I hate every Praetorian
By
Adumbrate,
Posted on: 2010-08-25 02:12 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Here I was about to bring Schindler up as well. He saved a lot of people by using the laws of the evil tyrant government. In Praetoria He would be a loyalist Responsibility arc character. He don't have the power or means to stop the evil so he's going to be bowing to the evil as he does everything he can to protect the people from that evil.|
Originally Posted by NobleFox
Hey, by Golden Girl's logic, Schindler was just as much of a ******* as Hitler himself!
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Saddly for all the fun of the new arcs. I do enjoying seeing how dark I can go I have yet to get a single character to level 20 lol.
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Originally Posted by TroyHickman
I've just started playing GR, and I find myself mainly wanting to go off and start my own society that ignores all these dilrods, but that's not an option so far.
So instead I'm going to shoot people and destroy stuff. Almost as good! |
I feel exactly the same way.
I think I've said this before, but I get the distinct hunch that we may well get some arcs in future inspired (or at the very least giving a hefty nod) by Mark Grunewald's "Squadron Supreme" or similar, where the PCs from Primal Earth get to move in to Praetoria to fix it and prevent it being a threat.
Having run a few more arcs (and I've tried different ones - I've noticed that even those minded to be good seem very flawed.
One big difference between this and much of the "main game" content, ie Heroes and Villains, is that I actually want to know the stories, rather than simply play through the arc. I'm inspired to read them whenever possible to get the flavour and the way they interlink is inspired.
However much I dislike the NPCs, it's because the content is so good and the way they are written is done so well. Bravo Devs
Thelonious Monk
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I think that's as much "design" as it is story. The Loyalist faction has to have some redeeming features - even if it's "we're less crazy than the lunatics" - and ok so the zombies are allegorical for terrorists and suicide bombers who tend to be people who lose sight of their overall goal and instead become hell bent on forcing others to their will by violence rather than reason. |
Originally Posted by NobleFox
I do have one caveat to that applause. By level 15, I wanted out. Nothing I did was going to matter and that was obvious, so I wanted to just opt out and do something else. I stopped doing the main missions and just street hunted for the hours required to leave. The storyline actually made me stop caring about it. It tried a little TOO hard to be "gray", when to me it was just evil and lesser evil. there's no difficult moral decision here: when tasked to choose between fascists who want to maintain a status quo and complete lunatics who want revenge and are willing to create zombies and send those zombies to kill people and then "rescue" them from the zombies?
Yeah, you go with "less evil". What's difficult about this choice for sane persons? Not even "evil" characters would side with those lunatics unless they're of the often-seen alignment of Chaotic Stupid. To them I advise a glance at the Evil Overlord list. The character I played had this to say before I.. frankly lost interest. "There DOES need to be a resistance... but not them. Not like that." |
To mitigate the "average" Loyalist's perspective, it's quite easy to get a sense that in Praetoria there's chaos just under the surface - just a light scratch and humanities last stronghold collapses: Cole might be a ******* but he's the only ******* we've got and so far we're surviving the pressures from within and without. Things may be tough, but they'd be a lot tougher without him. Thus, hard decisions need to be taken for the common good.
Thelonious Monk
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That's how my Loyalist see it. They would rather have what's wrong then face Hamidon or worst someone else repeating Hami's experiment and becoming a second one. In order to save humanity it's better that the Seers make sure no one is repeating that nightmare.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
I think that's as much "design" as it is story. The Loyalist faction has to have some redeeming features - even if it's "we're less crazy than the lunatics" - and ok so the zombies are allegorical for terrorists and suicide bombers who tend to be people who lose sight of their overall goal and instead become hell bent on forcing others to their will by violence rather than reason.
To mitigate the "average" Loyalist's perspective, it's quite easy to get a sense that in Praetoria there's chaos just under the surface - just a light scratch and humanities last stronghold collapses: Cole might be a ******* but he's the only ******* we've got and so far we're surviving the pressures from within and without. Things may be tough, but they'd be a lot tougher without him. Thus, hard decisions need to be taken for the common good. |
Or so they say to themselves.
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The 'grey' is the concept that some things normally thought of as evil have to be accepted in the circumstances everyone is in within Praetoria. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It isn't gray, because they've made the government way too evil to allow for any grayness - like Tyrant and his fascist dictatorship is a checklist of government evil - mass murder, "disappearances", torture, thought police, slavery, drugged citizens, "behavioral adjustment" for anyone who opposes the governemnt, repression of the media and education, police brutality and general oppression - there's just nothing gray there, it's all evil, from the lowest PPD thug to the insane god-emperor in his tower.
And although it's one of the lesser crimes when compared to the other crimes against humanity being carried out by Tyrant and his thugs on a daily basis, the drugging of the water is actually one of the biggest problems in trying to make Praetoria seem gray - it takes away the idea that large sections of the population might actually like Tyrant and his dictatorship of their own accord, and not because they were being pacified by a drugged water supply. |
Would you say a person who kills another person who is shell-shocked and keeps sobbing loudly in order to keep a group of refugees from being discovered by an army bent on massacring all of them is evil? What about someone who deliberately lies to another in such a way that that person will likely die, in order to keep them from doing something they don't know will kill thousands? Or another person who physically assaults and seriously injures another person who did nothing to the attacker in order to stop their frantic and physical protest to everyone within that staying inside the tunnel and safe is better than risking the open air and having to fight? What about breaking a person's arms in order to stop their resistance of you pulling them to safety? All of these are things that people would consider evil acts in 'peacetime' settings that are much more grey, and indeed are considered manditory in some military organizations, when in a wartime setting. Would an officer who did the above be put on trial as a war criminal for the above after the crisis had passed? Maybe, but does it mean that what they did was wrong? Not necessarily, though it would seem so to a person who was not in that situation.
Everything you describe above is taken from the viewpoint of those in the Prime Earth, who managed to beat back the Hamidon and never faced the 'last stand' scenerio. Can you say the same viewpoint would guide your every action if you knew any mis-step by yourself or anyone in your city would, without question, be the end of the Human race? Remember, the Hamidon is not a stupid thing...it can think. To quote a favorite movie, "It can't be bargained with, it can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear, and it absolutely will not stop...-ever-...until you are dead!". How much do you gamble with Humanity's fate when you know any time you lose is the end of it all?
So yes, I do see it as grey. The grey of a fog, where what is normally clear and easy to define gets blurred until you are not sure what you can firmly believe is real and what is to be ignored.
Those who think Truth is relative haven't had a Tank land on their car.
You're saying all the right things and offering a convincing argument, Hammerstar.
Unfortunately you're trying to convince Golden Girl. You'd have better luck standing hip deep in the Nile and convincing it to flow south through logical discourse.
During the Beta there was a MASSIVE thread on Loyalists with Principles, the issue was one of the first arcs available to a Loyalist. You have no choice but to kill SOMEONE in the morality mission and it's a difficult choice for some people to make. Do you kill the nice lady who helped you stop a Resistance Bomb Plot while manipulating you into getting several cops killed and tried to send you into a murderous ambush? Or the Cop who, while gruff, is still doing his best to do the right thing in this world. He helped you to track down a serial killer.
The Devs chose to write the Morality Text as Revenge and Violence for the Loyalist option, and sweet caring bunnies for the Resistance option, barely mentioning ou'd have to kill the cop. I found this disturbing and Preposterous, since you know she's a treasonous spy who just got several cops killed, tried to kill you, ordered you to plant bugs in a police station and plans to use her boyfriend's governmental pull to get away with it... While Killing the Cop means shooting a man whom, to your knowledge, has done -no- wrong whatsoever. He's a good person if a little stern.
For the first half of the thread GG gave her patented one-line + 
method of posting about how all Loyalists are evil heartless bastards and the only option is to kill the cop. When confronted about it she explained that she'd never -played- the Loyalist arcs, but heard they were evil.
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Long debates went through about governmental structures, wartime policies, murder, morality, etc. Venture came in the thread in order to shout "You're Dumb, But I don't have time to explain why because I'm awesome like that" a few times, -then- started kind of explaining his views and Ethics straight from the mouths of Professors and Philosophers, more or less...
In the end it was a massive thread which showed me i wouldn't -mind- living in a Police State within a certain threshold of control. This, in turn, cause GG to lash out and tell me I'm a heartless evil monster for not seeing that the Loyalists are pure evil and the Resistance is made up only of happy kittens who love everyone. having -played- the various arcs to different degrees and read synopses of their storylines I disagreed.
You cannot win, with GG. You simply can't. She's going to continue telling you her black and white Good and Evil spiel until she turns blue in the face or you turn red. And she'll probably do it with a metric ton of winking smiley faces.
The Wardens willingly create panic and rioting, the Crusaders bomb hospitals and kick puppies, The Responsible allow evil to go unpunished in order to prevent utter annihilation, The Powers use the system shamelessly to aggrandize themselves.
Cole may be the single biggest threat to PRIMAL Earth. But the Resistance is the greatest threat to Praetorian Earth. The Loyalist NPCs may be pretty villainous, but the PCs can run the gamut.
And finally, She's going to tell you that Schindler was a Warden, not a Responsible Loyalist. And in a way, he was. Except for the use of cheap Jewish Labor to create weapons of war which would keep their people (and most other people) oppressed if Germany had won the war. So i agree. Responsible Loyalist. Trying to do what he can to make the world a better place with his hands tied.
-Rachel-
I'm enjoying Praetoria very much, because it's interesting to have missions and arcs that really make me think.
I do disagree with some things that have been said about the Wardens. I don't think their opposition to the Crusaders' extremism is just 'concern over PR'. I think it's just a recognition that for a revolution to truly succeed, you have to win the hearts and minds of the populace. And you simply can't do that by presenting the argument as "Our mass murderers are better than their mass murderers."
And did anyone besides me fall in love with Tunnel Rat? Obviously scared out of her wits by what she's doing, but still doing what she feels is the right thing. When we were given the mission to rescue her, I loaded up on red inspirations, made sure all my enhancements were maxed out, and went on a rampage of destruction. 
"Home is where, when you have to go there, they have to let you in."
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She is awesomesauce! =-3|
Originally Posted by Remidi
I'm enjoying Praetoria very much, because it's interesting to have missions and arcs that really make me think.
I do disagree with some things that have been said about the Wardens. I don't think their opposition to the Crusaders' extremism is just 'concern over PR'. I think it's just a recognition that for a revolution to truly succeed, you have to win the hearts and minds of the populace. And you simply can't do that by presenting the argument as "Our mass murderers are better than their mass murderers." And did anyone besides me fall in love with Tunnel Rat? Obviously scared out of her wits by what she's doing, but still doing what she feels is the right thing. When we were given the mission to rescue her, I loaded up on red inspirations, made sure all my enhancements were maxed out, and went on a rampage of destruction. |
And I'm -sure- there's more to the Crusaders than PR... Like Cleopatra's use of them to lull you into a sense of security that -she- isn't an evil psychopath who will soon send you off to meet your death after framing you for the deaths of several cops! <3
The fact of the matter is that the Resistance was formed by a Crusader (Calvin Scott) and is made up mostly of Crusaders (All the heaping amounts of resistance in the game) with a few Wardens trying to fix things. So the Vast Majority of what some people would have you believe is the "Heroic" side is actually made up of puppy-killing evil, violence, and abuses of human rights.
That last statement, by the by, also applies to the Loyalists, of course. But the Wardens and the Responsible Loyalists are, inasmuch as anyone can be, the heroic paths through Praetoria.
-Rachel-
Geez, it's just a game people.
I've been having fun making evil versions of my heroes and good versions of my villains and letting that dictate their choices. As good as my heroes are, that's how despicable they are in Praetoria.
You're playing characters here, and making decisions in that mindset. If I were to let my own personal feelings about Praetoria creep in, this game probably wouldn't be all that much fun.
Learn modesty, if you desire knowledge. A highland would never be irrigated by river." (Kanz ol-Haghayegh)
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See... That's the thing. I like playing my characters and having them make decisions. Which is -why- I can play a Warden and a Responsible and a Powers character (Not a Crusader, though... Just TOO evil). The catch is that all three characters are heroic. Two are altruistically heroic, and the third is a hero for the wrong reasons (fame and fortune) but at least she's still helping people or stopping criminals, more often than not (haven't got to the bank robbery thing yet...)|
Originally Posted by The_Dude73
Geez, it's just a game people.
I've been having fun making evil versions of my heroes and good versions of my villains and letting that dictate their choices. As good as my heroes are, that's how despicable they are in Praetoria. You're playing characters here, and making decisions in that mindset. If I were to let my own personal feelings about Praetoria creep in, this game probably wouldn't be all that much fun. |
I've been told, however, by some people that my characters are not and can not be heroic in any way shape or form because they work with the government... Which is simply not true. And I'm trying to express to Hammerstar that trying to convince those people that there are heroes on any side which isn't -their- side is like trying to convince the sky to be green, or water to do a loop-de-loop out of a river without the use of machinery.
-Rachel-
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Everyone uses the Crusaders for cannon fodder, especially the Power Loyalist Contacts. They just call in resistance strikes to engineer photo ops. |
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
She is awesomesauce! =-3
And I'm -sure- there's more to the Crusaders than PR... Like Cleopatra's use of them to lull you into a sense of security that -she- isn't an evil psychopath who will soon send you off to meet your death after framing you for the deaths of several cops! <3 |
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Thanks for the input, but I know there are going to be people who won't see the factions in Praetoria except in terms of the most basic black/white that they are familiar and comfortable with, especially if they are coming in from the COH or COV settings and like either of those exclusively (i.e. believe either of those is the way the world -should- be). In truth, the beauty of Praetoria is that there are places in it for just those people. |
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
See... That's the thing. I like playing my characters and having them make decisions. Which is -why- I can play a Warden and a Responsible and a Powers character (Not a Crusader, though... Just TOO evil). The catch is that all three characters are heroic. Two are altruistically heroic, and the third is a hero for the wrong reasons (fame and fortune) but at least she's still helping people or stopping criminals, more often than not (haven't got to the bank robbery thing yet...)
I've been told, however, by some people that my characters are not and can not be heroic in any way shape or form because they work with the government... Which is simply not true. And I'm trying to express to Hammerstar that trying to convince those people that there are heroes on any side which isn't -their- side is like trying to convince the sky to be green, or water to do a loop-de-loop out of a river without the use of machinery. -Rachel- |
Those who are die-hard anti-government, no-compromise players have a home as Crusaders, while those who are True Believers in the government and what it can do for them will probably be quite content as Power Loyalists. Both of these are the black-and-white options for those who don't want to or can't deal with compromised positions in their game play, with the Resistance Wardens and Responsibility Loyalists a place where those who like more complex moral characters and gameplay can find their own home.
And that's one of the amazing things about Praetoria. The work done to explain how such an environment could exist is truely first-rate, and the challenge it poses to players who want to explore that aspect of the game is quite refreshing when you consider most MMORPGs barely get beyond the 'go find monster, slay monster, loot monster, repeat' style of gameplay.
Incidentally, the idea of having hard-line Crusaders and protective Wardens clashing over how to wage a war is a great homage to one of the great gaming universes from the days before MMOs, and I'm thrilled they did so much of that kind of thing in Praetoria. Kudos to the design team for such geekdom moments
Those who think Truth is relative haven't had a Tank land on their car.
best bit here? the community actively discussing the pro's, con's, up's and down's of the story.
job done i think for the writers
that said i tried doing a crusader arc first: achmed, ali and osama would be happy...
then i tried loyalist power, egopower trips don't do it for me
next up was loyalist responsibility, Edmond Burke's quote comes to mind "All that's needed for evil to prevail is that good men do nothing" all they do is reinforce the status quo
finally i tried Resistance Warden arc: i liked this one a lot, sure there are some nasty bits to it, but overall it's the one that goes best with my view of things in the game
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I think some of that's the work of Dr. Aeon - before he became a dev, he wrote some great MA arcs that were very linked up - "The Legacy of Joe, the Longbow Eagle" is the first one, if you want to try them.
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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
the way they interlink is inspired.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Interestingly enough, I have a hard time seeing how any sane person could side with the Responsibility Loyalists. |
Originally Posted by NobleFox
I do have one caveat to that applause. By level 15, I wanted out. Nothing I did was going to matter and that was obvious, so I wanted to just opt out and do something else. I stopped doing the main missions and just street hunted for the hours required to leave. The storyline actually made me stop caring about it. It tried a little TOO hard to be "gray", when to me it was just evil and lesser evil. there's no difficult moral decision here: when tasked to choose between fascists who want to maintain a status quo and complete lunatics who want revenge and are willing to create zombies and send those zombies to kill people and then "rescue" them from the zombies?
Yeah, you go with "less evil". What's difficult about this choice for sane persons? Not even "evil" characters would side with those lunatics unless they're of the often-seen alignment of Chaotic Stupid. To them I advise a glance at the Evil Overlord list. The character I played had this to say before I.. frankly lost interest. "There DOES need to be a resistance... but not them. Not like that." |
The Crusader missions must have shocked you so much that you didn't actually pay attention to what's going on. The Crusader didn't create the ghouls, the Praetorians did and unleashed them in the underground to terrorize the Resistance. Had you bothered to finish playing the missions you would have learned what finally happened between the Crusaders and the Ghouls.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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That's correct - anyone working for Tyrant's evil system is evil as well - no one with normal morality can support someone like Tyrant and be a good person.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
I've been told, however, by some people that my characters are not and can not be heroic in any way shape or form because they work with the government
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Question: Is your Responsibility path "hero" TRULY loyal to Cole and his regime? As opposed to being someone like Cleopatra who tries to subvert the excesses of the system.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
See... That's the thing. I like playing my characters and having them make decisions. Which is -why- I can play a Warden and a Responsible and a Powers character (Not a Crusader, though... Just TOO evil). The catch is that all three characters are heroic. Two are altruistically heroic, and the third is a hero for the wrong reasons (fame and fortune) but at least she's still helping people or stopping criminals, more often than not (haven't got to the bank robbery thing yet...)
I've been told, however, by some people that my characters are not and can not be heroic in any way shape or form because they work with the government... Which is simply not true. And I'm trying to express to Hammerstar that trying to convince those people that there are heroes on any side which isn't -their- side is like trying to convince the sky to be green, or water to do a loop-de-loop out of a river without the use of machinery. -Rachel- |
Because for me, that's the rub. You simply cannot be a good person and support that government. For really all the reasons you say that the Crusaders are evil, I say that the loyal responsibility path character is. There are some things that you just cannot support and be a good person.
You cannot support the Seer program and be a good person. There is not one thing about Praetoria that is more evil. How can a person deal with Tilman and not be utterly convinced of that is beyond me.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Well, that fits with who the good side are |
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
The Devs chose to write the Morality Text as Revenge and Violence for the Loyalist option, and sweet caring bunnies for the Resistance option, barely mentioning ou'd have to kill the cop.
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| I found this disturbing and Preposterous |
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| While Killing the Cop means shooting a man whom, to your knowledge, has done -no- wrong whatsoever. He's a good person if a little stern. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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25 years is a very long time for a state of emergency to last |
Originally Posted by Hammerstar
The 'grey' is the concept that some things normally thought of as evil have to be accepted in the circumstances everyone is in within Praetoria.
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| Everything you describe above is taken from the viewpoint of those in the Prime Earth |
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| who managed to beat back the Hamidon and never faced the 'last stand' scenerio. |
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| Can you say the same viewpoint would guide your every action if you knew any mis-step by yourself or anyone in your city would, without question, be the end of the Human race? Remember, the Hamidon is not a stupid thing...it can think. To quote a favorite movie, "It can't be bargained with, it can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear, and it absolutely will not stop...-ever-...until you are dead!". How much do you gamble with Humanity's fate when you know any time you lose is the end of it all? |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Calvin Scott did not form the Resistance. See when you all say stuff like this, I have a hard time believing you've actually played these arcs. |
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
She is awesomesauce! =-3
The fact of the matter is that the Resistance was formed by a Crusader (Calvin Scott) and is made up mostly of Crusaders (All the heaping amounts of resistance in the game) with a few Wardens trying to fix things. So the Vast Majority of what some people would have you believe is the "Heroic" side is actually made up of puppy-killing evil, violence, and abuses of human rights. -Rachel- |
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Originally Posted by Calvin Scott's bio
Calvin Scott dared to speak out against Praetor Tilman's theft of his wife's body, and for that he was imprisoned in the Mother of Mercy Psychiatric Hospital. When the Resistance attacked the facility, Calvin escaped in the confusion. With nowhere else to go, he joined the Resistance and has been with it ever since.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Well, I think loyalists only watch TPN for all their information needs |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Calvin Scott did not form the Resistance. See when you all say stuff like this, I have a hard time believing you've actually played these arcs.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Some of Stalin's NKVD men who were carrying out his purge orders said quite plainly they did what they did because if they'd refused, they would have been "disappeared" themselves. There was no Resistance for them to run to.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's correct - anyone working for Tyrant's evil system is evil as well - no one with normal morality can support someone like Tyrant and be a good person.
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This is not to say a Resistance movement, had it existed, wouldn't have had a moral justification for taking someone like that out, but sometimes these guys are trying to get by in a bad situation themselves.
Tyrant reminds me of Stalin in many ways. I find his government reprehensible. However, my powerhungy evil twin of my main hero works with the system, since it's just a game.
Learn modesty, if you desire knowledge. A highland would never be irrigated by river." (Kanz ol-Haghayegh)
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No. My Responsible Loyalist is -not- Loyal to Cole and his Regime.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Question: Is your Responsibility path "hero" TRULY loyal to Cole and his regime? As opposed to being someone like Cleopatra who tries to subvert the excesses of the system.
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She is Loyal to Praetoria. And to the People of Praetoria. And that is why she fights against the Wardens when they start riots, or the Crusaders when they attempt to bomb a hospital, or the Syndicate for being cut-throat criminals.
And when she leaves Praetoria it will be to bring down Cole, The Resistance, and the Syndicate when she returns with the full might of Primal Earth at her back.
Everyone loves to shout and scream that killing in self-defense isn't murder, because of the motive. Killing in war time isn't murder. But killing people who are a threat to the Population of Praetoria because they intend to bomb hospitals, or start riots -is- an evil act?
A Responsible Loyalist sees corruption in their government and works through it, not supporting the Leader of the nation, but the nation itself. By the end of the arcs a truly Responsible Loyalist intends to take down Cole and his Oligarchs. They choose the lesser of two evils and do the best they can with what they've got. Either keep the system running while trying to to enact change, or let terrorists and murderers randomly kill hundreds of people at a time.
Really doesn't seem to be much of a choice.
-Rachel-
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You're right, and I apologize. He didn't -FORM- it, her just CONTROLS it.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Calvin Scott did not form the Resistance. See when you all say stuff like this, I have a hard time believing you've actually played these arcs.
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Obviously the whole thing is still a bunch of kitten-happy-yay-time people interested in taking down just the government and NOT bombing hospitals...
Oh... Wait. No. They're still following a Madman and bombing things with the Wardens as the minority who are grudgingly accepted by the leader of the group...
-Rachel-
That's a serious achivement from the Devs and should be applauded
Yeah, you go with "less evil". What's difficult about this choice for sane persons? Not even "evil" characters would side with those lunatics unless they're of the often-seen alignment of Chaotic Stupid. To them I advise a glance at the Evil Overlord list.
The character I played had this to say before I.. frankly lost interest. "There DOES need to be a resistance... but not them. Not like that."