What is the general consensus on server emptyness?

Then help the devs find an alternative you can live with.

The majority of what I'm seeing in here is sheer denial "oh I can find a team whenever I want and I get blind invites, so nope, the server isn't losing people! It's as good as ever, gosh golly! Yeah the empty streets? Thats just because people are teleporting to missions!"

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. The population of the game has shrunk over the past several years and it's not likely to grow significantly beyond what it is now. Sure we may get new players and attract old ones when GR comes out as the New Shiny, but some other game is also going to launch soon after and be someone's New Shiny too. Historically, the best we can hope for is that the shrinkage levels off at some point that's still financially viable for NCSoft. Higher populations have a direct correlation to subscriptions, especially first time subscriptions, so more populated servers are more attractive for the company than lower pop ones.

Maybe not. But I'd also like to suggest that maybe if it gets to the point where maintaining these servers is costing them new subscriptions as opposed to maintaining an ever shrinking existing base, then it might be a better business decision in the long run even if it alienates some long time players. Or at least might be perceived as one by the NCSoft Bean Counters who aren't the Devs, but who the Devs have to listen to.

I've seen businesses fail because a struggling business owner refused to change to appeal to new customers, because such change is risky and would maybe alienate the few customers they have left. Nevermind that the few customers they have left aren't capable of supporting the business in the long term.

It's not good for the business for players to enter into Mercy Island for the first time and never see another soul. Not in an MMO. Look at how many threads we've seen in just this year from new players asking "is this game dead? I don't see anyone in my server" only to be dogpiled by the "small server purists" and told the reason they don't see anyone else is their own fault because they're TOO STUPID to use search tools and global channels a fresh-out-of-the-zig player is unlikely to know anything about. Which is also not a good thing. You never get a second chance to make a first impression, and that's two bad impressions in a row: a lack of visible population and a hyper-aggressive player base who resents anyone even suggesting for a second that there might possibly be a population problem on some servers.

I play on Virtue, so any decision the devs make isn't likely to impact me terribly much (which does kinda blow the "they'll anger existing players who will leave the game in droves!" theory out of the water: if only the lowest pop servers are merged, the casualties should be minimal).

If I were on a smaller server, however, I'd be concerned about shrinking populations and what this might mean to the bean counters at corporate. I'd be thinking really hard for some way to help the devs satisfy their corporate masters and still preserve the community I belong to.

I certainly would not just stick my head in the sand, insist things are better than ever when clearly they're not. If you care about your server community, and you're on a smaller server, then you should absolutely be concerned about the future of your server, and it'd behoove you to try to think of solutions than deny there is a problem in the first place. The day may not come tomorrow or next week, or maybe not even next year, but if it keeps up like this it will come.

Tabula Rasa's servers were busier than some of the lower pop servers here, and we all know what happened there (much to my personal dismay).

That's all I'm saying.

Originally Posted by eltonio This is over the top mental slavery.

No, he side-stepped the substance of everything I wrote by making a dismissive statement that attempts to discredit me. That isn't "calling it correctly". It's side-stepping the issue. It's a logical fallacy.

I never once said if it's good or bad to play on a small server. I am sure some people like it. My point had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with that. So calling out "oh you don't play on a small server, so thats why you don't see how cool it is" isn't making a valid point when what I wrote had nothing to do with anyone's subjective experiences of being on a smaller server.

So, yeah, reading comprehension fail. For both of you. Because you MISSED THE POINT.

AGAIN.

Geeze, people, I'm trying to help you here. I want to see CoX succeed, and I want to see everyone happy, but I gotta say, the state of the servers today, and the poor reception new players get who ask about it in the forums, concerns me greatly.

So if you wanna just say "oh you don't know how cool our small server is" (despite the fact I did play on a small server and that's WHY I don't play on one anymore) then fine, but I'd rather we find a way to help the game thrive in a way that's best for everyone. Wouldn't you?

Originally Posted by eltonio This is over the top mental slavery.

Tabula Rasa didn't turn a profit. It was a huge money LOSS for NCSoft. THAT is what killed it. Not just a "population drop," but never gaining and sustaining the population to make back the *massive* investment NCSoft put in (due in no small part, I'm sure, to Richard Garriot's name.)

COH, on the other hand, HAS managed to return its investment, and be profitable and sustainable enough for NCSoft to buy the IP, hire the majority of the dev team, provide new offices, hire more people and generally *re*invest.

Saying "Tabula Rasa's servers were busier" (and having played it, honestly we're talking "visibly busier," as it had the typical-MMO, everyone run outside to the same spawn points to fight over the same spawns design that's a staple of all but a few MMOs... that few including COH) ignores everything else that went wrong with it. Fun game? Sure, sort of. But its population had an initial spike and such a massive, immediate downward fall that it had no hope of ever paying back NCSoft's investment. Thus, it died - not from server populations, but business realities.
See above. (For another example of visible population not mattering here where it matters elsewhere, see Aion. It's an open world PVP game, barring a few zones, and its population drop has led NC to decide to merge servers - and the initial interest I had in dusting off my characters there and playing has fizzled because of it.) COH, not being an open-world PVP game (and PVP itself never being a huge draw even at its peak) wouldn't have that issue to worry about. COH's playstyle and profitability are in a place that, no, server merges aren't needed.

What would the bean counters see? "Initial investment - paid back. Profitable, yes. Profitable for the next fiscal year with current subs and trends? Yep. Next?"
For someone who apparently likes calling out "logical fallacies," you make quite a few yourself. How many people play *only* on one server? Especially in a game that caters so heavily towards alts? A fair number I run across have people on multiple servers. Get them (and, I'll say, me) irritated enough to leave, and guess what - they're leaving your *large* server too. (I do have characters I play on Virtue, for instance, including a villainous version of my forum-namesake. I leave, the loss of my accounts is not just affecting Victory and Pinnacle. It's affecting every server - since I have characters on, and play on, every server, though I tend to avoid Freedom because I find the teaming experiences and "community" there unpleasant.)

See my Guides and Tutorials

I'll just take this opportunity to go after the only one that actually has merit.

"by the way, when EATs must start in their "native" zones - goes against all that"

Take a moment and think about what you just said and weigh it against what I said. If you don't see the disconnect then feel free to ask me to point it out. I'll happily do it in a way that can further lower your opinion of me even more. Because your opinion Memphis, as well formed as it is on sound reasoning and intellectual decorum, is really important to me.

The funny thing is is that gating new players into GR isn't even a great idea, but the fact that the best you could come up with to counter is talking about AT's that you can't even unlock as the class of player I'm talking about is just rich. Well, I got a good laugh out of your post anyway. At least you didn't disappoint as your counter was about as good as your lists. Your are true to form.

At any rate, if no one comes up with a decent reason not to gate new players and if I remember to do it, I'll swing by this thread tomorrow and offer up an actual counter or two that would be worthy of consideration. But with the counters I have in mind it is still a more positive idea than not, so I'm hoping for someone to get their hamster spinning the wheel even if you didn't.

No. Most people want to play the game as they enjoy it and couldn't care less about the game's health short of it being up and running. The health of the game runs counter to what most people actually want. I'm certainly no different in that regard, I openly lobby for pvp. Of course what I want I can actually provide somewhat compelling reasons to support whereas people that harp about their right to play on a small server are just hilarious.

They of course want to enjoy all the benefits that the larger servers bring them like:
-making money for the game so they can play new content alone
-enjoying new tech upgrades that the larger populations have brought them
-using the market to buy IO's that are largely generated on the bigger servers
-and more that I don't care enough to think of

The really funny thing is that they could merge the entire population on to one server and you'd still be able to log in at any time and find entire zones empty or close to it where you could play alone to your heart's content. But those people (and they are up front about it) don't want to see anyone even when they travel in to the "city".

I don't personally care one way or the other if you like to play with no one around or 1000 people watching you constantly. What I'm bothered by is people acting (or even saying) it is their right in this game to play on a low population server. For those people I'd like them to think about just one thing. They haven't consolidated servers as a result of low numbers, this much is true. But they also wouldn't expand the number of servers if by some miracle numbers grew considerably. That should spell out exactly where those "rights" sit.

Strangely enough, those that play on large AND small servers make up the *total game population.* All those subs, regardless of server, make money for the game.

Try to think through your own arguments. Oh, a hint - read prior statements about "people playing on multiple servers." I don't pay a Virtue sub, a Victory sub, etc. I pay for a subscription (multiple, actually) to City of Heroes.
Again - everybody's subs pay for these. Not just Freedom's.
One you can almost prove, just from adding the word "largely!" Since, after all, even you wouldn't go so far as to say the smaller servers don't generate any.

Unsurprisingly, you ignore the fact that hardware can be added to handle larger populations. (The developers, for instance, have told us that Freedom has more hardware dedicated to it.) Your "point" proves exactly nothing. (Of course, given it's your strawman, it's not meant to.) They would not need to add a twelfth through twentieth server. Just give the existing servers additional hardware to handle this (say) extra 200,000 people that suddenly showed up.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Well, yeah, I was referring specifically to the tutorial, but you make a good point. I think a lot of it will have to do with expectations. Anecdotal evidence, but I've found there's a pretty good split between gamers and super-hero fans that are drawn to this game. People like me, the latter that wouldn't touch WoW with a ten foot pole, are going to be thrilled to see anyone at all around at first. Someone trying this out from other MMOs is probably going to be disappointed in the lack of visible people. I personally have no preference in the order, myself. If they were trying to get people to fill up the lower populated servers...well...did it work? I don't know what their datamining says, but I doubt it.

No one at all? Even on Victory in the "middle of the night" (US) I still see people around. Not crowds, but there's always someone.

Hmmm...I see the problem but I don't really agree with the solution. First, the "forced" issue. I think "seeing people" is further down the list of why people will stay or not than you do. A wider variety of options is better here, IMHO. Second is that it's short term. Sure, Praetoria's gonna be hoppin' for those first couple of months, but then you're right back where you started (unless things skyrocket after QR, but I don't think anyone's expecting that kind of bump). Third there's the "this isn't a trial, I paid for the game...how come I can't do that other thing over there?" problem. An MMO with a probationary period? I don't think that would work at all.

LEGION OF VALOR - Be a part of the Legend!

A possible solution is a new user experience for both blue and redside. Clear out the crap starter missions we have now and do something spiffy so that whether or not you buy GR, you get a fresh and interesting starting experience.

Doesn't have to be 1 - 20. I think just up to level 10 would be fine.

Honestly, I don't believe there is a solution that can fix those problems without upsetting more of the population then just doing it. Which is why I believe that when mergers happen, this is the route they will go.

Really? Don't see people saying that the server isn't losing people or that it is as good as ever. I see people saying they can still get teams. Perhaps you are reading more into it then I.

As for mission teleport, most I say provide more then that as an explanation such as a heavily instanced game, and mulptiple means of travel, and no incentive to street sweep. Again, I do not see that as buring your head in the sand but, reason why on a smaller server there is an appearance of no one on even if there is. Are there more people on the street on a more heavily populated server? No doubt about it.

Answer this hypothical question, with populations of the servers being equal between CoH and another game like WoW, which one will be seen as having more people? I say WoW because you will see far more people out and about doing outside missions and walking or riding to a mission.

I hear what your saying. But, businesses also fail because they not not attempt to retain their current customers. Attacting new customers is good. But, to truly grow you need to do both, you would not agree?

Telling someone how you find teams is not telling them they are stupid. It is teaching them UI of the game. Those of us that are on smaller servers can find teams just fine and here is how we do it. But of course, since we can find teams we are just blind to the smaller population right?

I said I will leave, which is about as important as you staying since you are on virture and it does not impact you. I find that statement to be callous, btw. Since it is not liekly to impact you, you have no problem if your fellow players are forced into accepting the possible loss of character/SG names andthe loss of community that we feel on our servers (I think all servers have this but, merging communities will change the dynamcs).

I never said players will leave in droves. What I said was I doubt I am alone and that there is a possiblity that enough will leave to no longer support 5 servers. You may be right. It may be minimal. But, there is the certainty that I will be gone.

You don't play on a smaller server anymore because you didn't enjoy it. That is fine, for you. Not all of us agree.

I would love to find a way that is best for everyone. I'm going to turn the tables. Come up with a solution that addresses the issues that you have discounted; the name change issues, the fact that some like to play on smaller servers, and that retains the relationships that we as a community have built.

--Rad

you are 100% totaly wrong and self centered. all of your "points" are absolutely false. it is everybodies right to play on which ever and what ever kind of server they want to play on.

servers are not what makes NCsoft money. the subscriptoins are. also, drops are generated on all servers and available to all servers.

Emphasis mine. This is hysterical.

Whether I play on Guardian or Freedom, it doesn't frikken matter (I play on both of them, by the way; in fact, I play regularly on all the servers). I pay the same subscription, regardless. If I am subscribed to the game, I am helping to pay for the upgrades to the game. It doesn't matter what server I've chosen to play on, or even if I'm playing the game at all. And sometimes I go more than a month without playing but I'm still subscribed, so how do you fit THAT into your little theory? I'm helping build the game, but I'm not playing on a low pop server or a high pop server. Zounds! You might need to rethink your comment there. Since it's wrong and all.

Originally Posted by Dispari I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

This has been brought up several times. For me, even though it's newer, redside is an absolute bore, moreso than blueside - if nothing else from being able to get a change of scenery blueside. Kalinda/Mongoose or Burke/Gheed, newspaper, V/H/B, etc, over and over again - ugh. But both sides could use a freshening up.

Heck, we have MA. Have the devs get some player involvement to write new storyarcs. Three month timeframe, winners become official arcs (credited, perhaps a 3-6mo. free time thrown in) - international legalities might be the biggest issue there. Of course, there are lowbie starter arcs in there already.

But yeah. Some freshening up there would be nice.

See my Guides and Tutorials

This please. There is allways going to be people for and against server merges. However this solution would put a stop to most of the complaints about this issue. At the same time it wont realy change any thing. Its just informing players of what could easy be found out here on the forums or on the wiki the only difference is that it would be right there when they log in and not be something they would have to go digging for. (By that I mean do anything other than play the game)

Captain Den'Rath 53* Merk/Traps MM, Rivona 50Energy Blast/Time Cor,Victoria Von Heilwig 53* Dual Pistols/Traps Cor, Crab Spider Webguard 53* SOA, Accela 53* Bot/FF MM,Valkyrie's Executor 53* Broadsword/Shield Def Scrap. On FREEDOM! @Knight Of Bronze

That's a "logical" argument, Mr. Logical Man?

Common sense and a quick look at their history books. Just off the top of my head: Dungeon Runners, that Soccer Game, Tabula Rasa, and Auto Assault.

You know, I could actually get behind that. As I recall, those servers are the most populated because they are holdovers from the beta. The devs should not have kept beta server names in the first place. It prompted people from the beta to crowd the servers they were on before instead of distributing the population more evenly.

Not sure what the implications of doing something like this now is though. Still, I'd be for it. I'm not a fan of high lag and rubberbanding in exchange for grouping with more people.

This poster is absolutely right. So many problem, so many issues forced onto a playerbase which is, mostly, happy as-is. People would quit in -droves- as their names got taken, their SGs were splintered across multiple servers, and so on.

Merging the Servers would signal the end of the game if it didn't outright kill it.

-Rachel-

How about "Duh!"?
And both people who quoted me left out the smiley.

Hey if it resulted in a healthy population then I'm game. It wouldn't though, the non-populated servers would absorb the populations of freedom/virtue and you'd just have a bunch of thinly populated servers. Which is probably worse than it is now because at least right now you can find a couple servers that have a pulse.

Of course you present the same fear mongering as Memphis in that we simply don't know how names/sg and everything else that we currently view as server specific would be handled. There is no evidence that suggests your character name or sg would go bye bye Just as there is no evidence that suggests it wouldn't. Claiming it would definitely be one way like is often done in these discussions is a very weak tactic. It is also the strongest "argument" you guys tend to stand behind.

FWIW I don't really think there should be a merger and I've held (and stated) that opinion for a long time now. I mean why bother? The EU servers have clearly demonstrated they don't care how sparse things get. What there should be though is a much clearer system in place directing players to the server that will best provide them with the play experience they desire. If a player wants to play out in the boonies they can, just as if they want to play in a more typical MMO atmosphere they can, and just as if they want to play on an rp heavy server, that too should be available. It should be available because it is already available and it probably isn't worth changing at this stage of the game. But a player shouldn't have to come to the forums to find that stuff out.

If more info was available on the server page you'd have less people regretting their server selection decision. You'd have less people like me that originally chose a server because I liked the name (Infinity is one of my fav car brands) and fairly quickly realized I did not like teaming up with tumble weeds. You'd also have less people that picked freedom for w/e reason and realized they don't like MMO's and want a more private server experience. Less dissension is a good thing.

A healthy population is what we have. You see, that's not your call, that's NCSoft's, and they appear just fine with it.

LEGION OF VALOR - Be a part of the Legend!

Snarky comments aside, I do have to wonder at the nature of the emptiness as perceived on the other servers.

Even as someone who doesn't team on a regular basis, that doesn't mean that I don't like seeing people in the game. I like to look at different costumes and read bios(where present).

True story:

The other day I was on Infinity about to zone from Port Oakes to Cap when I heard another player pleading for people to team with. He was actually saying that he thought he was alone in the game. I did tell him that he wasn't, but I was kind of pressed for time and about to log off so I couldn't really talk to him at length.

That's not the first time I've seen that kind of thing. And as fine as we all may think the player population is, perception to newer players is a big thing.

This game has always been heavily instanced. And even when the tanker changes and other things went live that made street sweeping less rewarding, it still seemed like there were more folks going about their business in general around the city.

And as pointed out before, no one should have to come to the forums to find out that there are people out there to play with. Global channels etc. should not be a requirement for finding others to play with. And if they are, then that is the sort of info that should be presented to players at the start of their play experience.

I'm hoping that tip missions help to make street battles a bit more common place and this helps to put more players out in the open. I guess we'll see when Issue 18 goes live.