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Actually, for the heavy defense sets, I'd see less of a reason to need KB Resist, as most attacks miss, and thusly you dont get knocked back.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
First, its 2 armor sets that do not have KB protection. Pretty much everyone else in the game lacks it (Khelds get it in Dwarf, I am unsure how VEATs fare here). Rather than think of it as only two sets that lack KB protection, I generally think that there are X number of sets where I can get KB protection without dipping into pools or IOs and that X is a minority of my choices.
Just because is not the reason sets lack KB. There does not need to be a game balance reason to implement a design. Sometimes the concept is more important (or else why even have blasters at all  ). Balance must certainly be considered, because if the concept and design implementation fall out of a good range, then it is likely you will have issues.However, I can see your point. It might be pretty stupid that Shields, Willpower, Regen, Electric, and Energy get KB protection (although I like the way Electric's KB protection was implemented and it seems to work concept-wise). It may even be a bit silly for Ice and Invuln, although I see a strong case with those two sets. SR, Ninjitsu, and Stone have a pretty solid reasoning for KB protection. |
On my high defense squishy builds, I didnt put KB resist IOs in them, get into melee almost always, and never really notice the lack of KB resist, as again, they have to hit.
So I could see the problem being, that both Fire Armor and Dark Armor are resist sets that lack it.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Ninjitsu doesn't actually have KB protection - its copy of practiced brawler has no KB protection but gets confusion and fear protection instead (pretty fair trade I think, possibly even doing better than SR since there is NO way to get fear/confuse protection with IO's). |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
First, its 2 armor sets that do not have KB protection. Pretty much everyone else in the game lacks it (Khelds get it in Dwarf, I am unsure how VEATs fare here). Rather than think of it as only two sets that lack KB protection, I generally think that there are X number of sets where I can get KB protection without dipping into pools or IOs and that X is a minority of my choices.
Just because is not the reason sets lack KB. There does not need to be a game balance reason to implement a design. Sometimes the concept is more important (or else why even have blasters at all ). Balance must certainly be considered, because if the concept and design implementation fall out of a good range, then it is likely you will have issues.However, I can see your point. It might be pretty stupid that Shields, Willpower, Regen, Electric, and Energy get KB protection (although I like the way Electric's KB protection was implemented and it seems to work concept-wise). It may even be a bit silly for Ice and Invuln, although I see a strong case with those two sets. SR, Ninjitsu, and Stone have a pretty solid reasoning for KB protection. |
Widows get an almost exact copy of indomitable will from willpower (why, I don't know) but Soldiers lack KB protection - even the Crab spider, who gets a very nice armor toggle in fortification, doesn't have KB protection (although they do get tank level hold, stun, sleep and immobilize).
I think the fact that (almost) no melee AT's get KB protection really has no bearing on the fact that melee AT's get one type of status protection vs another. Melee AT's get status protection because they are either expected to be tanking for the squishier AT's (tankers, brutes and HEATs in tank form) or they are expected to be in close and exposed to more status effects than normal (scrappers, widows, VEATs) and need them to solo decently. The ONLY reasons to deny a melee AT a certain status protection are:
1) Concept
2) Balance between defensive sets.
As both you and bill have pointed out if KB protection is being left out of fire due to concept, there are several other sets that should not get it, although I would argue that only stone, invulnerabilty and maybe shields can justify KB protection, plus I agree that electric armor's implementation of grounded is also in concept. However regen, energy aura, SR, willpower and ice armor all have no real justification for knockback protection.
As for balance, it is pretty universal that fire is the squishiest armor set in the game, so none of the status protection holes make sense, including the psuedo-hole it has to immobilize since you don't get it until you get burn.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
I like the changes to the set, but as mentioned by someone else, it's not enough to make me want to invest time into another Fiery set. I will however give it a chance and pull out my 50 fire/ss tank to test it out, but honestly, I'm not expecting my feelings for the set to change. At all.
No kb protection, temporary immob protection, no defense, weak resistances, the list goes on. Ugh, needs more work Castle.
- Im Not Talking Fast, You're Just Listening Slow.
- To Each His Own
Topic: Still pretty low. Burn has been made less interesting by turning it into a boring old PBAoE attack, it can still only hit five enemies, and I doubt the extra damage is worth it.
The FE buff still seems pretty awesome but I'm still no more interested in making an FA character.
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SR and Ninjitsu seem to have the preternatural agility thing going, so I picture the always landing on your feet or rolling back to your feet quickly thing. While it would be more accurate to actually get moved and always land on your feet, simple knock protection works for me to simulate that feeling. Ninjitsu did lose out on that, which I understand, because I think they were going more for a very high agility and training, but not preternatural. I always pictured Wet Ice as constantly shifting ice floe. Maybe I read into it more than intended, but I figured it was the type of thing where you form ice to catch yourself as you fall or to create anchors or even appendages, maybe even changing your shape a bit so you could push away forces/materials trying to hold you in place.|
Originally Posted by EricHough
As both you and bill have pointed out if KB protection is being left out of fire due to concept, there are several other sets that should not get it, although I would argue that only stone, invulnerabilty and maybe shields can justify KB protection, plus I agree that electric armor's implementation of grounded is also in concept. However regen, energy aura, SR, willpower and ice armor all have no real justification for knockback protection.
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The mental type holds just come along for the ride in many sets because of game mechanic limitations.
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Originally Posted by EricHough
As for balance, it is pretty universal that fire is the squishiest armor set in the game, so none of the status protection holes make sense, including the psuedo-hole it has to immobilize since you don't get it until you get burn.
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No obvious concept reason for fear, confuse, taunt, or placate protection. Holds and immobs can be burned through, so that makes sense (again with the mental stuff coming along for the ride, as well as something like gravity). That leaves stuns with little conceptual grounds for protection, but it could be argued that all armored types are used to some beating so they build up resistance to disorients. I think it's cool that it is gaining end drain protection, fire may be easily blown around, but it's more difficult to put out. I still think it should be highly resistant vs. slows, but I haven't really seen too many other people agree with me on that, so I guess its not as conceptually obvious for fire to be quick and hard to contain as I think.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
Holy smokes is it ever worth it. This is like when they front-loaded the damage on Midnight Grasp, only times 5!
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Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
*snip!* and I doubt the extra damage is worth it. *snip!*
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Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP
Remember kids, crack is whack!
Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
Quote:
I see no reason why SR should have KB protection as opposed to DA or FA. Conceptually, FA and DA should be more sturdy because of their "armor" status. If anything SR shouldn't have KB protection if you're just going by concept. I imagine someone light and quick on their feet as an SR, so if you're unable to dodge the attack, you should get knocked around. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
First, its 2 armor sets that do not have KB protection. Pretty much everyone else in the game lacks it (Khelds get it in Dwarf, I am unsure how VEATs fare here). Rather than think of it as only two sets that lack KB protection, I generally think that there are X number of sets where I can get KB protection without dipping into pools or IOs and that X is a minority of my choices.
Just because is not the reason sets lack KB. There does not need to be a game balance reason to implement a design. Sometimes the concept is more important (or else why even have blasters at all ). Balance must certainly be considered, because if the concept and design implementation fall out of a good range, then it is likely you will have issues.However, I can see your point. It might be pretty stupid that Shields, Willpower, Regen, Electric, and Energy get KB protection (although I like the way Electric's KB protection was implemented and it seems to work concept-wise). It may even be a bit silly for Ice and Invuln, although I see a strong case with those two sets. SR, Ninjitsu, and Stone have a pretty solid reasoning for KB protection. |
Actually, that also makes a great point in game. Defense based sets are built around avoiding the status effects to begin with, making status protection even less important to them than resistance base sets who are almost always going to be struck.
The point is, even bringing in concept and disregarding balance, there is no reason why FA and DA shouldn't have some sort of KB protection.
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Sure this is. They just don't have it. So the question becomes, is enough of the other things they bring to the table make up for what they lack?|
Originally Posted by SevereCalamity
I see no reason why SR should have KB protection as opposed to DA or FA. Conceptually, FA and DA should be more sturdy because of their "armor" status. If anything SR shouldn't have KB protection if you're just going by concept. I imagine someone light and quick on their feet as an SR, so if you're unable to dodge the attack, you should get knocked around.
Actually, that also makes a great point in game. Defense based sets are built around avoiding the status effects to begin with, making status protection even less important to them than resistance base sets who are almost always going to be struck. The point is, even bringing in concept and disregarding balance, there is no reason why FA and DA shouldn't have some sort of KB protection. |
With some of the newer sets, it may not seem it, or may just not at all. :/
And I'm not saying people shouldn't think of ways to improve sets, but personally, I'd rather see other things than adding KB protection.
And in the end, if you don't like the set, don't play it.
I find Shields to be pretty dull, and most would say it's the best set out there.
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The BrandX Collection
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They're on fire and they're not running around screaming. There! Concept reason for fear protection found.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
No obvious concept reason for fear, confuse, taunt, or placate protection.
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Culex's resistance guide
I asked even, if we could simply have Knockback Resistance for Fiery Aura (and probably should have for Ninjitsu/Dark Armor) so at the very least KB debuffs could not be stacked. As it is right now, even if you get 12 KB protection through IOs, you're still worse off because while even though they seem rare, there is still a possibility that debuffs with a KB component will stack and eventually make the KB protection topple. I just checked and the KB resist you get is a ludicrous -10,000%. That flat-out denies the possibility of any KB ever stacking.
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Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
I agree on the KB side. I never saw any reason why Dark Armor, Ninjutsu and Fiery Aura should not have any KB prot, other than "just because". Even if it's not a big issue due to KB IOs being fairly common. And I will not use the 'but the game is balanced around SOs only' argument, because I never bought into it in the first place
Another question : any word on how Fiery Embrace performs on brutes ? Does it add a % of the low base dmg only, or of the improved dmg with Fury ?
Quote:
It has already been stated that the reason of "just because" is an idiotic reason for anything. It shows a lack of actual reasoning and should therefore be discarded as irrelevant and meaningless.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Sure this is. They just don't have it. So the question becomes, is enough of the other things they bring to the table make up for what they lack?
With some of the newer sets, it may not seem it, or may just not at all. :/ And I'm not saying people shouldn't think of ways to improve sets, but personally, I'd rather see other things than adding KB protection. And in the end, if you don't like the set, don't play it. I find Shields to be pretty dull, and most would say it's the best set out there. |
No, FA and DA's mitigation levels are low enough that having more holes in their mitigation is not in any way balanced.
I can understand your opinion that having other mitigation areas increased might be more beneficial than closing the KB hole.
The advice to not play a set because we don't like it is a waste of the time it took you to type it and has absolutely nothing to do with AT powerset balance.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Yes! Buff Dark Armor! Yesssssssssssssssssss. *rubs hands*|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
No, FA and DA's mitigation levels are low enough that having more holes in their mitigation is not in any way balanced.
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(OK, yes, I know I'm bringing Divine Avalanche and 8 billion in IOs to the table too. On its own, Dark Armor is just decent, and plugging holes is annoying. Overall, I have no opinion on this one.)
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
<.<|
Originally Posted by Werner
Yes! Buff Dark Armor! Yesssssssssssssssssss. *rubs hands*
(OK, yes, I know I'm bringing Divine Avalanche and 8 billion in IOs to the table too. On its own, Dark Armor is just decent, and plugging holes is annoying. Overall, I have no opinion on this one.) |
>.>
Do NOTHING but plug DA's KB hole.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
Actually, concept-wise, I don't see why SR and nin get kb protection, they don't strike me as 'sturdy'. Concept wise they would avoid kb by dodging blows, but if a blow connected, they should get knocked around.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
First, its 2 armor sets that do not have KB protection. Pretty much everyone else in the game lacks it (Khelds get it in Dwarf, I am unsure how VEATs fare here). Rather than think of it as only two sets that lack KB protection, I generally think that there are X number of sets where I can get KB protection without dipping into pools or IOs and that X is a minority of my choices.
Just because is not the reason sets lack KB. There does not need to be a game balance reason to implement a design. Sometimes the concept is more important (or else why even have blasters at all ). Balance must certainly be considered, because if the concept and design implementation fall out of a good range, then it is likely you will have issues.However, I can see your point. It might be pretty stupid that Shields, Willpower, Regen, Electric, and Energy get KB protection (although I like the way Electric's KB protection was implemented and it seems to work concept-wise). It may even be a bit silly for Ice and Invuln, although I see a strong case with those two sets. SR, Ninjitsu, and Stone have a pretty solid reasoning for KB protection. |
KB protection makes sense with stone (heavy stone armor), ice (heavy ice armor), wp (think a martial artists ability to mentally absorb ridiculous blows), while I could see invulnerability going either way, and elec has a wierd explanation/mechanic for its protection, but I can buy it.
I can see some scrappers getting knocked around, so I'm ok with the kb holes in some sets, especially now that there are many ways to remove said 'hole', but tankers should not be getting knocked around regardless of primary, so there I do have a problem with the kb holes.
But obviously, this is just a matter of opinion and taste, so obviously feelings will vary.
The KB holes I can live with. Somewhat.
I don't understand the -immob holes in both sets. Or rather why the -immob protection is placed in the powers it's placed in. Okay, Burn, I can KIND OF see the rational there (see, they burn the snares away, it's like the power name, clever!) but why Dark's stealth is also it's immob protection just baffles me.
"Your snares have no effect because I'm translucent!"
"...What is this, I don't even..."
Though I find a lot of the design decisions that have been around since launch follow similar paths of non-logic.
Virtue:
Miserya - 50 EM/ELA Brute (Perma-shelved)
Adriana Rayne - 42 Katana/Dark Scrapper
Cyberpulse - 26 Super Strength/Willpower Brute
Steel Heart - 24 Invuln/Super Strength Tanker
Quote:
For one, I think you underestimate FA's mitigation levels, especially with io's, by a bit, but I KNOW you are VASTLY underestimating DA's mitigation levels.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
It has already been stated that the reason of "just because" is an idiotic reason for anything. It shows a lack of actual reasoning and should therefore be discarded as irrelevant and meaningless.
No, FA and DA's mitigation levels are low enough that having more holes in their mitigation is not in any way balanced. I can understand your opinion that having other mitigation areas increased might be more beneficial than closing the KB hole. The advice to not play a set because we don't like it is a waste of the time it took you to type it and has absolutely nothing to do with AT powerset balance. |
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For DA, it's kind of becoming 'shadowy' whereas that power also grants defense which to me implies more than just translucence but also a bit of incorporeality. Thats just my take on that power.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Unholy
The KB holes I can live with. Somewhat.
I don't understand the -immob holes in both sets. Or rather why the -immob protection is placed in the powers it's placed in. Okay, Burn, I can KIND OF see the rational there (see, they burn the snares away, it's like the power name, clever!) but why Dark's stealth is also it's immob protection just baffles me. "Your snares have no effect because I'm translucent!" "...What is this, I don't even..." Though I find a lot of the design decisions that have been around since launch follow similar paths of non-logic. |
I am just not sure how much reworking it's going to take to make my Kat/FA that much more... scrapular. But it's totes gonna be worth it. Burn, your time is NOW!
The Story of a Petless MM with a dream
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
This entire post should receive some kind of award for being both hysterical and fantastic.
Well done. |
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Oh, yeah. I can sort of see that. Sort of. If we stretch it.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
For DA, it's kind of becoming 'shadowy' whereas that power also grants defense which to me implies more than just translucence but also a bit of incorporeality. Thats just my take on that power.
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I'm so used to even normal stealth powers giving +def that I didn't even stop to think that /Dark's might have been because you are semi-incorporeal.
Virtue:
Miserya - 50 EM/ELA Brute (Perma-shelved)
Adriana Rayne - 42 Katana/Dark Scrapper
Cyberpulse - 26 Super Strength/Willpower Brute
Steel Heart - 24 Invuln/Super Strength Tanker
Quote:
No, I'm not. DA's mitigation levels are not superior enough over the other sets to warrant the lack of KB protection. DA, thanks to all the tools it does have, appears to be right in line with the other sets. Since the other sets get KB protection, why shouldn't DA?|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
For one, I think you underestimate FA's mitigation levels, especially with io's, by a bit, but I KNOW you are VASTLY underestimating DA's mitigation levels.
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FA's mitigation levels are pathetic. I played it at level 50. IOed to the nines. It's crap. This is supposedly balanced out by its heightened damage output which is being buffed to a point in I-18 that the case can probably be made that it would be on par with the other sets IF it also had the KB hole closed.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
I been asking for this for like um 3 years know my suggestion was alright their kb mitigation is less at least give it a mag 4kb and 50% resistance that means you still need at least 1 IO to get close to the rest of the scrappers and at the same time do not force us into an IO or a stupid power pool to cover a hole in a melee set that has to stand in the middle of things
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
<.<
>.> Do NOTHING but plug DA's KB hole. |
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
What irks me is that if /Dark /Fire had been made in the last three years they very likely WOULDN'T have a KB hole or their immob protection in overly weird powers.
There were so many BAD Cryptic design choices in the early game. A lot of them have been eventually nuked (Unyielding rooting you is the first example I can think of), but there are some that continue to carry over for reasons no seems to be able to explain.
Virtue:
Miserya - 50 EM/ELA Brute (Perma-shelved)
Adriana Rayne - 42 Katana/Dark Scrapper
Cyberpulse - 26 Super Strength/Willpower Brute
Steel Heart - 24 Invuln/Super Strength Tanker
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
No, I'm not. DA's mitigation levels are not superior enough over the other sets to warrant the lack of KB protection. DA, thanks to all the tools it does have, appears to be right in line with the other sets. Since the other sets get KB protection, why shouldn't DA?
FA's mitigation levels are pathetic. I played it at level 50. IOed to the nines. It's crap. This is supposedly balanced out by its heightened damage output which is being buffed to a point in I-18 that the case can probably be made that it would be on par with the other sets IF it also had the KB hole closed. |
Well I can see where a soloist would think like that, but on teams DA and FA can be pretty nice, DA especially. DA's heal alone is ridiculously powerful, and how many sets pretty much negate all the minions you're facing with OG? And the damage auras add quite a bit of aoe damage to your offense, something people often overlook.
I wouldn't care if the kb holes were closed, or if they're not, but my biggest reason for replying to your post was when you said that DA's mitigation ability was 'low enough' to warrant removing the hole, which seemed to imply that you felt DA's mitigation ability was mediocre to poor, which I completely disagree with.
Just because is not the reason sets lack KB. There does not need to be a game balance reason to implement a design. Sometimes the concept is more important (or else why even have blasters at all
However, I can see your point. It might be pretty stupid that Shields, Willpower, Regen, Electric, and Energy get KB protection (although I like the way Electric's KB protection was implemented and it seems to work concept-wise). It may even be a bit silly for Ice and Invuln, although I see a strong case with those two sets. SR, Ninjitsu, and Stone have a pretty solid reasoning for KB protection.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.