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They have? Unless I missed all the "Make Fury Less Awesome" threads.|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
yeah, cause it's not like people haven't been wanting changes to Fury for several years or anything.
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I'll admit I'm not happy with the changes, but as I said it could have been worse. It's not the end of the world. Brutes are still awesome. I just want to know, why the nerf now?
They claimed it was to balance brutes against scrappers and tankers. Shouldn't that have come sooner? We've had hero/villain co-op since the V-Day event in 2006. Issue 10 gave us the Rikti War Zone and co-op teaming was commonplace. Issue 12 reinforced co-op teaming with Cimerora. Fury was just fine then.
I'm pretty sure it all boiled down to the doomsaying that "archetype X is going to replace archetype Y come Going Rogue". People claimed corruptors were going to replace defenders. Vigilance was buffed recently. They claimed brutes were going to replace tankers. Tankers got a HP buff and the Bruising effect. Brutes got a Fury nerf.
This version at least appears more stable at maintaining Fury than the rapid decline you would usually see.
As it stands, I'll pretty much check this "nerf" akin to the "nerf" of Psi Assault.
That "rapid" deciline never bothered me since building it back up again didnt take that long.
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This.|
Originally Posted by Terror1
That "rapid" deciline never bothered me since building it back up again didnt take that long.
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and
This
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| I'm pretty sure it all boiled down to the doomsaying that "archetype X is going to replace archetype Y come Going Rogue". People claimed corruptors were going to replace defenders. Vigilance was buffed recently. They claimed brutes were going to replace tankers. Tankers got a HP buff and the Bruising effect. Brutes got a Fury nerf. |
I never got a chance to Team with my Brute in OB, but live I solo a lot at +8 spawns, and I did that several times in Beta. I never had to reduce my Enemy Count lower than +8. True, I had difficulty reaching 90% fury (never did actually), but near 80% seemed quite sufficient.
Yes, I'm wondering what teaming will be like, but really, Scrappers and Tankers are 'fine' as is, but Brutes simply are better across the board (yes, I have a lvl 50 Tanker and Scrapper too). A little better or a lot better is debatable, but they are better, and I'm fine with them being put squarely between the two Offensively and Defensively, via slight Fury Nerf and Tanker buff.
Alas, poor Stalkers... 
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It actually started from a completely unjustified buff on beta for Brutes which started a larger conversation about Brute's role. Brutes had the damage of Scrappers and defenses that could rival Tankers. That's broken and it took long enough, but we're closer to being balanced.
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Originally Posted by Silver_Tooth
I'm pretty sure it all boiled down to the doomsaying that "archetype X is going to replace archetype Y come Going Rogue". People claimed corruptors were going to replace defenders. Vigilance was buffed recently. They claimed brutes were going to replace tankers. Tankers got a HP buff and the Bruising effect. Brutes got a Fury nerf.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I'd complain too! |
Originally Posted by Warkupo
"If we weren't killing the enemies so quickly I could kill faster!"
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The answer to this is...|
Originally Posted by Ryuuk
So what I didn't get so far is why after all these years they felt it necessary to make this change, or any change to Brutes. In my opinion, Brutes are pretty balanced compared to Scrappers. Brutes have better peak performance but Scrappers are much more consistent. This change seems like it was designed to make Brutes play more consistently like Scrappers, except that they still start off fights extremely weak. Certainly Brutes don't need any more incentive than they already have to solo.
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This.
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Originally Posted by Silver_Tooth
T
I'm pretty sure it all boiled down to the doomsaying that "archetype X is going to replace archetype Y come Going Rogue". People claimed corruptors were going to replace defenders. Vigilance was buffed recently. They claimed brutes were going to replace tankers. Tankers got a HP buff and the Bruising effect. Brutes got a Fury nerf. |
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Originally Posted by EvilGecko
Brutes had the damage of Scrappers and defenses that could rival Tankers
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I'd go over them, but I'm pretty sure that you're aware of them and will probably continue to ignore them anyway.
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It ignores nothing and we went over this for untold pages in beta. I play just as many Brutes as Scrappers and Tankers. Brutes were broken, and the very, very mild reduction they got is well and truly balanced by the improvements to Fury.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Your statement here completely ignores several very important factors.
I'd go over them, but I'm pretty sure that you're aware of them and will probably continue to ignore them anyway. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I see this change going vastly unnoticed for the many that don't visit the forums and maybe noticed when people fight AVs/GMs.
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Originally Posted by Terror1
That "rapid" deciline never bothered me since building it back up again didnt take that long.
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The reason they haven't been changed until now (I imagine) is part professional testing (theories and hypothesis is great, but it's amateurish to just throw numbers in without having a hands on experience of how they'll react), and part because Brutes are expected to be exposed to Tankers/Scrappers on a much larger level once Going Rogue is live.
While I can't speak for the testing of Closed Beta, there has actually been a *lot* of documentation about the disparity between Brutes and Tanker/Scrapper previous to GR in the Scrapper forum. I imagine that such documentation has become more accurate in Closed Beta, where the AT's could be examined side by side in the actual game on a more consistent basis, rather than the confines of a spreadsheet.
I don't have an opinion on whether or not this should have been done sooner (it didn't really matter to me), but I'd have been miffed if something wasn't done until after GR.
I play as a Battle Axe / Fiery Aura brute.
So far what I read on I am feeling the nerf for Fury damage was not needed.
The one update to brute i like although would be the reduction rate.
Everything else is fine untill i see for my self in 5 days.
Zuxlan,
Just so ya know, Castle did his brute testing with a battle axe.
Be well, people of CoH.
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That's only at the high-end spectrum of things. Brutes base "defenses" are the same as Scrappers, only their caps can reach Tanker levels. While solo a Brute will have the damage of Scrappers and the defenses of Scrappers with minor differences such as more HP and higher resistance on certain powers(fire resistance on /FA).|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Brutes had the damage of Scrappers and defenses that could rival Tankers.
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After, you factor in team buffs to make a Brute into a Tank they will be more survivable than a Scrapper of course. But, if you buff up a Scrapper the same way, I'm sure you wouldn't even notice the difference between the Scrapper and Brute.
As for the Fury changes, I can't comment much on it since I haven't had the chance to personally test it. Although, from the sounds of it I don't like them. I never had a problem building Fury solo or on large teams. I see it's suppose to help for Fury building against AV's and GM's, but in reality I can reach "full" Fury against them with how it works currently. Solo, I'm consistently able to keep 80%-90% Fury. If I can no longer do that, in my eyes it's a small nerf.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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Brutes have higher HP, a benefit that always works, and means that Brutes are always more survivable than Scrappers. |
Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
That's only at the high-end spectrum of things. Brutes base "defenses" are the same as Scrappers, only their caps can reach Tanker levels. While solo a Brute will have the damage of Scrappers and the defenses of Scrappers with minor differences such as more HP and higher resistance on certain powers(fire resistance on /FA).
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| After, you factor in team buffs to make a Brute into a Tank they will be more survivable than a Scrapper of course. But, if you buff up a Scrapper the same way, I'm sure you wouldn't even notice the difference between the Scrapper and Brute. |
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| As for the Fury changes, I can't comment much on it since I haven't had the chance to personally test it. Although, from the sounds of it I don't like them. I never had a problem building Fury solo or on large teams. I see it's suppose to help for Fury building against AV's and GM's, but in reality I can reach "full" Fury against them with how it works currently. Solo, I'm consistently able to keep 80%-90% Fury. If I can no longer do that, in my eyes it's a small nerf. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
It ignores nothing..
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I know lot of players take it as a given that every brute everywhere has been running around with perma-90% fury and perma-resistance cap from buffs while sitting at the HP cap regardless of their secondary - but just because people tout it as so, doesn't make it true.
Seeing as little to no real testing was done on Fury in group situations, I'll wait til I can get some regular teaming in before my final judgment on the whole of the changes made to Fury.
Solo it's not a very large nerf and nothing people should go crazy about, and I agree that the improvements made to degradation will help the average player while solo.
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
While I can't speak for the testing of Closed Beta, there has actually been a *lot* of documentation about the disparity between Brutes and Tanker/Scrapper previous to GR in the Scrapper forum. I imagine that such documentation has become more accurate in Closed Beta, where the AT's could be examined side by side in the actual game on a more consistent basis, rather than the confines of a spreadsheet.
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There was a lot of testing done in Jury rigged AE situations using custom mobs, some spreadsheet calculations and some simulations.
I saw very little in the way of "testimonials" from people testing fury in a team situation, it might be fine but I don't think there has been really much testing on that particular aspect.
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Fury is variable, not situational. No Brute is in combat and without the benefit of Fury. Prior to the changes, it was very easy to surpass average Scrapper damage. Now it's difficult to do so, but still possible. |
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
You mean aside from Brute damage and Brute defenses being situational, and potential as opposed to consistent?
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And Brutes are ALWAYS more survivable than Scrappers. Not sometimes, always. The Max health advantage is always there.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
EG, while it may be *possible* for brutes to surpass the damage output of an identically built scrapper, due to the way fury was tweaked it is HIGHLY improbable.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Blessed be to Castle for that. But yes, you're right.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
EG, while it may be *possible* for brutes to surpass the damage output of an identically built scrapper, due to the way fury was tweaked it is HIGHLY improbable.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
So fury got castled thanks to scrapper envy, kk.
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Fixed. |
Originally Posted by Terror1
So fury got castled thanks to JUST scrapper envy, kk.
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Broke AT is broke.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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That's not scrapper envy. That would be brute envy if that was actually the case. If they actually paid attention to the gripes and moans on the scrapper boards, a furry nerf would have been the last thing on the list. |
Originally Posted by Terror1
So fury got castled thanks to scrapper envy, kk.
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When I took my claw/sr brute to the cim wall on GR beta, I wanted to cry. The speed they dropped was close to what it is on live. The big issue for me was seeing all that space on my furry bar that I couldn't fill. No matter how many slashes, spins, swipes, strikes, follow-ups, focuses I threw. No matter how many times they threw bombs, spears, or tried to cut me in half with their swords... It... Just... Wouldn't... Fill
"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.
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I wouldn't say that Brutes were any more broken relative to Scrappers than Scrappers currently are relative to Stalkers.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Fixed.
Broke AT is broke. |
In fact, if the Stalker community was as vocal as the Scrapper community, I wouldn't be surprised if the self buff modifier of 1.0 and 0.8 was swapped between the two ATs-- ie a nerf to Scrapper's burst damage and a buff to that of Stalkers.
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Lobbying is nice huh
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Fixed.
Broke AT is broke. |
I'll still be playing mine regardless.