Discussion: 75 Month Veteran Reward


Acemace

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turgenev View Post
The entire playerbase does have access. They just need to put in the time. No one's forbidden from getting them, they just haven't gotten them "yet".
So they have access... except for when access is, in fact, forbidden them due to ridiculous time requirements.


Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

Posted

This might be nice when I get it in 2011 but it's also the kind of thing that could be added to lower rewards along with a champions-style xp boost to level 20. Add a 5% increase to the 45 month for example.


Tyger (50), Mutation-Controller Mind/FF - oldest Mind/FF on Union
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Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
So they have access... except for when access is, in fact, forbidden them due to ridiculous time requirements.
That's a perception issue. You call it ridiculous. I call it working as designed with no harm done to anyone. No need to change, IMO.


 

Posted

Think of it as your job. When you are hired, initially, you aren't paid as well as others who have been there for a while longer than you. Then, as you work, you get paid better.

Why can't a game do the same with rewards?


 

Posted

A slight change to vet rewards could please more people. Let you PICK your reward from the list every 3 months. Those who have all the rewards this won't change what they have. Those starting now or behind can pick what fits their needs/wants without feeling the need to never "catch up". Sure most will pick all the cool stuff first then be left with just costum tokens but hey why not. With the new expansion hitting maybe more might like a free character slot over say Tech Armor. Maybe someone is a base builder and wants to pick all the base perks first. See every one would get what they wanted and no one would be left out.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohloh View Post
Think of it as your job. [...] Why can't a game do the same with rewards?
Because they don't pay me to play the game. I pay them.

This isn't work. This is play. This is fun.

Does DisneyLand have special rides that only long-time repeat customers can ride?
Does K-Mart have special goods only purchasable after you've shopped there ten times before?
Does McDonald's have special menu items only available after you've bought twenty Big Macs?

Games aren't jobs. Any analogies that use jobs as their basis are already off on the wrong foot.


 

Posted

MMOs are described as a second job by many players.

Pick and choose from various sources on benefits work. Airlines have benefits for those that fly more, and you pay them.

Sams club has special discounts to members with a membership fee.
Gas stations, using their credit cards gets you special discounts.

See, i can do the same.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohloh View Post
MMOs are described as a second job by many players.
Other MMOs, that we don't talk about around here. Not this one.

Quote:
See, i can do the same.
Every single one of those examples is based off the model of "people that give us more business", not "people that have been here the longest". Following those examples leads to the much hated "buying rewards" suggestion, and not to the "accept the system" suggestion.


 

Posted

Every single one of your examples are as well.

Fine.

Credit card companies can give special discounts to customers that have been with them for a long time.

Banks do the same.

Insurance companies do the same.

Excluding this game from all other MMOs is a poor excuse to dismiss my point.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohloh View Post
Excluding this game from all other MMOs is a poor excuse to dismiss my point.
No, it's not. This MMO is not like other MMOs. This MMO doesn't have an end game (not yet, anyway - and we don't really know what the end game will look like).
This game is expressly stated by Devs to be designed for alts, not for long-term investment in a single character.

This game is unique in the MMO world for how much of the investment in a character is up-front, in character generation. Other MMOs have you "build up" to a particular look, power, and feel for your character. City of Heroes allows you to craft your look and feel, and the direction of your powers, right from level 1.

This game is more about exploring characters and possibilities than other MMOs. This game is not about the grind of levels, the advancement of gear, the swapping of abilities. Characters grow and gain ability, but almost all will still use their low-tier abilities alongside those, while in other MMOs you swap out old abilities for new.

The costume creator is the biggest thing that sets this MMO apart from other games. It is the single most powerful marketing tool the game has; the single most powerful feature for drawing people away from other games. Needlessly hampering that feature, even in minor ways, just because you're not sure this new customer might be "loyal enough" (represented by veteran time) is simply bad business.

Comparing City of Heroes to "other MMOs" is a serious slight to City of Heroes. This is not other MMOs. It's something better.


 

Posted

Just because a game is unique does not mean it cannot be defined in the same criteria used in other games. Take Torchlight for example. Your character builds up exactly the same way as you do in CoH (just doesn't have the character designer). You get items (or enhancements) to make your toon more powerful. You can follow any line of story you want. Your character gains and grows abilities, but still uses their lower-level ones.

Weird I just described another game using CoH playstyle? But it's unique? Yes, in its own way, but can still be described in general context.

Torchlight feels like a job to me, just as CoH does, but one that I ENJOY.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are several games out there that allow you to customize your characters look right from the start as well.

If a single feature is strong enough to pull a customer from their current game for how it is, that feature has done its job. Do you honestly think a customer that comes from another game will give up the game because they have to play it to get a certain perk in addition to the feature?

How you play the game is how you play it, I might play it differently. My goal could be getting as many enhancements as i can. Or as much influence. I could not want to play the story-aspect of the game or care what my character looks like (Which I rarely do).

Better is opinion, and does not carry any weight in a debate or argument.

Comparison to other games is the best way to weigh how valuable something is. Without any perspective, there is no argument.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandu View Post
So do we get +10% inf when out of SG mode?
In fact you do.

When out of SG mode, you earn 0 prestige.

10% * 0 = 0


Global name: @k26dp

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohloh View Post
Comparison to other games is the best way to weigh how valuable something is. Without any perspective, there is no argument.
I do compare with other games. That's why I play this one, and not those other ones. And it's exactly this point that makes your "but other games do it" a poor argument. Other games do lots of other things. I don't play those games. Why would I want this game to be more like games I don't enjoy playing?

And now, back to this (I had to mull on exactly why these examples were poor, but I got to it.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohloh View Post
Credit card companies can give special discounts to customers that have been with them for a long time.

Banks do the same.

Insurance companies do the same.
In every one of these examples, the company is making as much of an investment in the customer as the customer is making in the company. The long-term benefits, in this case, are the company rewarding their investment in the customer - this customer has proven trustworthy and a safe investment of funds and risk. There is no good way, other than time, to judge the investment value of a customer in these cases. Only time and experience can tell the creditors, the insurers, the bankers, that risking money on you will not be a loss for them.

This analogy fails to transfer to games because games do not make investments in their players. The game does not risk thousands or millions on each new customer; a fly-by-night customer is not a potential loss, just a loss of potential. There is no risk that needs ameliorating in an MMO customer - there is no investment made in a veteran, no return to pay off.

In credit, being a long-term customer means you have been proved to be reliable and steady, and thus worthy of additional credit. Being a long-term subscriber to a game means nothing but that you enjoy the game, and have for a long time. It means absolutely nothing more.

A successful customer retention program should give small benefits to your long-term customers without denying central benefits to newcomers. CoX's Veteran Rewards fail at this, because they remove central benefits (costume pieces) from new customers.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan View Post
And it's exactly this point that makes your "but other games do it" a poor argument. Other games do lots of other things. I don't play those games. Why would I want this game to be more like games I don't enjoy playing?

So why do you want CoH to be like other games in regards to duration of play?

The PoV you made on my examples are very excellent, and they are indeed poor examples. I can't really think of any examples that couldn't be torn apart by the same types of dismantling.

The benefits that the game gives based on duration of play are various. A minor boost to something to you, could be a major benefit for others. I don't see the character creation as a major part of my play, since i rarely ever go into character creation. I enjoy my high level toons because I enjoy the high level action.

The dev's might say that character creation is a major part of the game for them, but I'm a developer for software, and what I say is a major part of the program is a minor part to everyone else (until it breaks).

Perspective of what is important is in the eye of the beholder. There really is no win to this argument unless they make every single one of the rewards available to everyone. You cannot pick and choose the rewards that you give, someone will be left unhappy.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohloh View Post
A minor boost to something to you, could be a major benefit for others. I don't see the character creation as a major part of my play, since i rarely ever go into character creation. I enjoy my high level toons because I enjoy the high level action.
The primary difference I see here is that while other Veteran Rewards are generally available through alternate means (and here I mean respecs, costume changes, temporary powers, and other little minor bonuses (like this one)), the costume pieces (and base items) cannot be acquired in any way besides Veteran Rewards.

I can earn costume changes by paying a bit of influence; I can buy a respec, or do a respec trial. If I want a temporary power, I can find the story arc that grants it and run it (and, thanks to Ouroboros, re-run it as necessary). If I want a little more prestige, I can play a little longer.

There is no way whatsoever for me to acquire Angel Wings save by waiting 15 months for them. That's where these bonuses fail. They aren't "little bonuses". They are exclusive items. There just isn't enough justification in my mind to give veterans exclusive items.

Their continued patronage is worth a little nod of thanks, I'll agree, but having things other cannot simply because they are veterans is not, in my opinion, a nod of thanks.


 

Posted

Then I should be able to do anything in the game without having to "earn" it. By earn i mean level. (I know that you have to learn to how play the game, but let's say you are a vet), You want a new character to play in a high level tf, you cannot, you are denied access to that particular part of the game because you haven't played long enough.

You can definitely get to play that particular part of the game, once you have played long enough.

I see the vet rewards the same way. I haven't played long enough to use it.

[bad analogy, but same basic line of logic]


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohloh View Post
I see the vet rewards the same way. I haven't played long enough to use it.

[bad analogy, but same basic line of logic]
Not really. Veteran Rewards are completely static. They are completely out of my control. They are earned only by having an active subscription.

If I want a 50 sooner, I can play more, or I can play harder - get bigger teams, fight bigger groups. There are hoops, but I can hop them at my pace. Like with the other rewards I have no complaint with, I can get them, I just have to do the work.

There is no "work" to be done to gain exclusive veteran rewards I do not already have.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan View Post
Because they don't pay me to play the game. I pay them.

This isn't work. This is play. This is fun.

Does DisneyLand have special rides that only long-time repeat customers can ride?
Does K-Mart have special goods only purchasable after you've shopped there ten times before?
Does McDonald's have special menu items only available after you've bought twenty Big Macs?

Games aren't jobs. Any analogies that use jobs as their basis are already off on the wrong foot.
Maybe not but many retailers do offer incentives to buy more:

Best Buy has Reward Zone
Discovery has a cash back program
MC, Visa and other Credit cards offer frequent flyer miles to redeem for airfares
etc.

Personally I enjoy the vet rewards and think it's a good idea, and also working very well


Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decorum View Post
He said inf, not prestige.

And probably not.
He did, my bad.

And yeah, I'm thinking "not so much".


Global name: @k26dp

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan View Post
The primary difference I see here is that while other Veteran Rewards are generally available through alternate means (and here I mean respecs, costume changes, temporary powers, and other little minor bonuses (like this one)), the costume pieces (and base items) cannot be acquired in any way besides Veteran Rewards.

I can earn costume changes by paying a bit of influence; I can buy a respec, or do a respec trial. If I want a temporary power, I can find the story arc that grants it and run it (and, thanks to Ouroboros, re-run it as necessary). If I want a little more prestige, I can play a little longer.

There is no way whatsoever for me to acquire Angel Wings save by waiting 15 months for them. That's where these bonuses fail. They aren't "little bonuses". They are exclusive items. There just isn't enough justification in my mind to give veterans exclusive items.

Their continued patronage is worth a little nod of thanks, I'll agree, but having things other cannot simply because they are veterans is not, in my opinion, a nod of thanks.
I see what you are saying, but not sure I agree. What would you call it if not a nod of thanks?


Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Constant_Motion View Post
I see what you are saying, but not sure I agree. What would you call it if not a nod of thanks?
Epeen enhancers?

Joking aside, I'd call them what I called them: exclusive items.

I'd categorise a "nod of thanks" as something that says "here, let me make things a little easier for you". The exclusive items, on the other hand, say "here, have something no one else can have". That's not a "nod of thanks", that's a "you're special/different/better".


 

Posted

A badge and 10% more prestige, for 75 months played. Worse vet reward than I thought it would be, and I was aiming low.

I know we won't ever get more vet reward costume pieces, or bonus powers like the Nemesis Staff, or nice stuff like that, because of all the complaining from the impatient, but we're down to rewards like 5% more from inspirations (virtually no gift at all), and 10% more prestige (when most of us 75ers have plenty of prestige by now, even for our personal bases).

I wonder what's next, 5% more travel speed? So 58 mph flying speed becomes 60 mph? I won't notice that either.

Vet rewards used to be visible indicators of veteran status. Now it's tiny stat modifiers. I suppose the 78 month vet reward will be 5% shorter log-off time.


Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan View Post
Not really. Veteran Rewards are completely static. They are completely out of my control. They are earned only by having an active subscription.

If I want a 50 sooner, I can play more, or I can play harder - get bigger teams, fight bigger groups. There are hoops, but I can hop them at my pace. Like with the other rewards I have no complaint with, I can get them, I just have to do the work.

There is no "work" to be done to gain exclusive veteran rewards I do not already have.
You'll get them just like every veteran, in due course. Completely fair.


Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle

 

Posted

Meh, Looks like just another *we don't want to offend the non-vets" Vet Reward again.


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