier

 

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I'm super happy with this.

Unfun choice: I can either have enough powers or enough endurance to use the powers I would have taken but I couldn't.

Fun choice: I have enough powers and endurance, and I get to decide what to slot or not to slot.

Right now, builds for many ATs/combos are non-viable without Stamina -- it's viewed as a must-have power so much that people feel the need to mention when they think a build could conceivably be viable without Stamina. I've yet to hear of anything but /WP characters or MMs that is actually viable without Stamina. That's not fun, that's just a tax for a badly-balanced game design.

If we replace that with not as many slots as we might want... okay, so we have to make choices about which powers to slot, and which to have be a little less awesome. So maybe the THREE EXTRA POWERS I CAN HAVE will not be enhanced, and will be less useful than they would be if I could six-slot them... So what? They're free powers. I'm getting them for no cost, in effect, because they're replacing stuff I used to be forced to take just to be functional.

 

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This is a very nice surprise, I'm liking it. Seems like people are assuming that we'll all get the Stamina inherent power at level one -- we may not get it until level 20. And Health at 14, and Swurdle at level 6. Just guessing...

I hope (and assume) we can slot it though! It would be... bad... if we could not.

-Buxley


"Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened." -- Dr. Seuss

 

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Originally Posted by Buxley1 View Post
This is a very nice surprise, I'm liking it. Seems like people are assuming that we'll all get the Stamina inherent power at level one -- we may not get it until level 20. And Health at 14, and Swurdle at level 6. Just guessing...

I hope (and assume) we can slot it though! It would be... bad... if we could not.

-Buxley
Castle made an announcement that we're getting them all at 1 or 2, look 5 posts up.

 

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Originally Posted by Buxley1 View Post
This is a very nice surprise, I'm liking it. Seems like people are assuming that we'll all get the Stamina inherent power at level one -- we may not get it until level 20. And Health at 14, and Swurdle at level 6. Just guessing...

I hope (and assume) we can slot it though! It would be... bad... if we could not.

-Buxley
Castle stated we'd be getting these inherents at lvl 1 or 2 and they will be identical in function to the current fitness pool powers including being fully slottable.

Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30

 

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Originally Posted by Castle View Post
Yes, they are enhanceable and you can add up to 5 additional slots to them, just like the current versions. The powers are all available either at level 1 or 2 (I forget at the moment) -- no waiting 'til 20 for Stamina.
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Originally Posted by Caulderone View Post
Normally i'm not one to squee, but this has opened up an additional pool for me on many alts. It's exactly what i was hoping for when it was announced. Actually, it's even better because i wasn't expecting the whole to unlock at the start.

*insert loud squeeeee here*

Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...

 

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Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
Castle stated we'd be getting these inherents at lvl 1 or 2 and they will be identical in function to the current fitness pool powers including being fully slottable.
For builds that don't slot fitness powers I suppose it is a nice quality of life change.

I still plan on slotting the fitness powers though, which does open up a fair point brought up earlier. Yeah I have more powers to choose from, but I don't have enough slots to make them better.