City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

I18: Fiery Aura and your interest in the set.

Agonus

By Agonus,
Posted on: 2010-08-11 23:05 in Scrappers

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hejtmane View Post
I been asking for this for like um 3 years know my suggestion was alright their kb mitigation is less at least give it a mag 4kb and 50% resistance that means you still need at least 1 IO to get close to the rest of the scrappers and at the same time do not force us into an IO or a stupid power pool to cover a hole in a melee set that has to stand in the middle of things
Thats a good solution, I've suggested that in the past for tankers. Seeing tankers get pushed around just seems wrong on every level.

 

Posted

Quote:
Well I can see where a soloist would think like that, but on teams DA and FA can be pretty nice, DA especially. DA's heal alone is ridiculously powerful, and how many sets pretty much negate all the minions you're facing with OG? And the damage auras add quite a bit of aoe damage to your offense, something people often overlook.
Translation: Things with team buffs aren't as bad as when they don't have team buffs. Ok.

Everything else you stated is just as true solo as when on teams. Damage auras add damage. True. SD gets an AoE and a variable damage buff aura but still has KB protection. Elec gets a damage aura and KB protection.

I can see where you misinterpreted my post. My intention was not to say that DA sucks. My intention was to state that DA isn't superior to the other sets in any way that warrants it being penalized with the KB hole.

Be well, people of CoH.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
It has already been stated that the reason of "just because" is an idiotic reason for anything. It shows a lack of actual reasoning and should therefore be discarded as irrelevant and meaningless.

No, FA and DA's mitigation levels are low enough that having more holes in their mitigation is not in any way balanced.

I can understand your opinion that having other mitigation areas increased might be more beneficial than closing the KB hole.

The advice to not play a set because we don't like it is a waste of the time it took you to type it and has absolutely nothing to do with AT powerset balance.
My question wasn't answered. Is the set balanced? All I really hear is Fire Armor is squishier than other sets, but brings more damage to the table than any other armor set, except Shields.

So maybe what needs to be done, is make it so Shield Defense isn't so powerful, perhaps by gutting it's defense debuff resistance. So that, sure, it can get softcap, but it will fall just as fast to the debuffs as a softcapped to melee Fire Armor scrappers.

Or...go back and remove the KB protection from all the sets that KB protection may not make sense with.

I'd say make the various forms of holds and knockback resistable differently, but I don't think the engine is capable of that.

IE...Fire Armor can be hold/immobilize protected by burning away at a lot of holds, but a mental hold they'd be out of luck with.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Unholy View Post
What irks me is that if /Dark /Fire had been made in the last three years they very likely WOULDN'T have a KB hole or their immob protection in overly weird powers.

There were so many BAD Cryptic design choices in the early game. A lot of them have been eventually nuked (Unyielding rooting you is the first example I can think of), but there are some that continue to carry over for reasons no seems to be able to explain.
Actually, letting some of those other armor sets status protection allow you to move is probably what caused a lot of problems. It is a shame they did not make the toggle suppression instead of drop mechanic back in I2/I3. That way you could have actually played without turning Unyielding Stance on and without perma-unstop and still be viable.

Armored ATs, in general, have too much status protection, much more than was intended and much more than is probably good for balance. Back when toggles dropped, that made sense, since mez was often a death sentence, especially on a tanker. Now that they fixed that, it would probably be much cooler if armored ATs status protection were less complete across the board.

I am not advocating for that change and I do not believe that change would ever occur. However, I would also not fight that change.

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What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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Posted

DA and FA are also different once you get to the end game, by a fair amount, just by what you're fighting.

DA is very strong against energy and psionic enemies. Fire is strong against... Fire.

There's so much more energy and psionic stuff late game it's nuts. Fire is VERY occasional.

Truly, I don't mind the KB hole THAT much, but I'll let the super-number crunchers tell that story. I don't spend that much time in the end game, so I tend not to notice the more glaring design issues. Everything's balanced in the 20s.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut View Post
Thats a good solution, I've suggested that in the past for tankers. Seeing tankers get pushed around just seems wrong on every level.
I assume this would automatically go to brutes, stalkers and tanks for these sets that match the scrappers and I throw in Ninjitsu as well for stalkers

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Posted

I could say, "Just give FA/DA/Nin on Test KB protection and we'll see how it works out." but that wouldn't really do much. I mean, I could just make a MIDs build that doesn't have any KB Protection IOs to emulate "how it would be."

Ugh. Frustration.

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Posted

[QUOTE=Cyber_naut;3114792]Actually, concept-wise, I don't see why SR and nin get kb protection, they don't strike me as 'sturdy'. Concept wise they would avoid kb by dodging blows, but if a blow connected, they should get knocked around.

QUOTE]

Not disagreeing with you, but if "Acrobatics" somehow gives KB protection (I never got that), I guess it's not a far stretch for SR and Nin to get it, too. Maybe they are getting knocked around, but always landing on their feet.

 

Posted

Between "Scrappers cannot have Super Strength because they are finesse fighters" and "Super Reflexes doesn't strike me as the sturdy type; should get knocked back if the attack lands," I think we've established that making changes based on RP logic for or against anything is a very bad idea.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by sprintstnyc View Post
DA is very strong against energy and psionic enemies. Fire is strong against... Fire.
Lmao! It's funny because it's true.

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Posted

[QUOTE=Sir_Lionheart;3115749]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut View Post
Actually, concept-wise, I don't see why SR and nin get kb protection, they don't strike me as 'sturdy'. Concept wise they would avoid kb by dodging blows, but if a blow connected, they should get knocked around.

QUOTE]

Not disagreeing with you, but if "Acrobatics" somehow gives KB protection (I never got that), I guess it's not a far stretch for SR and Nin to get it, too. Maybe they are getting knocked around, but always landing on their feet.
That works. But I guess if you're creative enough you can justify just about anything, which is why I said the kb argument ultimately isn't a matter of what is right or wrong, but a matter of opinion.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hejtmane View Post
I assume this would automatically go to brutes, stalkers and tanks for these sets that match the scrappers and I throw in Ninjitsu as well for stalkers
No, imo, tanks should have the best kb protection, followed by brutes, then scrappers, then stalkers. Just my opinion.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
Translation: Things with team buffs aren't as bad as when they don't have team buffs. Ok.

Everything else you stated is just as true solo as when on teams. Damage auras add damage. True. SD gets an AoE and a variable damage buff aura but still has KB protection. Elec gets a damage aura and KB protection.

I can see where you misinterpreted my post. My intention was not to say that DA sucks. My intention was to state that DA isn't superior to the other sets in any way that warrants it being penalized with the KB hole.
But a set like DA is superior to other sets when its on a team. I wasn't talking about teamates helping the DA mitigate damage, I was talking about DA helping to mitigate damage for the entire team. OG alone perma stuns every minion in range, which provides great team damage mitigation (or you can go fear with CoF). The heal works better with more enemies in range, and its a heal that with a few baddies nearby that can take you from 1 health to full. The damage aura obviously is helpful to a team not only due to aoe damage but additional aggro control. Then look at a set like SR, that literally brings no additional team benefits, and the team advantages are clear.

It's also got some unique toys that other sets dont have like a self rez (with an aoe mag 30 stun...) and stealth, so it makes sense that some other sets would have something it does not, like kb protection.

 

Posted

I'll give you that SR brings nothing to a team, hell, Castle won't even give scrapper SR a taunt aura, but that doesn't explain the other goodies out there. Regen's another set that offers a team nothing.

Invul gets one of the best taunt auras available which assists teams.
Elec gets end drain and a damage aura.
Shield gets both the taunt aura and the knock mitigation from shield charge.

While I won't argue that DA's mez isn't beneficial to teams, its self-heal is irrelevant here. A good DA player will be sitting in the same sized spawns solo as teamed.

I don't see DA's mez providing any more team mitigation that the three sets I've listed here and they all get KB protection.

Be well, people of CoH.

 

Posted

I hope going forward no more Scrapper secondaries are ever going to have the KB protection hole.

I'm saddened that no amount of discussion we had for getting Fiery Aura the KB protection hole removed did not make it into this pass. I don't remember when the last balance pass was for Fiery Aura, but it sure was a long time ago. I tried, but it seems the boat has sailed. I'm not sure this topic will be revisited on the developer side in a very, very long time.

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Posted

Might actually dress up my Katana/Fire again...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Might actually dress up my Katana/Fire again...
Oh? Can I see what kind of build your Katana/Fire has, or perhaps the one they will have post-I18?

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards View Post
Oh? Can I see what kind of build your Katana/Fire has, or perhaps the one they will have post-I18?
Haven't really done anything for i18...
Here's a build I was messin with but never really made it to live. Built to run GC-GD-GC-SD with both the -res. Cap melee with 1x DA. Was really built more for damage than anything else...

Code:
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ohhhh endurance would probably have some issue and not to mention the immo

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
I'll give you that SR brings nothing to a team, hell, Castle won't even give scrapper SR a taunt aura, but that doesn't explain the other goodies out there. Regen's another set that offers a team nothing.

Invul gets one of the best taunt auras available which assists teams.
Elec gets end drain and a damage aura.
Shield gets both the taunt aura and the knock mitigation from shield charge.

While I won't argue that DA's mez isn't beneficial to teams, its self-heal is irrelevant here. A good DA player will be sitting in the same sized spawns solo as teamed.

I don't see DA's mez providing any more team mitigation that the three sets I've listed here and they all get KB protection.
I'd say that keeping all minions stunned while in a mob is superior to all of the team assists you listed. Then on top of that DA matches the damage aura which also provides some aggro management. It's also got a fear aura if you want to go that way. And its rez has an aoe mag 30 stun. And its got stealth if you need someone to sneak to an objective. No secondary comes close to DA in terms of team advantages.

Having said that I can see the argument where all melee classes should have at least some kb protection, but then again, I can see the argument where its ok that some don't.

 

Posted

Whoah, just found ou about the changes in Fiery Aura and will have to revisit my long forgotten MA/Fire when I get back to EU servers.

As soon as I18 is live, I'm soooooo gonna roll a DM/Fire Scrapper.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightmarer View Post
Whoah, just found ou about the changes in Fiery Aura and will have to revisit my long forgotten MA/Fire when I get back to EU servers.

As soon as I18 is live, I'm soooooo gonna roll a DM/Fire Scrapper.
I have a DM/Fire. The changes should help a little bit with her lack of AoE.

Your MA/Fire is getting a huge boost.

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Posted

My Fire/Fire scrap has languished in the late 20s-early 30's for a while because of all the 'usless' powers it had. Since I saw the buffs in closed I've been leveling him live- I can't wait! Is Fire/Fire squishy, yup- but I look at it as a mini-game by itself.... "Can I kill everything before they kill me.. lets find out- BANZAI!"

Thematically I understand the no KB protection in Fire but in DA and Definitely in Nin it makes NO sense at all. At least with FA I can take Temp Protection (at some point in a build you will hit a level where you don't have any 'good' power choices) and chuck a Steadfast in it without any Build juggling. DA and Nin don't have that luxury and either have to sacrifice a slot somewhere that could be out to better use. (Stalker DA excluded- ty Shadow Dweller) I'm with bAss- I am very disappointed that the KB hole still exists and will be with us for a while. Maybe when Nin gets ported to Scrappers we can get that fixed at least!



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benchpresser View Post
DA and Nin don't have that luxury and either have to sacrifice a slot somewhere that could be out to better use.
Combat jumping?

Culex's resistance guide

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benchpresser View Post

Thematically I understand the no KB protection in Fire but in DA and Definitely in Nin it makes NO sense at all. At least with FA I can take Temp Protection (at some point in a build you will hit a level where you don't have any 'good' power choices) and chuck a Steadfast in it without any Build juggling. DA and Nin don't have that luxury and either have to sacrifice a slot somewhere that could be out to better use. (Stalker DA excluded- ty Shadow Dweller) I'm with bAss- I am very disappointed that the KB hole still exists and will be with us for a while. Maybe when Nin gets ported to Scrappers we can get that fixed at least!
I wish I had your view on things. I wish I had a level where I didn't have any good power choices. I'm very torn between losing a power pick for acrobatics and wasting slots for an IO I shouldn't even have to slot on a melee character. Why should I have to slot a knockback IO in combat jumping when another scrapper can put a LoTG: +Rech IO in it?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SevereCalamity View Post
I wish I had your view on things. I wish I had a level where I didn't have any good power choices. I'm very torn between losing a power pick for acrobatics and wasting slots for an IO I shouldn't even have to slot on a melee character. Why should I have to slot a knockback IO in combat jumping when another scrapper can put a LoTG: +Rech IO in it?
That's my thinking on the matter. The KB (and Immob) hole for Fiery Aura is a double negative to me. Waste of power slots and waste of power choices.

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