I hate every Praetorian

Yeah - although there are a lot of Nazi aspects to the loyalists, the propaganda posters and personality cult stuff seems more Communist in their art style - which is a good move, so that they don't make the dictatorship seem too much like any single RL one, and make it a blend of RL ones instead, with some sc-fi evil like thought police thown in too.

If you were loyal to the people of Praetoria, you wouldn't be working for the system that is oppressing them

That's a rather extremist point of view.

I know it's futile, but what the hell...

What about the people who like living in Praetoria? Who are happy, Enriche or not. Who have families to look after, a nice office job, who go with their friends to Loyal Tea and Coffee at the weekend or talk about the latest episode of Blue and Gold.

Do they deserve their lives to be torn apart by the Resistance bombing hospitals, gassing police stations, destroying pretty much the one clean source of water and turning an entire population over to Vanguard's 'charity'?

Do they deserve the risk of kidnap for who their friends are, for what information they may know, or simply to be made an example of as a 'sheep'?

Does what we can see as pretty much the last, greatest bastion of humanity deserve to be torn apart by these drug-addled, anarchistic, sadistic barbarians, even if there are a few among them who try to do good, who try to subvert and to save the people of Praetoria? Do good men and women in Praetoria who try to work within the system deserve to be killed for just doing their sworn duty?

Does the Cole Administration have it's issues? Yes, and my characters who are loyal to Praetoria want to see these issues resolved. Is the Resistance the answer?

On the most part?

No. They're just another problem.

Life under the Resistance isn't going to be glorious freedom and safety. It's going to be hard, painful, dangerous and a far cry what most citizens of Praetoria would want for their family.

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SUPPORT - IT'S NOT JUST A GROUPING OF ATs
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More Than a Game
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Actually, when I started my Responsibility Loyalist, I had every intention of taking him evil. In fact he was to be my main character's evil counterpart. However, after running him all the way through the Responsibility track, I found that sending him to the Isles would require him to have a complete personality overhaul. Meanwhile, in Paragon:

• He will continue to save people from the Freakshow, just like he protected them from the Resistance.
• He will continue to save people from the Tsoo and the Family like he protected them from the Syndicate.
• He will continue to save people from the Council's machines, just like he protected them from the Clockwork the Resistance had reprogrammed.

Golden Girl asked earlier if our Responsibility Loyalists would shut down the evil parts of the Utopian government. I think at this point, M I A probably would. However, it's become a question of priorities. Before we can take down the government that kills SOME of the people, it's far more important to take down the terrorists who are trying to kill EVERYONE. They've tried to nuke two-thirds of the city. And their actions toward the survivors aren't that family friendly, either.

EvilGeko, I remember what turned you against the Loyalists in Beta - it was the Seer program drafting teenagers - excuse me, children - and what happens to them while in the program. So, now I have something to ask you. Did you see anywhere that the Resistance was going to warn people about the multiple nuclear strikes, "so they can get their children out of harms way"? Did you see any similar warning about the Hospital bombing? What about the rampaging Clockwork, did anyone "think of the children" there? Or when the Ghouls were set to rampage across the streets?

Is Tilman evil? Without a doubt. But as long as they are alive in the Seer program they still have a chance. We have proof of that in the Crusader arc itself. However, the children that are fed to the Ghouls? The ones vaporized in the destruction of Nova and Neutropolis? Even in a world of comic book heroes, these people aren't coming back.

I think you mean "Soviet" and not "Communist".

Those are two different things.

Or people like Cleo, who help you stop hospital bombings

Not to the people being oppressed by them

Soviet, Communist, Nazi, Loyalist - it doesn't really matter what the political framework of the dictatorship is - they're all evil, and for the people being oppressed and murdered because they don't fit into whatever insane system the dictatorship they're trapped in happens to be trying to impose on them, it doens't really make any difference.

Terrorist, Seditionist, Anarchist, Murderer - it doesn't really matter what the political framework of the Resistance is - they're all evil, and for the people being wiped out and murdered because they don't fit into whatever insane system the Resistance they're attacked by happens to be trying to impose on them, it doens't really make any difference.

Huh... Works both ways...

-Rachel-

When the water supply is drugged, it's very hard to tell who's really happy

Well spotted

When you're trying to change the mind of an insane god-emperor who believes his nightmare fascist dictatorship is heaven on earth, and can survive a one-on-one duel with the Hamidon and a direct hit from a nuke, the resolving of the problem will involve violence

You think an economic system is "evil" because of how one government went about trying to impose it?

By this reckoning, Capitalism is also evil. Your rigid and dogmatic approach to these things is fundamentally dangerous. To be quite honest, more evil has come out of that than anything else. It's a shame you don't see it; it could be your undoing.

Of course, they warned the people about Cole. They do it all the time. They've been trying for years to get these people to wake up to the evil that's all around them. To their credit, many people have woken up. But others are completely loyal to their safety. So if they only thing they are loyal to is their safety and they're willing to give everything up for it (including the safety and lives of others) then the only thing left to take away is their safety.

I guess I don't understand. Cole and his monsters created the Clockwork and armed these robots, the Resistance is just turning the weapon the other way.

Cole's golden boy, Neuron created the Ghouls and set them against the Resistance. The Resistance is just turning them back on the society that created them.

As for the nuclear strike you all get so incensed about, it's Cole's nuke. Again turning his weapons against his perfect society.

This is a war. No I don't think the Crusaders are nice people, no I don't think they are paragons of virtue. They didn't get to live in a world that allows that. They got to be born into a world where an immortal with superpowers and his band of other super-powered thugs decided that they get to rule the world. And so, while I lament what they do, I certainly understand it and can even understand how one could turn to these extreme actions.

Scott got the bad luck to be born into a world where his wife was taken from him and when he complained about it, his hero threw him in jail. Yes, he's hostile and angry and probably wants to blow some stuff up. I would too, if I were him.

By contrast, Cole. What the hell is he so mad about? Sure he got a nuke fired at him, but he got to walk away from it. Why does he have the right to create a government with secret execution chambers, brutal, corrupt police, telepathic slaves, and human experimentation.

I can't side with that. I can't understand why anyone would. I CAN AND DO understand why you have no sympathy for a society that accepts this. I CAN AND DO see that such a society is better off destroyed than allowed to perpetuate that evil.

OK, let me ask you this then. What should the Resistance do? How should they fight? They are a demonstrably weaker force against an enemy with more troops (including supers) and more resources.

Should they simply roll over and let Tyrant control everything? Don't tell me "work within the system." That's not a reasonable option. Cole is a dictator and he's immortal. He's not going anywhere unless pushed. How do you do that without anyone innocent getting in the way?

I don't think she understands the difference between economic designations and political designations... That could be the problem.

-Rachel-

Such a failure to understand such differences has led to a lot of fear and suffering in the real world. And that's where the real evil lies.

Yes, they most certainly do. Their utopia is built on the blood and bones of children. All people have a responsibility to stand against that.

Yes, they most certainly do, because they support a government who kidnaps others because of who their friends are or what their friends and family say.

YES, they most certainly do, because their sworn duty is to support a brutal dictatorship.

We don't know that. Free societies tend to be safer and more prosperous. It's interesting, but Praetoria isn't much a utopia. It has anarchist in the streets blowing things up, a criminal underground moving to subvert the government and an armed militia in an insurrection. At the same time you have a tyrannical government that's a threat to anyone who happens to be considered a "threat."

I'm not seeing what's worth saving there.

Answering the wrong question, here. I asked if they warned the people that the Resistance was about to engage in wholesale slaughter. Did they tell the people that the Resistance was about to reprogram the Clockwork to slaughter them, so they can get the children out of the way. Did they tell the people that the Resistance was about to set off a Neutron bomb in Nova, so they can get the children out of the city?

Actually, 'turning the weapon the other way' would have them pointing at the government officials, not the drugged sheep.

And the second Nuke was the Neutropolis power plant, which powers the Sonic Shields. Should Cole have that dismantled, as well?

Here is where we must disagree, then. The Resistance have made it clear that their final goal, if nothing else, is the complete genocide of Utopia. No matter what, that I CANNOT abide.

NOT KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE would be a great friggin' start. Whatever your plan, whatever your tactics, when you turn YOUR weapons on the unarmed, and participate in whole sale slaughter, whatever your goals may have been becomes irrelevant.

By killing the people of Utopia you are doing nothing but proving Tyrant's point, that if he relinquishes any of his control, the only freedom he's giving back is the freedom for humanity to destroy itself.

I just want to focus on this, because this is the key point. Are you saying that leaving the tyrant in place, allowing freedom to die, and having humanity forever being subject to an immortal dictator is the preferable course?

Because, you did not offer a contrary strategy. You seem to recognize the futility of attacking the regime directly. I must agree. I've actually given some thought to how the resistance could do this and not harm any innocent people. I can't think of anything that would work. This was a frightening thought to me as well.

I'm saying that ANY course other than the extermination of humanity is preferable. And yes, it is futile for a lone Loyalist to attack the regime. I will not argue that. KILLING EVERYONE IS NOT THE NEXT LOGICAL STEP.

The Resistance doesn't want to kill everyone. Just Cole and his Praetors and all that follow them whether armed or not! *evil cackle*

...that would be everyone.

Fixed your grammar and spelling.

In addition, the refutation is flawed. Hyperbole and building a straw man. Almost every Loyalist Responsibility inclined person has expressed a desire to dethrone Cole, they want to do it the right way. "turning someone's own weapons against them" does not make it any less horrifying murder. It doesn't matter who made the weapon, it matters who uses it.

That's just plain fantasy. Washington, Kang (although he later sees the error of his ways), Whitworth, McKnight, Tilman and Anti-Matter are all devoted to the regime.

By your own admission, you haven't even played all the arcs, please take the time to so that you know what you're talking about. And please learn what a straw-man argument is before accusing someone of it.

EDIT: Re-reading this, I'm thinking you might be talking about players instead of in-game characters. If so I apologize. But then, I'll also ask, "What is the right way?" Because you all say that, but offer no specifics.

Understood.