Ugh, this debate over whether 4 points is enough or not is pointless and clouding the issues. However you get around the KB hole, it's a hole that FA and DA have to fill (unlike all the other defensive sets), AND NOTHING ABOUT THOSE SETS MERITS HAVING SUCH A HOLE TO FILL.
Sorry, had to put the caps in to drill it home. It's just that simple. There aren't good balance or thematic reasons to keep the hole there, and it's a detriment to both sets, no matter how many ways there might exist to get around it.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
My reply has been mixed in several of my posts. In my gameplay, I haven't found anything I can survive against anyway become a problem because the enemy has a Ballista or a a few Fake Nems.|
Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
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I have regularly played my Kat/Fire/Wpns scrapper with a just a bubbler (both a defender and a controller). In those cases I have frequently turned my difficulty up past +1 / X4. I know what that kind of defense means to me. Your build has that Defense (for most stuff) baked in and you have Tough and you have lots more passive regen.
Even when the bubbler goes AFK, just having the small bubbles makes me substantially tougher, despite the fact that I get knocked back on rare occasions.
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Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
What's going to stop the Energy KB attacks against me? What about Psionic ones? Or even Cold KB? Ranged KB and AoE KB attacks? I am not dropping any KB protection to allow those kinds of attacks to knock me back, regardless of how prevalent Smashing/Lethal might be mixed in with any of the listed attacks.
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You can do whatever you want. You can build to protect yourself from 0.1% of the game. But do you really think it is good advice to give to most players? Do you really think we should be telling people that if they want to play a FA scrapper (or brute or tanker) they need 12 pts of KB protection in order to function when fighting Nemesis and Council?
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
Ultimately, style and thematic reasons are the basis for many decisions. The entire blaster AT exists in that realm. If FA is falling below other sets in the dev performance metrics/data mining, I do not and will not ever believe the KB hole is a big reason why. |
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Ugh, this debate over whether 4 points is enough or not is pointless and clouding the issues. However you get around the KB hole, it's a hole that FA and DA have to fill (unlike all the other defensive sets), AND NOTHING ABOUT THOSE SETS MERITS HAVING SUCH A HOLE TO FILL.
Sorry, had to put the caps in to drill it home. It's just that simple. There aren't good balance or thematic reasons to keep the hole there, and it's a detriment to both sets, no matter how many ways there might exist to get around it. |
It is perfectly OK that FA has detriments. All sets should and I think they all do. They do not have to be perfectly equal in all hands. They do not have to be equally liked by all potential players. They certainly do not have to all have only the same set of detriments. I like FA as it was two weeks ago and I still like it now. I would probably like it even if they made it completely immune to all KB that ever could be done in the game, but I would mourn the loss of an interesting flaw.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
****. I just lost the entire post I was making. ****!
Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP
Remember kids, crack is whack!
Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
I don't want to write that wall of text again. It may not look like it, but this is the shortened version:
FA, DA, and Nin should not have their lack of KB protection because of thematic reasons. Giving these three KB protection would not make them the same. FA is still offensively focused, DA still has utility and an extreme heal while being a Resist set, and Nin has utility and a decent heal being a Defense set. Something like Shield Defense, however, can be built into an offense powerhouse and still has one of the best (if not the best) status protection covering Stun, Sleep, Hold, Confusion, Fear, Immobilization, Knockback, Repel, and with high end builds lets a Shield Defense user in on SR's shtick of capped Defense Debuff Resist. This game is going in an upward direction starting with the next Issue. With content to match the heights players will achieve from their new-found Incarnate powers.
Covering the KB hole with powers or IOs still presents the problem of stacked KB magnitude. Slotting for 4 KB protection when KB attacks that have higher magnitude than 4 will 100% knockback a person every time, and stacking KB magnitude will overcome higher numbers. Acrobatics and IOs provide no Knockback Resist at all, let alone 10,000% percent.
My Defense build with decent Recharge build would be able to get away with 4 KB protection as you suggest, but a decent Defense build with excellent Recharge and excellent Regeneration won't fare as well. My build is not the only one out there for the high end.
Hurricane, Tornado, Psionic Tornado, Bonfire, Force Bubble, Repulsion Field, Repel, Sonic Repulsion, Lightning Clap, Electron Haze, Solar Flare, Dawn Strike, Gravitic Emanation, Quasar, Torrent, and Singularity Repel. These are the ones without a Smashing/Lethal component to them. All of them listed are over 4 KB magnitude. Some of them don't even do any Damage to be dodged. There are many more that do use Smashing/Lethal Damage. Sure I can build whatever I want, but so can everybody else. Those that do not build for Smashing/Lethal Defense, instead focusing on other aspects of their characters are worse off from the lack of KB protection. Again, my build isn't the only one out there possible.
I'm not going to suggest a person with a high end build to do a "in those cases I have frequently turned my difficulty up past +1 / X4" kind of mission. I'm going to tell them to do a +4/x8 TF. Or solo a an AV. Or get a better Pylon time. Or do a RWZ Challenge. It's kind of what the subset of people on the Scrapper forums pushing our characters to the ragged edge like to do. In I19 the edge is going to be pushed even further, with new high end content to go along with it.
Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP
Remember kids, crack is whack!
Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
Stick on TP... if you like getting tossed around then skip it...
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You keep suggesting that FA needs detriments, like those of us against the KB hole think it should have no detriments. It's supposed to be a more offensive set, so it should reflect that for sure (which is why the new changes were merited, as it was not really doing the offense it was supposed to). It is most certainly less survivable than other sets as well, which is its detriment (not the KB hole... that is added on top of it). It doesn't have a +HP function, defense to stack on, and while its resists are nice, they only do so much. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Ultimately, style and thematic reasons are the basis for many decisions. The entire blaster AT exists in that realm. If FA is falling below other sets in the dev performance metrics/data mining, I do not and will not ever believe the KB hole is a big reason why.
It is perfectly OK that FA has detriments. All sets should and I think they all do. They do not have to be perfectly equal in all hands. They do not have to be equally liked by all potential players. They certainly do not have to all have only the same set of detriments. I like FA as it was two weeks ago and I still like it now. I would probably like it even if they made it completely immune to all KB that ever could be done in the game, but I would mourn the loss of an interesting flaw. |
Even if you took away the KB hole, FA would still have balance and "detriments." The KB hole is going over and above those detriments, making the set even weaker. And again, nothing about the set warrants having a KB hole on top of those weaknesses.
And I'm glad you like Fiery Aura. I like it too. I've been playing it since I joined the game in its first month (and this was before learning that Burn was all that and a bag of chips... I've never found the idea of dumpster burning to be all that fun). This has everything to do with balancing the set, however.
I'm not even touching your interesting flaw comment. Most people despise being knocked back in this game, and the way it's set up, being knocked back is certainly a weakness: especially for a melee AT. Fiery Aura would be perfectly interesting and have its own style if it had the KB hole filled.
Go ahead and like it if you want, but the majority of people don't like being knocked back. You're a bit beyond the pale on that one.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
Ironically, I would reduce the other detriments a bit and leave the KB hole as is. The KB detriment is interesting. The race to zero hitpoints is less interesting. |
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Even if you took away the KB hole, FA would still have balance and "detriments." The KB hole is going over and above those detriments, making the set even weaker. And again, nothing about the set warrants having a KB hole on top of those weaknesses.
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You ever play FA without Tough? Ever slot it for pure offense (OK, the +recharge is great for Healing Flames too)? Its other weaknesses are for more dramatic and require tons more IOs to "cover" than the KB hole. And they are not as effectively covered as KB is, IME.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Go ahead and like it if you want, but the majority of people don't like being knocked back. You're a bit beyond the pale on that one.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
/thread|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Stick on TP... if you like getting tossed around then skip it...
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Thread over.
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Remember kids, crack is whack!
Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
What's going to stop the Energy KB attacks against me? What about Psionic ones? Or even Cold KB? Ranged KB and AoE KB attacks? I am not dropping any KB protection to allow those kinds of attacks to knock me back, regardless of how prevalent Smashing/Lethal might be mixed in with any of the listed attacks.
Where is your reply to this post?
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Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it