Let's Discuss: Kinetic Melee

Hey everyone. As the title says, I'd like to get some chatter going about the upcoming Kinetic Melee set for the melee ATs. There hasn't been much serious conversation about it since the demo video was shown at PAX and the Devs haven't offered much more than tidbits of rather cryptic information. Hopefully this thread will become the main forum for discussion of the set as we all anxiously await Going Rogue's release.

As I've read it there are three main topics on everyone's mind concerning Kinetic Melee. They are as follows:

DAMAGE BUFF EFFECT

There's been some speculation that Kinetic Melee may provide a damage buff for attacks that are made against the player. The reason behind this being that kinetics has always been depicted in various media as redirecting the energy of attacks made back toward the foe. Castle had this to say on the matter:

Quote:

Originally Posted by That_Ninja Shouldn't Kinetic Melee have an inherent power that makes your attacks stronger the more you are hit? Quote: Originally Posted by Castle Powersets don't tend to get Inherent powers. Archetypes do. That said...you are on the right track, aside from that.

The prospect is very tantilizing but it comes with an obvious problem. What about Brutes? The mechanic as its been conceptualized is identical to Fury. If implemented that way it means you'd have doubly cracked out Brutes runnin' around. Unless the damage buff was very small or came with a hefty penalty you'd run the risk of having Kinetic Melee become the new Super Strength, a set that supercharges itself without the need for any outside assistance.

KNOCKBACK

Knockback is always a source of contention here on the forums. Many love the aesthetics that ragdoll physics provide but detest targets being flung about. This is particularly true when it comes to melee ATs. Many have complained about KB from powers like Crane Kick, Solar Flare and the old Foot Stomp.

The teaser video showed several of Kinetic Melee's powers knocking foes DOWN. However, there was a scene in which an enemy was knocked back. This indicates that the set uses low mag KB as its primary form of mitigation. Those who are familiar with the game's mechanics know that Knockdown is simply low mag Knockback and that only enemies below the level of the player experience KB in this instance.

ANIMATION TIMES

One of the primary concerns as of late has been the apparent trend toward long flashy animations in new powersets. Dual Pistols is the primary example when this issue comes up. Many worry that these long animation times will come with insufficient damage numbers to compensate. Thus leaving Kinetic Melee with sub par overall DPS. There's not much argument to make on the matter. Only a Dev can shed any light on the actual numbers and its unlikely that'll happen. We'll probably end up having to wait for open beta.

Closing

That's it for now. Like I said, I hope that this thread becomes the main source for discussion and info regarding Kinetic Melee. And, with any luck, Castle himself will grace us with some clarification as to the particulars of the powerset. With that said, let the talking...err...typing begin

When I first read the quote from Castle, my thought was that the attacks in Kinetic Melee will have a -RES Debuff component, similar to Sonic Attacks. It is one the few attributes that a melee set does not have currently, and it would be nice to see it. My other thought is that it could have some damage buff component, or maybe a -DMG Debuff. Essentially, things that the Kinetics Buff/Debuff set has.

Res debuff doesn't make sense to me in a set called kinetic melee.

Not worried about KB, I'm sure it will be all KD as shown in the vid (only one guy got kb'ed after some AoE), I'm worried it will have 5 or 6 moves that take as long to animate as Energy Transfer and the like.

Having seen the video, I think it looks spectacular. I can't wait to roll a kinetic melee. I hope the damage justifies the long animations, but I'll still roll one even if it doesn't. On a seperate note I love KB. KB is great so long as it's single target. I agree scattering a spawn is not good.

One possible way to handle a +DMG effect would be to limit its application to successful attacks only. That would fit the traditional idea of kinetics having to receive energy before redirecting it. But that approach has its own problems. Most notably the favoring of Resistance oriented armor sets as opposed to Defense oriented ones.

A -DMG effect would be nice. I can't quite fathom how -RES would work thematically with Kinetic Melee. Just doesn't seem quite right. I'm also curious about the exact implementation of such an effect. Would it be a secondary function of attacks or built into the swirling aura that was in the video?

I'm just hoping for an alternate set of animation to choose from that are less goofy. The animation times would obviously be the same, but I'd rather have a character punch the air so hard an enemy 20 feet away is knocked over, rather than do some flashy tai-chi motions and waving his hands around.

But I'm also a Brute player, so...

One power with 100% chance of knockback is good. 6 powers with 25% chance of knockback are terrible.

On the damage by hitting we already have this mechanic is place Blinding Feint (DB) and Follow Up (Claws) they do damage and Tohit buff + act as an attack when you hit so the mechanic is already in place

My guess is we are getting a scrapper version of siphon power

Follow up and BF have the exact stats except BF has a 1.2 Cast vs .83
Cast: .83/1.2
to hit: 10%
Dam buff:37.5%
Recharge:12s
Duration:10s
end: 7.8

Siphon Power and of course 80 range
Cast: 1.93
Dam buff:-25%
Dam buff:25%
Recharge:20s
Duration:30s
end: 10.4

Now I look for the numbers to be adjusted and should fall inline with the other attacks listed and the range will be dropped from 80 to what ? Scrappers do have sets with ranges attacks of 30' and 40' but each set has only two and they do not buff damage so I expect the range to go to the 7'

Now -resistance would be nice I doubt we see that built in the only way scrappers get it now is from a proc in -defense powers (sword sets) and a long recharge -resistance melted armor in the fire epic

when i first heard about kinetic melee i thought "here comes another -end set "

Under the myriad of Def building strategies, I don't know that I would put it past the Dev team to release a primary that benefited primarily from a resistance secondary in that it builds more damage from getting smacked in the face. Perhaps to bring emphasis to resistance and see where they are lacking or where they perform in the form of a cleverly designed powerset.

If it has a method of siphon speeding itself, I could see this becoming the de-facto set for Granite Tankers, assuming the previous paragraph is true (and probably even if it only had Siphon Speed).

On the other hand, the FURY mechanic does not require that you get hit with attack to generate ANGER, so, at least from a mechanical standpoint, I don't see why they wouldn't just allow you to build your damage from either a hit or miss unless they were specifically attempting to discourage the use of defense based sets in combination with it.

THEMATICALLY of course, I'm not sure it makes sense, though if it is like Tai-Chi, perhaps it does. After all, a big part of most martial arts *is* redirecting attacks *away* from you, rather than just getting punched in the face.

On a personal note, it seems a bit too much like ballet and not enough like Dual Pistol's break dancing to hold my interest for too long, but we'll see how it looks when it's in a more ready stage. So long as it's not 8 feet fall, has five others of itself, is glowing like a flashlight, and is pushing me all over the ********* map, I probably won't hate it.

I agree that this *seems* like some combo of SS or stone (lots of KD/KB) and energy (long animations) with Jazz hands, but hey - we get Jazz Hands!!

I am would like to know more about any inovative mechanics to the set.

Unfortunatly, at this time it is all rampent speculation, so I'm not really interested in disecting a set too much that we know so little about.

I'm still going to play it. If it isnt an uber performance set, I have several concept builds in mind.

Maybe the more you're hit or more baddies in range the faster you become (interupt animations - a very interesting slotting option that is a highly UNDER used mechanic, IMO), with the power-up (siphon power animation) in effect. Say like you jump in a spawn, "siphon-power" and *while you are glowing* you would get a buff based on what I just mentioned. No doubt that a "double dependant" mechanic is unconvetional, but would justify a really nice buff. Or just the siphon quickens the attacks.

This is all just too early to tell.

Based on the original conversation with Castle quoted here, there could be a toggle that provides a damage buff based on incoming damage.

Not an inherent, as Castle says, but similar.

If the set does have a Fury toggle (or any other +Damage generating mechanism), it benefits Brutes the least, since Brutes are blanaced to operate under a +Damage bonus most of the time, and thus gain proportionally less from +Damage from their powersets.

Maybe this will replace Build Up for Kinetic Melee?

Then again, the same argument applies to Against all Odds, Rage and Build Up, so... oh well

I am really looking forwards to this.

Judging by the little bit we've seen and how powers are built often leaning to some sort of style, I can see Kinetic Melee being a bit more of an outlier. Maybe not in some ways unlike Dark Melee. It's not just about raw damage, but has a whole bag of tricks backing it up like Siphon, Dark Consumption, and Soul Drain. Energy Aura for brutes and stalkers is equally kind of a goofy/unique armor set which doesn't really behave like most armor sets. It would not surprise me if Kinetic Melee is something along those lines, less about "OMG MASSIVE DAMAGE" and more with all kinds of ways to ruin someone's day if you're smart about it. Maybe some kinds of control, from knockdown/knockup to holds and debuffs or damage reworking.

The question I have about it is that after watching those animations, I worry it will be yet another melee set that doesn't work with Shields. We've already got katana, claws, spines, and dual blades that don't work with the Shield set because of the two handed animations. Looking at the swirlyness, I am concerned that a shield wouldn't work with that, unless they give us one handed animations or something for kinetics/shields.

My question is do you have to make your character look like Strong Guy from X-Factor to be taken seriously?

Now on an actual serious note. I much prefer sets that do those little funky things to keep you alive as compared to the straight up "You can't hit me so there...pbbbttt" types of sets so this would appeal to me.

Nerf it.


Seriousily though, I think it would be neat to have a self buff similar to Parry or Divine Avalanche only buff resistance to smashing and energy. Perhaps instead of Build Up, make it a power that buffs smashing/energy resistance by 15% for 15 seconds and then after 15 seconds buffs damage by however much, dependent on the recharge time of the power, et cetera.

Maybe it's more of a power buff for a chain of sucsessful attacks. As it 'an object in motion stays in motion' only 'a character doing damage keeps doing damage until the miss'.

I dunno, just have to wait and see I guess.

I expect it to have effects similar to DM, an attack that does some damage and tranfers end/hp/acc, and/or several such attacks.