I hate every Praetorian
By
Adumbrate,
Posted on: 2010-08-25 02:12 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Except I corrected your spelling and grammar. You chose to focus on that because you couldn;t refute anything else. And even the refudiation is weak.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Understood.
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It's nothing more or less than mass murder in my eyes. The murder of every man, woman and child in the entire city. Just because someone is killing people does not mean you can justify killing more, just to deny them victims.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
BTW - it's not the extermination of humanity. It's the destruction of the capital city. The head of the snake as it were and a legitimate military objective if you're trying to overthrow the government.
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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Building a straw man is exactly what you did. Nobody stated that Cole needed to remain in power forever. You argued against a viewpoint nobody espoused. You built a strawman. What's so difficult about accepting you've committed a fallacy when you committed a fallacy?|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
That's just plain fantasy. Washington, Kang (although he later sees the error of his ways), Whitworth, McKnight, Tilman and Anti-Matter are all devoted to the regime.
By your own admission, you haven't even played all the arcs, please take the time to so that you know what you're talking about. And please learn what a straw-man argument is before accusing someone of it. |
Incidentally, you're also poisoning the well here. I'll engage some hyperbole here for giggles to make my point: Someone doesn't have to indulge in child porn to know child porn is bad.
I don't have to continue arcs with people who think it's okay to blow up hospitals because "Cole is not a God." I see that there are some, like Cleopatra, in minority that stand against that. I also see they are an insanely staggeirngly small minority, and their leader is one of the lunatics. Having a few dozen good hearted people does not excuses mass murder of innocent unarmed civilians. Blowing up a hospital crosses the event horizon. If this does not immediately cause the two factions of the Resistance to split, then the factions themselves mean nothing at all. It should not have been just a matter of my character's moral event horizon being crossed, that should have resulted in a splinter group of factional war.
Oh and for all her talk about freedom and whatnot, Cleopatra sure had no problem trying to send ym character to her death with no foreknowledge of it. The absolute BEST case scenario, if that faction of the Resistance "toppled Cole" would be the exact same lies and "I know what's best for you" as the Cole administration, except without the power of Cole to actually hold back Hamidon.
I'll take fascism and life over fascism and death with the additional danger of being under the rule of proven psychopathic lunatics any day, thanks. At least some kid on the way to school is likely not to be fed to zombies just to make a point.
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This is correcting spelling and grammar:|
Originally Posted by NobleFox
Except I corrected your spelling and grammar. You chose to focus on that because you couldn;t refute anything else. And even the refudiation is weak.
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"Except" should be set off by a comma in the first sentence since you used it as a transitional;
You used a semi-colon instead of an apostrophe in the contraction "couldn't";
And refutation is how it's spelled.
I'm not really sure what you did!
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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That's a typo. The semicolon is directly next to the apostrophe. Refudiation is a cultural reference. Google it.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
This is correcting spelling and grammar:
"Except" should be set off by a comma in the first sentence since you used it as a transitional; You used a semi-colon instead of an apostrophe in the contraction "couldn't"; And refutation is how it's spelled. I'm not really sure what you did! |
and I read your edit: You're darn well right I'm talking about players. If you're RP'ing on a clearly OOC forum you'd better maybe take a break and do something else for a while before you end up like that kid who shot his parents thinking they'd respawn because he played too much Halo.
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Because you're wrong. Cole is immortal. You all have provided no means by which his government is to be defeated. Ergo, he will be in power forever. Whether you all will ACCEPT what you're arguing for or not is irrelevant.|
Originally Posted by NobleFox
Building a straw man is exactly what you did. Nobody stated that Cole needed to remain in power forever. You argued against a viewpoint nobody espoused. You built a strawman. What's so difficult about accepting you've committed a fallacy when you committed a fallacy?
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You've bought into the central premise of Cole's rule; that safety justifies tyranny.
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| I don't have to continue arcs with people who think it's okay to blow up hospitals because "Cole is not a God." I see that there are some, like Cleopatra, in minority that stand against that. I also see they are an insanely staggeirngly small minority, and their leader is one of the lunatics. Having a few dozen good hearted people does not excuses mass murder of innocent unarmed civilians. Blowing up a hospital crosses the event horizon. If this does not immediately cause the two factions of the Resistance to split, then the factions themselves mean nothing at all. It should not have been just a matter of my character's moral event horizon being crossed, that should have resulted in a splinter group of factional war. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
This thread seems to validate all the work the devs did on Going Rogue. A higher percentage of players seem to be reading the mission text in Praetoria.
--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
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No, that's a misspelling, you didn't mean the internet meme "refudiate" which requires someone to give up their ideals. You were using a form of the base refute. Incorrectly, I might add. The context betrays your dissembling. And you have the gall to call someone out about grammar. |
Originally Posted by NobleFox
That's a typo. The semicolon is directly next to the apostrophe. Refudiation is a cultural reference. Google it.
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And typo or not, it's still a grammatically incorrect use of punctuation.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I agree, I haven't had this much fun arguing about the game in years! |
Originally Posted by NuclearToast
This thread seems to validate all the work the devs did on Going Rogue. A higher percentage of players seem to be reading the mission text in Praetoria.
--NT |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Originally Posted by NuclearToast
This thread seems to validate all the work the devs did on Going Rogue. A higher percentage of players seem to be reading the mission text in Praetoria.
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It truly is an "evil twin" universe, if even the ones who oppose the lawful evil empire are themselves unscrupulous!
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Time to get myself mod smacked. http://www.holocaustresearchproject....whiterose.html , please tell Sophie that if you ever see her.
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Originally Posted by NobleFox
Oh and for all her talk about freedom and whatnot, Cleopatra sure had no problem trying to send ym character to her death with no foreknowledge of it. The absolute BEST case scenario, if that faction of the Resistance "toppled Cole" would be the exact same lies and "I know what's best for you" as the Cole administration, except without the power of Cole to actually hold back Hamidon.
I'll take fascism and life over fascism and death with the additional danger of being under the rule of proven psychopathic lunatics any day, thanks. At least some kid on the way to school is likely not to be fed to zombies just to make a point. |
Coming soon to a team near you !
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Are you attempting to compare non-violent protesters giving out pamphlets to members of an organization who organize hospital bombings and the gassing of Police officers..?|
Originally Posted by The_Entertainer
Time to get myself mod smacked. http://www.holocaustresearchproject....whiterose.html , please tell Sophie that if you ever see her.
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The non-Violent protesters in Praetoria stand in clear view of everyone in Nova Praetoria, waving their signs and calling out their slogans. Not hiding from the SS while painting "Die Cole Die" on the walls of public buildings in the night.
There is some measure of both freedom of speech and freedom of congress shown in Nova Praetoria. There is at least some self-governance in Praetoria (as evidenced by elected politician Luke Larson and the Magisterium)
So there are Freedoms in Praetoria. Freedom to choose your representatives, freedom to meet peaceably and share your ideas and beliefs... There's no evidence that the elections are rigged or that the Peaceful Protestors are routinely murdered.
-Rachel-
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Freedom to support Tyrant, or be imprisoned, tortured and murdered if you don't.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
So there are Freedoms in Praetoria.
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| Freedom to choose your representatives |
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| freedom to meet peaceably and share your ideas and beliefs |
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| There's no evidence that the elections are rigged |
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| that the Peaceful Protestors are routinely murdered. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Yes. The woman who tried to have you killed, whether you were resistanc eor not, she's a bastion of hope for the society, isn't she?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Or people like Cleo, who help you stop hospital bombings
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If she wanted to do things the right way, she would have talked to you, explained the situation and let you decide 'Hey these resistance arn't so bad, maybe they do want to help?'
But no! She thought you were a risk and sent you to die and afterwards, when you come with Washington she tries to win you over with 'we stopped a bombing!', which Washington would have wanted to happen anyways, the man who didn't try to deceive you, who didn't lie who admits the flaws of the government, but the requirement to quell the resistance first, for thier mass murders.
Cleo did it wrong and she should have to pay. Even Scott said, if you called in, you should kill her, because she was being an idiot, she was harming the integrity of the resistance AND yourself.
Cleo is not a hero, she is a villain, she manipulated you and then, rather than giving you a chance to see her side, tries to send you to your death. Her death is justified, Washington's is not.
My Characters
Story Arcs Looking for Feedback:
Serving Vengeance:#419748 (For Villains/Vigilantes) (Drama/Mystery) (Viable Within Canon)
Dark Moon Rising: #13170 (For Heroes/Vigilantes) (Horror/Mystery) (Non-Canon)
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When you're fighting an evil dictatorship, you don't just tell one of the stormtroopers of the dictatorship that you're actually working against the dictatorship |
Originally Posted by Quinz
If she wanted to do things the right way, she would have talked to you, explained the situation and let you decide 'Hey these resistance arn't so bad, maybe they do want to help?'
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Don't forget that to her, you're just another loyalist to be manipulated to help the Resistance, and then gotten rid of - and as far as you know, she's also just another loyalist contact who is genuinely working for the dictatorship - if you're working for the Resistance, then you're no more likely to tell her that than you are to tell Marauder, or any other loyalist.
Neither you - or her - are going to say "by the way, I'm secretly working for the Resistance, and I kinda hope you are too, or this is going to get a bit awkward"
It's a great arc for showing how difficult it is in Praetoria - it's hard to find out who knows what, and who's helping who, and what the real motivations of people are.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Sigh , wish I had more time to give you a better defined/detailed explanation but work is a harsh mistress who brooks no rivals. My point is there is no difference in the eyes of a dictatorship between hospital bombings and handing out subversive documents. In both cases they are a threat to the state.
There is no proof the elections are not rigged , and the protesters are not paid employees of the state. There are NO white hats in Praetoria. Just a few good men and women who are being overwhelmed by circumstance , and a lot of self serving people looking out for them selves.
We as outsiders have an advantage that we can see the over plot , hidden details ect. that the people in the game can't. Thus we know of the consequences that can escape their notice. The end justifies the means is an old argument , and one that is well told by the Dev's.
As to the link , the comment about living in a state like that is one that strikes very close to home and is a decision I truly hope you never have to live with making.
Coming soon to a team near you !
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There's a pile of Protesters at the Magisterium who aren't dead... And they'll be there tomorrow, and the day after, and the day after. Hmm. Maybe you're wrong?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Freedom to support Tyrant, or be imprisoned, tortured and murdered if you don't.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Who have no power to stop Tyrant doing what he wants
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
And get fired on by the PPD thugs
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
When you're srugging the people, altering hsitory, controlling the media and education system and reading their thoughts, there's not really any need to force a result in any "election"
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Originally Posted by Luke Larson
I've had my office looking into some of these rumors and reports of alliances between the Resistance and the Destroyers. It seems to me that the biggest gain PR-wise would be in eliminating the relationship with psychopaths. At least the Syndicate operates under some semblance of morality.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
They're routinely fired on by Tyrants stormtroopers, and people "disappear" for way less too
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As for the Disappearing; In-game evidence or just stop it. We know the backstory about seditionists and superbeings who weren't loyal "Visiting other cities". I know about the badges under Praetoria and... frankly i don't care. That'd be roughly equivalent to having a badge under the electric chair in a prison and you screaming about how awful it is.
-Rachel-
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Yes? And if she told you, but you were still going to be a loyalist she would have done just as Washington says. She would have lied and looked to White to get he rout of a bad situation. She is an idiot, she is a sociopath that says she is a part of the Wardens as a shield for if you are part of the resistance. Any loyalist would not take her, she would be just as bad as the rest of them, worse, even for specifically trying to get YOU killed. And even Scott says that what she did was out of line and if you were a part of the Resistance, then you could either keep her as an inside woman to try and do the same she tried to do to you, disobeying Scott, or do what Scott tells you as duty mixed in vengeance of what she did.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
When you're fighting an evil dictatorship, you don't just tell one of the stormtroopers of the dictatorship that you're actually working against the dictatorship
Don't forget that to her, you're just another loyalist to be manipulated to help the Resistance, and then gotten rid of - and as far as you know, she's also just another loyalist contact who is genuinely working for the dictatorship - if you're working for the Resistance, then you're no more likely to tell her that than you are to tell Marauder, or any other loyalist. Neither you - or her - are going to say "by the way, I'm secretly working for the Resistance, and I kinda hope you are too, or this is going to get a bit awkward" It's a great arc for showing how difficult it is in Praetoria - it's hard to find out who knows what, and who's helping who, and what the real motivations of people are. |
Cleo was wrong, flat out, in how she handled the situation and if you can defend her just because she has the 'Resistance' brand to her, then you are blind to the situation and how people really think, rather than metagaming the knowledge and going 'she's with the 'good guys' so what if she tried to have my character murdered after she 'finished' with me, it was CLEARLY the RIGHt thing to DO to MURDER someone that HELPPED the whole time. Who could potentially be a very strong ALLY.
My Characters
Story Arcs Looking for Feedback:
Serving Vengeance:#419748 (For Villains/Vigilantes) (Drama/Mystery) (Viable Within Canon)
Dark Moon Rising: #13170 (For Heroes/Vigilantes) (Horror/Mystery) (Non-Canon)
ok this thread's gone south suddenly so if a few of you (I'm excluding the Autistic Troll from this) want to take it outside that'd be good.
Just to point out that this thread isn't about correcting grammar (btw it's repudiate) it's about discussing the arcs in Praetoria.
One thing that struck me is that the new content is very much playing to the 16+ certification of the game since the CoH/CoV merge. This content is clearly not for kids and as someone in my middle years I find the questions tough to debate even if the consequences are negligible. I understand that there are many games that go far further than this in terms of violence and graphic realism, but I'm not aware of any that actually mess with your moral compass the way that GR does. (I'm very open to correction here, I'm not a huge game buyer, but I think my point stands.)
What this game does is (I hope) make the player think. For me - and I'm betting for most of the thread contributors her - it worked. We are also able to draw geopolitical parallels - for me it's mostly Pol Pot and Nicolae Ceauşescu that make the better comparisons.
Let us also remember that very few successful revolutionaries are remembered as liberators.
Thelonious Monk
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And what are they protesting about? |
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
There's a pile of Protesters at the Magisterium who aren't dead... And they'll be there tomorrow, and the day after, and the day after. Hmm. Maybe you're wrong?
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| The Executive office can Veto any Legislation that makes it through both Congress and the House of Representatives. Your argument is invalid. |
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| Pics or it didn't happen! Show me the Protestors in Nova being shot by the PPD. Screenshots work fine. |
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That's really... Yeah. Wow. Luke Larson is a Resistance Sympathizer, he's also an elected official. who says, and I quote... He's trying to manipulate the public into sympathizing with the Resistance by distancing himself from the Destroyers and Crusaders. This indicates that the election -isn't- brain-controlled through drugs and mind-control. Especially since he's not the ONLY Member of the Magisterium who is a Resistance Sympathizer, all of whom were elected even though they do so. |
Much better to pass yourself off as an obedient little loyalist, and then once you got elected, start working in secret to mess up the system
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| I've never once seen the PPD open fire on anyone who wasn't Syndicate, Resistance, or a Destroyer. Well that's not true, sometimes they attack the malfunctioning clockwork or members of Powers Division who screw up their arrests or attack other officers... |
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| As for the Disappearing; In-game evidence or just stop it. We know the backstory about seditionists and superbeings who weren't loyal "Visiting other cities". I know about the badges under Praetoria and... frankly i don't care. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Calvin Scott isn't the best person to decide what is and isn't out of line |
Originally Posted by Quinz
Yes? And if she told you, but you were still going to be a loyalist she would have done just as Washington says. She would have lied and looked to White to get he rout of a bad situation. She is an idiot, she is a sociopath that says she is a part of the Wardens as a shield for if you are part of the resistance. Any loyalist would not take her, she would be just as bad as the rest of them, worse, even for specifically trying to get YOU killed. And even Scott says that what she did was out of line and if you were a part of the Resistance, then you could either keep her as an inside woman to try and do the same she tried to do to you, disobeying Scott, or do what Scott tells you as duty mixed in vengeance of what she did.
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| Cleo was wrong, flat out, in how she handled the situation and if you can defend her just because she has the 'Resistance' brand to her, then you are blind to the situation and how people really think, rather than metagaming the knowledge and going 'she's with the 'good guys' so what if she tried to have my character murdered after she 'finished' with me, it was CLEARLY the RIGHt thing to DO to MURDER someone that HELPPED the whole time. Who could potentially be a very strong ALLY. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Aaaaaaaaaaaaand back onto ignore you go. You simply can't argue with people so dogmatically blinded they can't see the atrocities their beliefs have wrought.
So sad.
And to preempt anyone going "Pot, you're black" I'll point out that i -know- the Government is corrupt and Tyrant is evil, but I also know that the Government can be saved after Cole is dealt with. Some people are too busy trying to blow up -everyone- and -everything- to pull their fingers out of their ears and realize what they're doing.
-Rachel-
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Last city, perhaps, but as for the ships and planes having anywhere to go, besides doing exploration, you're missing a fundamental issue with Praetoria -- where does the food come from? There has to be a significant acreage devoted to food production even with carniculture and hydroponics, and we don't see that in Praetoria; it has to be somewhere else.
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Originally Posted by Hammerstar
As UberRod pointed out in a previous post, I think it's important to remember Praetoria is a city that has been under seige for many years, and may be the last remaining Human city on the Earth (which begs the question of if the ships in the docks or the planes at the airport have any place to go).
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"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.