The Presence Pool needs parameters love
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-07-20 05:52 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
A while back I looked at adding Intimidate to my mind controller build to stack with Terrify. It works pretty well if you six-slot it. But that's a lot to ask and I've never been able to fit it into a build that I actually play anywhere other than the test server.
Invoke Panic and Provoke also need six slots to be effective. Provoke is so handy for my playstyle that I bite the bullet and take it. But I think to make this pool generally more appealing, you have to get some decent return on investment with less than six slots. So if I were going to improve the Presence Pool, I'd start with that. Make the powers decent with, say, 3 or 4 slots.
Your idea of changing Invoke Panic from a PBAoE to an AoE is exactly what that power needs.
So less slots needed and an AoE Invoke Panic would make me happy. Any other improvements I'd happily take, so long as they're balanced against the AT-specific fear powers.
Edit:
Oh, and a purple set for Fears please Devs.
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I would love to see the power pools reworked a bit. Presence is definitly a candidate for this because it currently only offers mediocre taunts/fear.
Given my thread about Fear Tanking, I would love to see this. Even if all they did was make the pool "good enough" to stack with fear powers from other dark/mind sets so you could fiddle out a concept that would be great.
Fix it up all you want, I just wish I could take the fear powers without having to take the taunt powers.
I mean, I want the fear powers to STOP people from attacking me, and in order to get it I have to take a power that DEMANDS they attack me. It seems like the first part of the pool was meant for Tanks/Scrappers, and the second part for squishies.
I wish the pool powers opened up like primary/secondary powers, unlocking at certain levels regardless if you have any of the previous powers. You could say that would mean people would skip the pre-reqs, but I'd just think that means there was something wrong with them to begin with. As an aside, I actually like a lot of the pre-reqs, and take the travel power ones (Hover/Combat Jumping) even though I don't need to with my Vet Reward. But some of them could either use some help, or are powers I simply don't want but have to take in order to get the one I do want.
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yeah. that's kind of by design.|
Originally Posted by Peacemoon
I would love to see the power pools reworked a bit. Presence is definitly a candidate for this because it currently only offers mediocre taunts/fear.
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These are POOL POWERS
Let me spell this out: THEY ARE INTENTIONALLY WEAKER THAN PRIMARY AND SECONDARY POWERS IN NATIVE POWER SETS.
There is nothing wrong with the values on the pool powers, they do not need to be reviewed, and they do not need to be changed.
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Um, you do realize it's possible for the powers to be too much weaker than primary or secondary sets, right? So it would be fine if Invoke Panic cost 33 endurance for a 5 second magnitude 2 fear as long as it's weaker than Fearsome Stare?|
Originally Posted by je_saist
yeah. that's kind of by design.
These are POOL POWERS Let me spell this out: THEY ARE INTENTIONALLY WEAKER THAN PRIMARY AND SECONDARY POWERS IN NATIVE POWER SETS. There is nothing wrong with the values on the pool powers, they do not need to be reviewed, and they do not need to be changed. |
Actually, a power can be too weak to be balanced, regardless of whether it's a Primary, Secondary or Pool power. If the costs of a power are too high for what it does then it needs to be adjusted. No one was suggesting that "POOL POWERS" should be equal to or stronger than "PRIMARY AND SECONDARY POWERS", but, like "PRIMARY AND SECONDARY POWERS", it is possible for powers, even pool powers, to be too weak for what they cost. Capisce?
On what do you base your assertion that all pool powers are perfect as is? Have you looked at the costs and effects of the powers? Do you even know what percentage of primary or secondary power effectiveness a pool power should have? Can you justify your statement with anything other than the use of bolding and "because I said so"?
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And since they are selected from the same pool of choices as those primary and secondary powers, this was a poor design choice. Bad idea then, still bad idea now. The fact that it's intentional does not mean it is good.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
yeah. that's kind of by design.
These are POOL POWERS Let me spell this out: THEY ARE INTENTIONALLY WEAKER THAN PRIMARY AND SECONDARY POWERS IN NATIVE POWER SETS. |
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If "by design" equals "correct and good" then there's never any point in making suggestions.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
by design
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I'd start with giving Challenge and Provoke a minor range debuff. Perhaps just as good as the primary and secondary taunt range debuffs. After all, Challenge and Provoke already have to suffer through accuracy slotting and a to-hit check. It'd make my storm tanker happy, that's for sure.
I don't see any reason why Intimidate can't be mag 3. Mag 2 single target mez effects -- not even a hard mez, even -- are simply out of place in this game. Better suited for trinity games where anything other than heals, tanking, or DPS is expected to suck. Instead, give it Petrifying Gaze's numbers (30s->16s recharge, 7x->8x duration, mag 2->3, drop the chance of extra mag), except fear instead of hold, 25% higher end cost than PG (13->9.75 end), and keep the shorter range (60'). Swapping fear for hold on what is considered, by many, to be the worst non-controller hold in the game, should make for a well balanced pool power.
Invoke Panic is fine as a mag 2 PBAoE mez. We can model it off the other mag 2 PBAoE mez (Thunder Clap), giving it roughly the same duration and recharge. It already has the same low accuracy as Thunder Clap, just give it Thunder Clap's duration (7x->10x) and recharge (60s->45s). It'll still be a weaker power on account of fear being not as good as stun, 25% higher end cost than TC (22.75->13 end), and keeping its much smaller radius (15'), and lower target cap (10). Swapping fear for stun on what is considered, by many, to be the worst non-controller AoE stun in the game, should make for a well balanced pool power.
Now some readers may look at the differences and immediately think there's no way such large buffs to powers could be balanced. But remember, we're polishing turds here. Fear is soft control, at best. It'll take an awful lot of polishing for these powers to become too good, and I don't think I've hit that point.
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Most of the time you're a jerk who makes good points and I rather enjoy watching you from a distance like a dangerous animal... but in this case you're just being a jerk. |
Originally Posted by je_saist
yeah. that's kind of by design.
These are POOL POWERS Let me spell this out: THEY ARE INTENTIONALLY WEAKER THAN PRIMARY AND SECONDARY POWERS IN NATIVE POWER SETS. There is nothing wrong with the values on the pool powers, they do not need to be reviewed, and they do not need to be changed. |
What I want out of pool powers is to feel like whatever choice I make is sacrificing something else. At this point in the game and for as long as I can remember the pools that I take on non concept characters are pretty straightforward: fitness, speed, and one of the travel pools. None of the others do much for me except in very specific circumstances: An MM with the presence taunt, /SR scrapper with Aid Self, the occasional melee character with fighting. When I'm building a character there is rarely any deliberation about which pools to take.
Presence and concealment are the red headed stepchildren of the pool powers. Presence could be adjusted to make it more enticing while still keeping it INTENTIONALLY WEAKER THAN PRIMARY AND SECONDARY POWERS IN NATIVE POWER SETS. Concealment could be fixed by making the fourth power summon a pony or something.
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If that pony has its own taunt and taunts 24/7 then this is a great idea!
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Originally Posted by Chocolate_Bacon
Concealment could be fixed by making the fourth power summon a pony or something.
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Just give use the same phase that the illusionists use. In otherwords, I can hit you, you cant hit me.|
Originally Posted by Chocolate_Bacon
Concealment could be fixed by making the fourth power summon a pony or something.
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And turn on the pvp phasing rules. If you phase also we can both hit each other.
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Presence, in my opinion, definitely needs looking at. Especially since, also in my opinion, it's the most useless power pool in the game. Period. Just about everyone who wants to taunt already has superior taunting capabilities. Just about everyone who wants a fear either has superior options or doesn't want to waste picks on useless taunt powers. And if you just want Invoke Panic, then that's two powers you don't want to get it.
I'm not sure what direction the pool needs to be taken to make it ideal. I just no -range on the taunts would be a no-go since I doubt ranged-toons having access to ranged -range debuffs would be considered balanced.
I use Provoke all the time these dayas.
The fears...well, I toyed with them with simply SO back in the day, on my DM/Inv Scrapper, to consider stacking fears, but they were just too costly and too underwhelming to be worth it. I'd love to see their endurance costs dropped a bit, to be more in line with their power level.
As for duration? That's a tough call, they're relatively short, but still in the 'useful' range, the main problematic factor I find with that pool is the endurance costs.
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What if the restrictions on acquiring the powers in the Presence Pool were relaxed? It would break the 6/14/20 and 1-1-2-3 "rules" for Pool powers ... but given how contradictory the Presence Pool is in "needing" a Taunt in order to use Fear, would that really be a bad thing?
Challenge ... requires Level 6.
Provoke ... requires Level 14 and Challenge power.
Intimidate ... requires Level 6.
Invoke Panic ... requires Level 14 and Intimidate power.
Would such a change, for the Presence Pool only, be a horribly bad thing? Do you see where I'm going with this?
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As much as I like that change, I don't see it flying because you're putting Provoke at level 14 and requiring a power to get, something that'd screw up everyone who has Provoke but not Challenge or has both before level 14.
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Agreed on all counts (starting with the first statement).
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Originally Posted by Chocolate_Bacon
Most of the time you're a jerk who makes good points and I rather enjoy watching you from a distance like a dangerous animal... but in this case you're just being a jerk.
What I want out of pool powers is to feel like whatever choice I make is sacrificing something else. At this point in the game and for as long as I can remember the pools that I take on non concept characters are pretty straightforward: fitness, speed, and one of the travel pools. None of the others do much for me except in very specific circumstances: An MM with the presence taunt, /SR scrapper with Aid Self, the occasional melee character with fighting. When I'm building a character there is rarely any deliberation about which pools to take. Presence and concealment are the red headed stepchildren of the pool powers. Presence could be adjusted to make it more enticing while still keeping it INTENTIONALLY WEAKER THAN PRIMARY AND SECONDARY POWERS IN NATIVE POWER SETS. Concealment could be fixed by making the fourth power summon a pony or something. |
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It'd make the design simpler to just take Challenge, wad it up into a ball, and throw it in the trash.|
Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix
As much as I like that change, I don't see it flying because you're putting Provoke at level 14 and requiring a power to get, something that'd screw up everyone who has Provoke but not Challenge or has both before level 14.
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What can fill the hole? Hello, weaker pool power version of Placate. So very nice to meet ya.
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This is exactly my thought on how to fix the pool.|
Originally Posted by Ossuary
Fix it up all you want, I just wish I could take the fear powers without having to take the taunt powers.
.... |
Tier One should contain : Single Target Taunt, Single Target Fear
Tier Two should contain : AoE Taunt, AoE Fear
Tier Three : Something new
This way you can take the taunt(s) if that is all you are seeking, or... take the fear powers, but not get railroaded into taking a power you have no use for.
Ideas for a new tier three?
***Thinking out loud; a weakened version of Practiced Brawler for us squishies***
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Very workable Idea Rigel !|
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
It'd make the design simpler to just take Challenge, wad it up into a ball, and throw it in the trash.
What can fill the hole? Hello, weaker pool power version of Placate. So very nice to meet ya. |
Tier 1 : Placate Version, AoE Taunt
Tier 2 : Single Target Fear
Tier 3 : AoE Fear
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Reduce end costs and its fixed.
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Meh, not a fan. The Placate effect alone is nothing special, and is in fact often detrimental on a team. What makes the [Placate] power good is that it puts you back into the Hidden state so you can crit again. But only 3 ATs would benefit from Hidden.|
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
It'd make the design simpler to just take Challenge, wad it up into a ball, and throw it in the trash.
What can fill the hole? Hello, weaker pool power version of Placate. So very nice to meet ya. |
... actually the Hidden state is accomplished by setting the player's meter to 100%; I believe the same meter is used for Hidden, Fury, and Domination (and the old version of Defiance). So a Brute using Stalker's Placate would get 100% Fury, instantly, and a Dominator would fill their domination bar. So a pool power Placate which set you back in Hidden state would help 3 ATs as expected, and 2 more ATs in an unexpectedly broken fashion.
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Just bumping...
Presence needs love.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
yeah. that's kind of by design.
These are POOL POWERS Let me spell this out: THEY ARE INTENTIONALLY WEAKER THAN PRIMARY AND SECONDARY POWERS IN NATIVE POWER SETS. There is nothing wrong with the values on the pool powers, they do not need to be reviewed, and they do not need to be changed. |
(On Track) Presence is going on my Mind/thorn Dom, I have made it so I at least will be some help from the set, but if the devs are planning something in the near future for improvement, then yay for me.
I'd love to see this Pool adjusted somehow. In particular the Endurance costs and perhaps not having to take a Taunt power to get to the Fear powers.. but the End/Duration perhaps would be enough to make the set more appealing. Not having to 6 slot them and only needing 3-4 slots to make the most out of these powers would be ideal.
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The Presence Pool
Far back in the mists of ancient time ... Presence was ... fearsome. Today, it's just ... meh.
Endurance cost on the Fear powers is way too high, when neither Challenge nor Provoke have any Endurance cost at all.
Recharge times on the Fear powers are 6-10x as long as the Taunts in the Pool!
Duration times on the Fear powers are way too short at under 10.5 seconds.
Mag 2 Fear on both of the Fear powers and only a slight chance of +1 Mag, and ONLY Domination can do anything about that.
There are NO secondary debuff effects in the Fear powers, not even a tossed salad of "chance to" secondary debuffs.
For a "leaky hold" like what Fear has become in the game ... this is just wimptacular. Even for primary/secondary choices which contain Fear powers within them, there is remarkably little reason to pick up (let alone use!) the Presence Pool to augment any Fear effects. The return on investment is simply too low.
I'm reasonably certain that if Castle (or one of his many Pawns) were to go datamining to see how many characters are in play using either or both of the Fear powers in the Presence Pool, the results would come back indicating a pretty clear pattern supporting the notion that the Fear powers underperform.
So ... what to do about Intimidate (Single Target, Ranged Fear) and Invoke Panic (10 Targets, PBAoE Fear)? No point in lodging a complaint if you're not going to offer a solution to the problem you've identified, right?
Adjustment to existing spreadsheet values shown in italics.
Intimidate
Power Type: Click
Accuracy: 1.00
Attack Type(s): Ranged_Attack, Psionic_Attack
Cast Time: 1.67s
Effect Area: Character
End Cost: 9.75
Auto-Hit: None
Level Available: 14
Max Targets: 0
Notify Mobs: Always
Range: 60 ft
Recharge Time: 30s
Target: Foe
Line of Sight: True
Variable: False
Effects:
Effect does not stack from same caster.
Suppressed when Mezzed.
Ignores Enhancement & Buffs
Suppressed when Mezzed.
Invoke Panic
Power Type: Click
Accuracy: 0.8
Attack Type(s): AOE_Attack, Psionic_Attack
Cast Time: 1.97s
Effect Area: Sphere
End Cost: 17
Auto-Hit: None
Level Available: 20
Max Targets: 10
Notify Mobs: Always
Radius: 15 ft
Recharge Time: 30s
Target: Foe
Line of Sight: True
Variable: False
Effects:
Effect does not stack from same caster.
Suppressed when Mezzed.
Ignores Enhancement & Buffs
Suppressed when Mezzed.
Heck, while we're at it ... why don't we add ...
- 20% Enhancement(Taunt) to Self for 10 seconds
... to Challenge and Provoke in the Presence Pool? Ought to be a fairly straightforward simple addition to the database, right?Effect does not stack from same caster.
By setting up the respective Presence Pool powers to enhance Taunt and Terrorize, you allow the Presence Pool powers to at least offer some benefit not only to each other but also to any primary and secondary powers which might also have these properties.
Castle ... should you choose to accept my recommendation(s) here, I think you'll find that people who previously couldn't be bothered to even give the Presence Pool the time of day might be tempted to give it a second look ... and not just for a selectively limited collection of primary/secondary combinations. Furthermore, should you choose to implement my recommendation(s) here, it should probably take you (or better yet, one of your Pawns) no more than 10 minutes of database coding time to make the edits.
Think about it ...