Question about in game economy
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-07-18 22:52 in The Market and Inventions
Not meaning to expand this discussion too much, but I wonder how much "dead inf" there is floating around the game...
I have tens to hundreds of millions on characters that isn't actually working for me, more out of laziness than anything else, to be sure. Once you have a toon kitted out, the only thing left is to kit another toon out and another...since you're never alone in any situation, how many players are sitting on gobs of inf and just not using it? When PvPIOs went live, I made an effort to accumulate a fund to grab some early. Likewise, if the Incarnate system offers tradeable or saleable goods, I expect inf to be drained out of that system in that capacity.
The game "needs" a few inf sinks. Crafting items drains away items and so does selling them via the auction houses, inspiration purchases and so on...but a voluntary inf sink, perhaps inf to Merits would be nice and might do something to "redress" the economy, if it needs such at all.
The Devs may have been onto something with the crafting cost of purples, don't they cost half a million each or somesuch? Maybe the Incarnate IOs...if there are any, will cost a million each to craft...or more! 
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
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I took that to mean it was the BM due to the merger.
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Originally Posted by Neuronia
"The other is not quite such common knowledge. Out of nowhere, Wentworths has gained access to new suppliers, but all suspicions and investigations have been stymied by the immaculate paperwork of their new partners. Likewise, the Black Market has suddenly seen a rise in activity, though no one has looked too closely at the why so long as the goods are solid. For now, it remains a mystery."
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I'm going to address je_saist quickly and then go to the OP.
je_saist said:
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To Killer Krock:
First, welcome to the forums!
Second, sorry if we seem a little hostile. We see similar questions a LOT, although I have to say yours is polite and has a lot less subtext than most of them. One guy this last weekend was offering to kill people in Real Life. In the desert. For disagreeing with him.
Third, the specifics of your post. I had a co-worker who used to say (in an Argentine accent that I cannot replicate in print) "What is the question behind the question? "
There are several possible "Questions behind the question" and people often don't know which one they mean.
Some people think the question is "How do I get the nice stuff?" and what they really mean is "What horrible cruel methods do you people have for getting more stuff than me?"
Some people think the question is "What horrible cruel methods, etc?" and in fact they really mean "How do I get the nice stuff?"
Some people think the question [statement, really] is "I don't have nice stuff and it's YOUR FAULT". And, really, what they mean is "I don't have nice stuff, I don't know how to get nice stuff, and I don't want to learn."
One handy way of figuring out the question: If I gave you a billion inf, and next week I gave you another billion inf: Would you still be seriously concerned about the prices of IO's?
For myself? I think I have one PVP IO and zero purples slotted, across all my characters. I play hard, I beat the hell out of the [computer-controlled] opposition, and I do it with [relatively] cheap builds.
I _also_ make a lot of profit on the markets, and I do so with the explicit goal of destroying inf (turning it into Prestige mostly) to fight inflation.
Taking myself as an example, you could conclude that expensive builds aren't all that important to enjoyment, and you could also conclude that you don't need to justify marketeering and profit. It's ok to be making money even if you aren't, for instance, building schools and saving lives with it.
So what is the question behind the question? Do you want to know the details of inflation, what causes it, what fixes it and what the ebil marketeers think about it? Do you want to know how to get nice stuff for yourself? Do you want to know how to make a kick-tail bargain build? Do you just want to blow off steam?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
I don't see much inflation in the markets, other than purples ad PvP recipes. Since the AE boon has died I have noticed that rare salvage has gone up a couple of mil each. As in one rare salvage was, let's say for example 1 million inf. and is now like 3 mil. Less people are using the AE for salvage ergo, supply is down, price went up.
It's been a while since I've looked at Hami-O's. (I should check that...)
The bring culprit right now is Kinetic Combat. Since the Blessing of the Zephyr nerf, the demand for went up, in a big way.
But you can always get by with less than purples, even rares. It's how you view building your toons. If you need to have the absolute best, you need to do more then simply play. And that is the only thing holding you back.
I don't see the devs "fixing" the drop rates on purples. It would only benefit the farmers. (Not that I got anything you farmers.) I have been for it in the past, practically irately vocal about it, near rage quit pist. It's a luxury, that honestly IMO you don't need.
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You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
abuses the market
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Other than the Devs finally caving into the idea of a market merger? I wouldn't hold my breath. |
Originally Posted by Killer_Krock
Are there any plans, any possible solutions to the spinning out of control in game economy? Am I alone in thinking the markets and economy in the game need a fix? Maybe it is just my perception, but the price on items some of us want goes up and up like a rocket putting some things out of reach, seemingly forever. My veteran characters have several hundred million influence and infamy, and seem dirt poor. I can't play 10 hours a day to get the influ and merits I would need to build the character I would like, and I do not wish to be part of the problem, by purchasing influ from the web sites that sell "in game money" for real money. It appears to me the inevitable outcome is that one day I will log in, and everything in the market will cost the max (2 billion?). Is there any way to stop it? Please help. (fyi..I love the game that is why I feel so strongly about this)
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I still like the idea of PvP merits since PvP tends to require the high-end builds in order for players to be competitive; players would gain merits for personal kills team kills and wins in arena matches. Allow players to designate one of their builds as PvP so that they are able purchase enhancement with PvP merits and can only use that build in arena and zones.
quite a few disagree with the proposal however and hell would have to freeze over for the devs to ever consider such a system.
Is it imperfect? sure. Is it exploitable? Definitely. But it would also be independent from the market and the rest of the game so exploitation of the system would be irrelevant; unless your argument is that the pvp merit system wouldn't reward skill..my counter to that argument would of course be, "Shut the f- up."
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Increased drop rates on Purples would benefit everyone who wants Purples. Sure, farmers would see a benefit as they would have more product to sell (or slot), but the increased supply would help anyone else who wanted it. And it's certainly not just farmers who obtain Purples, but anyone who fights high-level foes.|
Originally Posted by ChaosAngelGeno
I don't see the devs "fixing" the drop rates on purples. It would only benefit the farmers. (Not that I got anything you farmers.) I have been for it in the past, practically irately vocal about it, near rage quit pist. It's a luxury, that honestly IMO you don't need.
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Personally, I don't see drop rates increasing on Purples anytime soon, and certainly not increasing by a very large amount.
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I'm used to him being wrong.
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Originally Posted by macskull
You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.
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Broken? Yes.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
The developers have indicated that they view some of the prices on the markets to be broken, and that trading items off the market for more than the personal influence influence limit is an abuse of the system. So yes, the developers are aware that there is an issue.
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Abuse of the system? You made that up.
Also, the only items that hit the influence cap are PvP IO's which are pretty much irrelevant to the discussion. It is NOT a widespread problem.
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The Mentor Project
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You're a ******* superhero, Fulmens. I mean it. A one-man's anarchist's soup kitchen.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
I _also_ make a lot of profit on the markets, and I do so with the explicit goal of destroying inf (turning it into Prestige mostly) to fight inflation.
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I think the developers, goal should be that the casual player is able to play, but that the hard core players are rewarded with "something" for their hard work. The key is that the "something" is, on the one hand, good enough to satisfy the hard core players, while on the other hand, the "something" can't be so essential that casual players are left out of something that they really need in order to play task forces and raids, etc.
If you agree with that premise, then the question becomes whether there are things in the game that are really necessary in order to participate in raids and task forces, but are too expensive for the casual gamer? I can't think of any.
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I agree. IOs make things easier but all of the core content up to and including things like Hamidon Raids and MoSTFs were done before IOs were a glint in a programmer's eye.
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Originally Posted by Void Spirit
If you agree with that premise, then the question becomes whether there are things in the game that are really necessary in order to participate in raids and task forces, but are too expensive for the casual gamer? I can't think of any.
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I copy/pasted this from somewhere else. If you think items are "too difficult" to obtain or "too expensive" to purchase you should ask for increased drop rates and/or reduced merit prices.
1. The market fee is a significant Inf sink.
2. Prices stabilize around a balance point where inf created is roughly equivalent to inf destroyed.
3. This stabilization point often shifts upwards due to changes in the game:
- more players being level 50
- easier to reach level 50 (patrol XP, XP curve, more experienced playerbase, difficulty settings)
- double Inf drops for level 50s
- generic recipes and other things being sold to venders increases Inf earned
- mission architect where most players receive more Inf than items
In general, purple prices have plummeted drastically. Prices for salvage have stayed mostly the same. Pool C prices, in general, have risen slightly. However, there are many examples of significant drops and significant increases in prices.
I recorded roughly 100 purple recipe sales redside on July 9th at midnight. The sales totalled 11,115,000,000. One point one (1.1) billion Inf was removed from the game, redside, from purple recipes alone yesterday. Bionic_Flea's LGTF today, to use as an example, produced him 7M Inf in 2 hours. Purple recipes alone, redside, today, destroyed the equivalent of a little more than the Inf earned by 300 players doing what Bionic_Flea just did.
Players, likely, do not have the data collection capabilities to calculate how much players earn and how much they destroy. However, players do KNOW that there is a balance point where Inf destroyed is roughly equivalent to Inf created. In other words: prices cannot rise above a certain point because players cannot afford those prices. In yet other words: the same volume of luck charms cannot be sold today at a price of 200,000,000 Inf because players can't make that much Inf. Some prices are out of reach of players. If such a scenario did exist more Inf would be destroyed than created.
Prices generally rise mostly because the Devs keep creating systems that allow players to produce more Inf than they did before. The point of balance keeps being shift. If such systems were not created (which none have been for the past several months) prices remain relatively stable. An example of relative stability is the past 3 months for Pool A, B, C recipes, enhancements and invention salvage. Will the Incarnate System and Going Rogue allow players to produce more Inf than before? If yes then prices will rise.
If the Devs wish to reduce the amount of Inf in the system then they should reduce the amount of Inf being created. The amount of Inf earned by level 50s for defeating the same foes (defeating 100 standard even con minions) is more than double the Inf level 49s earn.
Perhaps the picture above should look more like a gentle slope than a soaring skyscraper.
it's an L curve that functions just like the real world!!! oh noes we are doomed!
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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And disappearing rather than responding.
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Originally Posted by MunkiLord
I'm used to him being wrong.
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I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
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I wondered where this thread went.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
There is also a fundamental problem with influence sinks. Unless they are based on a neutral pricing source, they punish all players. The reason why base enhancements work as an influence sink is because you can buy base enhancements for a vendor for a set cost. You don't have to pay over that cost, but you can pay under that cost on the market.
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That's why I suggested a sliding scale based on sell price.
Pre-market we had expiring enhancements that cost more each time. The tailor fees are scaled based on the player's level. Both of these assume that the player will have more and more inf at the higher levels and therefore try to siphon more of that off. The thing is though this still left a lot of players with a lot of inf on their 50s but since there was nothing to spend it on except another costume makeover, it wasn't an issue.
The problem is there is way more inf coming into the game that being siphoned off for a market system (economic term) to properly work without outrageous inflation bordering on Zimbabwe proportion (a have a 100 Billion Dollar bill from Zimbabwe from late 2008, US value then, $20.
The old game inf sinks are virtually gone. Tailors are essentially free if your characters have been around long enough and then we got the day job coupons and vet rewards. Common IOs eliminate the constant restocking of enhancements every few levels once you get to, well for me, level 27. I don't know anyone who uses the inf to prestige converter. And the market's 10% off the top fee barely scratches the surface. And while crafting can take what was once a nice chunk of change, it too isn't an appreciable inf sink any longer.
The fundamental problem is the amount of inf earned over the time it takes to get a desirable recipe drop, and not necessarily desirable for you but to the player population. This ratio of inf earned over the time it took for those desirable recipes to drop sort of sets a minimum value for those recipes.
Now since this is the only MMO I've played in this decade I'm probably talking out of my hat here but isn't it true that as long as you as willing to raid enough or wait your turn at some fixed encounter that you will eventually get all the top gear? While in our system you may never see a particular recipe drop on you no matter how long you bash critters due to the size of the pool, the drop rate and a finicky random number generator. Therefore the market is almost the only place any player will see one of these and the result of them trying to get it on their own means they are sitting on what would have been an outrageous amount of inf pre-market.
Right now there is an enormous amount of inf in game and it's growing rapidly everyday. The older methods of siphoning off isn't effective anymore and anyone who took Economics I knows that too little supply, too high of a demand and oodles of cash means ramped inflation. And it's in a positive feedback loop to boot.
You can't alter the inf amounts per critter without penalizing new players. That leaves either new inf sinks or new methods to increase supply without significantly increase the money supply. Maybe a method to exchange inf into merits for recipe rolls. Don't make it too unfavorable, unlike the prestige conversion rate. This will both suck inf out of the system while improving supply.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
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WoW model- very likely to get loot, but as soon as a new tier of content comes out your old gear is outdated, so you can never have the best gear. When the next expansion comes out the epics from raiding being done today will be replaced by quest rewards from the first quests, and then gear has to be gotten all over again. Basically gear isn't too hard to get, but has to be replaced almost constantly if you want to keep up. RNG can still hit pretty hard, considering with raid drops most items are wanted by multiple people. So it's not just getting something to drop, it's getting stuff to drop enough, and the right drops.|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Now since this is the only MMO I've played in this decade I'm probably talking out of my hat here but isn't it true that as long as you as willing to raid enough or wait your turn at some fixed encounter that you will eventually get all the top gear? While in our system you may never see a particular recipe drop on you no matter how long you bash critters due to the size of the pool, the drop rate and a finicky random number generator. Therefore the market is almost the only place any player will see one of these and the result of them trying to get it on their own means they are sitting on what would have been an outrageous amount of inf pre-market.
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Ragnarok Online- gear drops are obscenely obscenely rare and anyone casual isn't gonna get the good stuff. One of the best drops were cards, and they had a drop rate of 1/10,000. Soloing most enemies had to be fought 1 on 1, not to mention they had a habit of adding undesireable mobs to maps that had things people actually wanted to fight (a lot of enemies had drops that were more or less worthless). Also had enemies with valuable drops that could only be fought effectively teamed, and boss type enemies that could only be killed something like every hour. No instanced maps.
Culex's resistance guide
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... the old game inf sinks were never really all that. (Although I did know three people who went broke on costume changes, it didn't really last. ) | The old game inf sinks are virtually gone. Tailors are essentially free if your characters have been around long enough and then we got the day job coupons and vet rewards. Common IOs eliminate the constant restocking of enhancements every few levels once you get to, well for me, level 27. I don't know anyone who uses the inf to prestige converter. And the market's 10% off the top fee barely scratches the surface. And while crafting can take what was once a nice chunk of change, it too isn't an appreciable inf sink any longer. |
And the market 10% does get rid of SOME of the incoming inf. I tried to calculate that here and came up with, pretty much, "1/3 to 1/5 of what you make farming is new inf." I don't really trust my analysis, though.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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I'm going to weigh in on this point because I disagree with this concept that supply and demand is driving up costs.|
Originally Posted by Diggis
I've highlighted the important bit there... it's important for 2 reasons.
1. It's a want, not a need. You can play the game without it and have just as much fun. 2. You want it, dave over there wants it, steve on Union wants it, heck, everyone wants it but there is limited supply. So prices go up as demand goes up and supply drops. The easiest way to combat it would be to increase supply, but the point is some stuff is MEANT to be rare. Mean I know, but so's life. |
While there is a limited supply, demand is easily 10x what it should be. And that's simply because any single player can have dozens of characters across nearly a dozen servers each with at least a dozen bid slots that can stack nearly a dozen high.
So ONE PERSON can place hundreds of bids for a single item, buy ALL of them and then list for whatever they want. I'm not saying that's easy or even fun, but it is possible and it is being done. I wouldn't call that 'demand'. It's control.
There a plenty of examples of salvage for which there are hundreds of them in stock and there are ZERO bids, yet the minimum price is thousands of inf. There's no way you can convince me that there are 1000 sellers out there all wanting at least 10,000 infamy for an alchemical gold. No, instead there are more like 10 sellers with 100 alchemical golds each that control that market and buy up any of the 'under priced' supply with the dozens of standing orders they have placed.
The problem is that any single player has access to way too many bid slots. Stacks of 10 are too many. I'd start there, cutting that number in half, to begin to curb the inflation. I'd also make it so replaced IOs can be resold. And I'd even make the crafting tables allow you to dismantle an IO to get back the salvage and recipe.
Please buff Ice Control.
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You realize you just lost any credibility right there....really...you did...right there. Go back and reread that until you figure out why|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
I'm going to weigh in on this point because I disagree with this concept that supply and demand is driving up costs.
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Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
There a plenty of examples of salvage for which there are hundreds of them in stock and there are ZERO bids, yet the minimum price is thousands of inf. There's no way you can convince me that there are 1000 sellers out there all wanting at least 10,000 infamy for an alchemical gold. No, instead there are more like 10 sellers with 100 alchemical golds each that control that market and buy up any of the 'under priced' supply with the dozens of standing orders they have placed.
The problem is that any single player has access to way too many bid slots. Stacks of 10 are too many. I'd start there, cutting that number in half, to begin to curb the inflation. |
Uggh dude, just uggh.
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The number of bids on an item is not "demand" in the economic sense, any more than the number of items for sale is the "supply".|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
I'm going to weigh in on this point because I disagree with this concept that supply and demand is driving up costs.
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Supply and demand in economic terms are measures of rates. Supply is the rate at which item appear on the market, and demand are the rate at which people want to remove things from the market.
People who do that what you're describing are commonly referred to as "flippers". The point of flipping a good is to can relist an item on the market at a higher than they paid for it. In other words, they put the item back, meaning that they have a pretty much null impact on both demand and supply.
The game's market prices are volatile around the theoretical supply/demand equilibrium point, because, among other things (and unlike the real world producers) people won't lose their shirts underpricing something they want to sell. Flippers set the floor on that price volatility.
The price at which you can sell something is not unlimited. Even if I have a PvP +3% defense IO, if I ask for 50B inf for it today (off market, obviously), buyers are going to think...
a) Screw that, other people will sell me one for way less AND
b) Screw that, I could outfit like 5 other characters in what's otherwise the most expensive enhancements imaginable for the price of that one piece
Sure, some insane-o "buy it nao!@" type might come along and pay me that, but how long am I willing to wait on that gamble? If I want to reliably earn money, I won't try to sell my item for tons more than everyone else*.
So there's always a price floor set by other bidders (including flippers, who set a sustained floor) and a price ceiling set by the aggregate buyer's market.
The theoretical supply & demand curve intersection should be somewhere between those to price brackets.
A flipper does increase the lowest price at which a savvy buyer might be able to get an item. They don't increase the supply/demand equilibrium price.
* You can usually safely raise your sale price if there are a lot of people bidding on something, none for sale, and an active sale history. This is an indicator that the historic prices are below the equilibrium price, and could probably be raised.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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So, what's doing it then?|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
I'm going to weigh in on this point because I disagree with this concept that supply and demand is driving up costs.
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Magic Ponies?
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| So ONE PERSON can place hundreds of bids for a single item, buy ALL of them and then list for whatever they want. |
None of that has any influence at all on the market for their chosen good. People either want the thing or they don't, and they're either willing to pay a lot for it or they're not.
I don't know why so many people attribute the observable workings of well documented market forces to black magic practiced by hoodoo specialists with chicken bone necklaces, but I wish y'all would cut it out.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Frogfather, that's one of the most patronising replies I've ever seen, it is partially correct, but not entirely.
Supply and demand does work in this game, but not quite in the same way as in the real world as the in game economy has some constraints/freedoms that real economies don't have and vice versa.
As an example, while loss leaders exist, you don't get many people dumping stuff on real world markets at ridiculous prices to get badges, and there is not very often a fixed price option to sell stuff the market says should be cheaper (vendors). For something that works the other way, if my business is doing well, I can't get a bigger shop, my number of market slots is restricted in game.
Flippers make the in game economy more like the real world economy.
In the earlyish period of the market, I used to get to level 6, and place my (ridiculous lowball) bids for a load of unique IOs. By the time I hit level 32 2 or 3 weeks later and wanted to slot them, I'd bought most of them (I never paid more than 500K and rarely more than 200K for a steadfast res/def for example, a friend got all 3 of the big healing uniques for like 10M total). If you want a nice brand new car and only want to pay $100, you're likely to be SoL in real life, but before the flippers arrived, you could get that sort of bargain in game if you had a modicum of patience.
A large part of the inflation and supply shortage has come with AE. That has distorted the drops significantly, and particularly the level of the recipes/enhs that turn up. Also it has decreased the amount of rare salvage that hits the market, as if you're trying to make cash then bronze rolling is better than rare salvage. It's much worse in the days of exploits when toons are going 1-50 very rapidly and not generating much stuff, but then wanting full IO builds.
Now here's a thought for an influence sink, what if you could buy additional market slots for say 5-10M x (the number you've already purchased +1). Would this be a useful influence sink as I suspect some of the serious marketeers would pay up for some of these, and it might encourage them to list some slightly more marginal stuff. I know I'd love to have a couple of slots more on some of my toons.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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As Frogfather has said, that's a terrible example- it's terrible in so many ways that it almost has to be a troll. But, y'know, bait is tasty so here I go. |
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
I'm going to weigh in on this point because I disagree with this concept that supply and demand is driving up costs.
While there is a limited supply, demand is easily 10x what it should be. And that's simply because any single player can have dozens of characters across nearly a dozen servers each with at least a dozen bid slots that can stack nearly a dozen high. So ONE PERSON can place hundreds of bids for a single item, buy ALL of them and then list for whatever they want. I'm not saying that's easy or even fun, but it is possible and it is being done. I wouldn't call that 'demand'. It's control. There a plenty of examples of salvage for which there are hundreds of them in stock and there are ZERO bids, yet the minimum price is thousands of inf. There's no way you can convince me that there are 1000 sellers out there all wanting at least 10,000 infamy for an alchemical gold. No, instead there are more like 10 sellers with 100 alchemical golds each that control that market and buy up any of the 'under priced' supply with the dozens of standing orders they have placed. |
1) There are an estimated 50,000+ people playing the game. Is it entirely unreasonable that 2% of them could have an Alchemical Gold for sale at any given time? I've probably put one or two up for sale this week.
2) I actually [with some help from the other Luck Charmers] controlled the market in Luck Charms for a little while. At that point there were, if I remember correctly, about 500 LC's a weekday moving through Wentworth's- two or three times that on a weekend. And Luck Charms are a low-volume item, because there aren't that many naturally generated. They drop half as much from 20 to 25 and not at all beyond that. If you do Synapse or Sister Psyche you will get very little salvage during those levels, and a lot of that will be from tech-only droppers. In short, "controlling" an item of salvage is a LOT of work. It's easier if you don't want to make a profit, of course, but it's still a lot of work.
3) There's very little money in it. I can find a recipe for 5 million, salvage for 3 million, craft and sell for 35 million. I think that was, umm, some sort of level 40 Decimation? Anyway, the profit on that ends up being about 22 million inf. If I was buying Alchemical Gold at ELEVEN INF and selling for 10,000 (9,000 of which I keep) I'd have to flip over two THOUSAND Alch Gold to make the equivalent of one mid-to-low-end recipe. That's two hundred stacks bought, two hundred stacks sold. If it takes you five seconds to flip a stack [which is aggressive- I timed myself once and it took me longer than that] you're talking about one thousand seconds, almost 20 minutes of grinding tedious work.
4) There's nothing that stops YOU from seeing THEIR standing orders and buying for one inf more. After all, if it's a standing order than it's going to be picking up around half the sales, so there's very likely one in the last five.
5) There's ALSO nothing that stops you from playing an AE mission and buying your own damn Alchemical Gold with tickets.
So ... am I saying that there's nobody flipping salvage at a profit? I am not. I'm saying that people profit off salvage BECAUSE THERE'S SO MUCH INF OUT THERE. I myself, when I'm crafting that 35,000,000 inf IO, will tend to bid like this on common salvage:
5,908
55,908
155,908
If I don't get it at 155,908 I go back down to 55K and let it sit while I buy the rest of the stuff.
Cause, you know, I am making 22 million, I can afford to give someone half a percent to save myself a couple minutes.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
There may be a dissonance here, that a player sees 100,000,000 as a price and goes: "Wow, 100,000,000 irl will get me so much stuff but that's the price of one item?" whereas that much can be obtained fairly quickly at level 50.
It's a stick situation, to be sure. If the supply of the good stuff increases, prices will likely go down but the achiever/seeker types might get bored and those that like to buy sell such items will find other niches. Players naturally want to get the best stuff. If they find that stuff out of their reach, they may gravitate toward easier games or games where you can get your stuff in a more straightforward manner, rather than random rolls/Merit accumulation.
There certainly is too much inf floating around, but the Devs haven't seen this as an issue, Castle's post and Synapse's big post about the economy sometime back aside...it is interesting that in War Witch's post about the merging, she mentioned other sources acting...here it is:
"The other is not quite such common knowledge. Out of nowhere, Wentworths has gained access to new suppliers, but all suspicions and investigations have been stymied by the immaculate paperwork of their new partners. Likewise, the Black Market has suddenly seen a rise in activity, though no one has looked too closely at the why so long as the goods are solid. For now, it remains a mystery."
Whether this refers to the Devs seeding the Market, the Going Rogue system players selling their wares, no one knows...