Discussion: Formspring.me 4/23 Dev Q&A Transcript
By
AliasiSudonomo,
Posted on: 2010-04-23 17:17 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
You just got yourself some positive Rep, Wuigly Squigly!
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Coincidently, a designer recently pointed out this bug to me, and it's definitely something I'd like to fix. Looks pretty dang weird if you ask me. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
See, the reason I ask is that I've actually seen this in various ways in-game...
Finally, CURRENTLY ON LIVE female lower arms that use anything "with skin," such as the Fingerless Gloves texture for Smooth Gloves or the Pointed Glove and Flared Glove 3D model options will have the MALE lower arm texture, ... ...It'd certainly make me personally VERY happy, and even if nothing comes out of it, at least I know SOMEONE heard my suggestions after all these years  |
The character team's completely tapped right now, working on [redacted], but I'll look into the bug for sure. Man, I bet you can't wait to get all those awesome [redacted] parts!
As for the larger point, all I can promise for now is that we'll continue to look into it. If there turns out to be a manageable compromise, and the player base continues to show interest, of course we'd consider it.
Being relatively new to the Art Lead post, though, I'm still in the process of getting an overall read on costume/character requests. I get PMs all the time asking for one thing or another, and the requests are all over the map as you might expect. GOING ROGUE and the next Super Booster will fill at least two major categories, but after that we'll just have to see.
David Nakayama, Lead Concept Artist
COH Concept Art Gallery now open at http://pixelsaurus.deviantart.com/
Read you loud and clear!
Hear that, folks? All we have to do is keep bugging the Devs!
"If there turns out to be a manageable compromise, and the player base continues to show interest, of course we'd consider it."
This CLEARLY means we just have to keep repeating ourselves until it happens.
So!
David, you wonderful and kind individual, we'd like greater costume piece parity for all three player character models, with absolutely no limits based on gender/sex.
Yes, I'm serious here. More serious than the stuff I said at the start of this post, but . . . um . . . yeah.
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I think I have a new favourite developer. My apologies, BABs, you'll always be the best in my heart, but David still gets the First Place for Coolness medal this year |
Originally Posted by David Nakayama
As for the larger point, all I can promise for now is that we'll continue to look into it. If there turns out to be a manageable compromise, and the player base continues to show interest, of course we'd consider it.
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Thank you kindly for the responses, good sir!
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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When you max out the sliders on the female model, she can look pretty darn beefy. I think a muscled texture would definitely look fine on that. There are also many thinner women out there who are definitively muscled without being bodybuilders. Looking toned doesn't necessarily equate to looking like you're on the 'roids. |
Originally Posted by David Nakayama
Adding a new texture to the existing geometry, on the other hand, is relatively simple and doable because it's just one costume set. But then we get into an aesthetic issue: would a muscle texture even work on such a thin model? Personally, I think it'd look pretty awful. The female model's obviously exaggerated to be lithe and graceful, and slapping a muscle texture on it would look incongrous at best and downright jarring at worst. It's a move that has the potential to make the game look worse, so I'm not really in favor of spending resources there.
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I don't know, on one hand, I understand that the art team and everyone wants to keep their visual standards high and maintain a consistent aesthetic in the game. On the other hand, it almost feels offensive to have someone made a blanket judgment that women in the game just can't look like that.
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Originally Posted by David Nakayama
As for the larger point, all I can promise for now is that we'll continue to look into it. If there turns out to be a manageable compromise, and the player base continues to show interest, of course we'd consider it.
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I'm hoping is that there isn't some sort of secret unspoken reason to deny unisexing on the grounds of "THINK OF THE CHILDREN" in regards to having more androgynous looking or transvestite characters. That would just be utterly disappointing to me...
And yes, I do realize I can just go play another game or stop my subscription or whatever if I'm not happy with the current aesthetic options. But I love this game, most especially for the open communication between the devs and the playerbase. I'm just hoping that in communicating our desires for more unisex customization options, we can convince the dev/design team that, yes, it is something that enough players would want for it to be worth doing.
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Well, since you asked... |
Originally Posted by David Nakayama
As for the larger point, all I can promise for now is that we'll continue to look into it. If there turns out to be a manageable compromise, and the player base continues to show interest, of course we'd consider it.
Being relatively new to the Art Lead post, though, I'm still in the process of getting an overall read on costume/character requests. I get PMs all the time asking for one thing or another, and the requests are all over the map as you might expect. GOING ROGUE and the next Super Booster will fill at least two major categories, but after that we'll just have to see. |
A long while back I requested auras that match the major costume patterns. For example, if you had a Circuitry pattern on your costume, then you could give it a glow.
I saw the image of an NPC in GR that had a similar effect, but I understand that's baked in to the character model. I understand that doing it would probably take lots of work over lots of time. But hey, if you don't ask...
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Not getting involved in your discussions between each other, but I think this all goes to show that typing a few ideas and actually been sat in front of someone discussing it equals a lot of misinterpritation and anger levels rising..|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm trying to figure out why your questions might not have been addressed. If you're not going to actually post the questions as phrased, I can only go by what you say. And in terms of "overthinking things to make a point" my only point is this: I don't have any problems asking the devs questions and getting answers. So much so that I never seriously participate in Q&As, either in-game, on the forums, or in any other venue, because it would be unfair. I'm willing to help you try to get your questions answered, if you actually have legitmate questions that can be answered. If that is of no benefit to you, that's fine. I have no other point to prove there.
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I'm sure if player A was sat in front of the devs actually speaking to them, rather than typing out a question like they were making notes they might get the question across better than player B who could write disitations on a question and all the possible outcomes. This doesn't just apply here I think, but accross the forums as a whole.
I think that without actually speaking to someone it is difficult to ask the pertinant questions, but having a crib list as a prompt would help. The expanision on how you expanded one of the questions earlier in the thread shows exactly how someone with a list of bullet point would expand them.
So with that in mind.....next time we have Q&A's lets all PM them to Arcaneville
( or a few others on the forums who are good at that kind of thing) to expand the bullet points into fully formed questions, as I know I am good at bullet points, and interviewing people face to face, but not as good as others here at the written ones.
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You can ask the Mods to start official feedback/request/bug threads for specific things you want to know about and ask the Mods to.. um... *moderate* those threads so that they don't devolve into lengthy discussions you don't have time to wade through. Just a simple post with a bug/request/feedback and then let it go. We had that with JLove for the Official Costume Request Thread and Official Costume Bug Report thread. And BAB had such a thing for the Official Weapon Request thread.|
Originally Posted by David Nakayama
Being relatively new to the Art Lead post, though, I'm still in the process of getting an overall read on costume/character requests. I get PMs all the time asking for one thing or another, and the requests are all over the map as you might expect. GOING ROGUE and the next Super Booster will fill at least two major categories, but after that we'll just have to see.
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And while you're looking at bugs, check out the problem with capes here. The solution is more than just finding missing artwork, it requires a Staff Decision about special cape availability from level 1.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
Instead of making a "huge female" model, why not just let all characters choose what face they want, whether it be male or female. Issue solved
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Bwahahaha*snort*hahaha...Man, that's awesome. I hope DN hasn't been too put off by all the fuss over the giant female model snit because I think most of us are greatful there was an explanation.
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Originally Posted by David Nakayama
The character team's completely tapped right now, working on [redacted], but I'll look into the bug for sure. Man, I bet you can't wait to get all those awesome [redacted] parts! |
Kohei-Vigilance Committee Founder
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With all this talk about costumes and body sizes and whatnot, there's exactly one thing I want to know:
When do we get more costume slots ?
"Another Particular MMO" allows people to purchase costume slots. There's even a YouTube video by one of their subscribers showing off that he bought a total of 45(!) costume slots. CoH started with 4 and has gained a grand total of 1 slot in its history.
Buying them, unlocking one through a Costume Slot TF (Save Icon Inc from XYZ!), recipe drop (ala Respec recipe), whatever - i'd just like to be able to *get some more*
HMO
___
"They may be called Heroes, inasmuch as they have derived their purpose and their vocation, not from the calm regular course of things, sanctioned by the existing order; but from a concealed fount, from that inner Spirit, still hidden beneath the surface, which impinges on the outer world as on a shell and bursts it into pieces" - Some 20th Century person.
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Originally Posted by David Nakayama
Coincidently, a designer recently pointed out this bug to me, and it's definitely something I'd like to fix. Looks pretty dang weird if you ask me.
The character team's completely tapped right now, working on [redacted], but I'll look into the bug for sure. Man, I bet you can't wait to get all those awesome [redacted] parts! As for the larger point, all I can promise for now is that we'll continue to look into it. If there turns out to be a manageable compromise, and the player base continues to show interest, of course we'd consider it. Being relatively new to the Art Lead post, though, I'm still in the process of getting an overall read on costume/character requests. I get PMs all the time asking for one thing or another, and the requests are all over the map as you might expect. GOING ROGUE and the next Super Booster will fill at least two major categories, but after that we'll just have to see. |
I want Malaise pattern back. I have one toon with the Malaise pants, and I always wanted a top to match. The costume is the original costume from issue 3 when I started, so it is less than optimal. I cant change it to make it look better because the pants will vanish...
YMMV---IMO
Ice Ember
Did someone say Huge Model Females?
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
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How long can the Redacted costume set take? It's just a bunch of rectangular black boxes overlaid on the model.|
Originally Posted by David Nakayama
The character team's completely tapped right now, working on [redacted], but I'll look into the bug for sure. Man, I bet you can't wait to get all those awesome [redacted] parts!
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Originally Posted by FallenAngelEyes
I'm hoping is that there isn't some sort of secret unspoken reason to deny unisexing on the grounds of "THINK OF THE CHILDREN" in regards to having more androgynous looking or transvestite characters. That would just be utterly disappointing to me...
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The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Did someone say Huge Model Females?
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Close but no cigar. (No pun intended)
Kilts, extreme chest enhancement and pink costumes aside the huge model still has that all too obvious male triangular torso. Now if the body mod allowed you to increase or decrease curves to the hips you could possibly make a passable huge female in conjunction with allowing female faces on the huge models.
>
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"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
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Actually, you've got that backwards.|
Originally Posted by HMO_Medic
CoH started with 4 and has gained a grand total of 1 slot in its history.
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You started with 1 (unalterable!) slot and we've since gained four more.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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I don't have Mids in front of me right now, but is the -Res and -Def from MM's Tar Patch really equivalent to what Defender Radiation Emission can do? (I'm guessing no, but again I don't have the numbers right now.) There was plenty of -ToHit and +Def, but that doesn't seem to matter too much to the Cysts, or at least didn't at the time. I should also point out that five (or six?) of the team members were Repeat Offenders, and only the remainder were a PuG, so it's not like we were playing with inexperienced people. I would be happy to run this more scientifically, though getting an all-MM ITF together is fairly difficult for some reason. (On Freedom, even.) At least it has been for me. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
But MMs get lots of force multiplication. The team you mentioned had tons of -resistance and -defense and -regen. They also had tons of -to-hit and -damage as well as lots of +defense and +resistance.
It is mind boggling to me that a team with 2 Darkest Nights, 2 Tar Patch, 2 Twilight Grasps, 2 Shadow Fall, Flash Arrow, PGA, Acid Arrow, Disruption Arrow, Hurricane, Steamy Mist, Freezing Rain, Anguishing Cry, Suppress Pain, World of Pain, Acid Mortar, PT, Seeker Drones, FFG, Triage Beacon, and 2 Dispersion Bubbles could have trouble with any AV fight, much less one that features negative energy damage. |
It may have also just been that group and that day, who knows? Maybe I'm totally wrong. I've played on all-MM teams (not always eight, but always five or more) probably half a dozen times. I can't really guess at how often I've played on all (/most) DefTroller teams, but it certainly feels (again, in my experience) that the DefTroller teams are more capable of steamrolling. Not that the MMs have a lot of trouble, and I'm guessing an all-MM team is going to have an easier go than, for instance, an all-Blaster or all-Stalker team, but it just doesn't seem to go *as* fast as the DefTroller team.
Again I'm totally up for a more scientific look. Maybe I'll try to organize a triple-all-MM-ITF followed by a triple-all-DefTrolCorr ITF to get a better average.
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That's pretty much my plan. We're getting some useful discussion out of this, and it should really be it's own thread. |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
You can ask the Mods to start official feedback/request/bug threads...
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I won't be able to respond every day necessarily or get a whole bunch of special requests expedited through the pipeline, but at the very least I'd like to know what's on the playerbase's collective wishlist and, whenever possible technically, whenever it makes sense aesthetically, to argue for those things as part of the game's ongoing development.
As you'd expect, most of the focus is on expanding into completely new territory, but I don't want to lose sight of artistic gaps created along the way. Often, there are creative ways to do both at the same time.
David Nakayama, Lead Concept Artist
COH Concept Art Gallery now open at http://pixelsaurus.deviantart.com/
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Thanks David. |
Originally Posted by David Nakayama
As for the larger point, all I can promise for now is that we'll continue to look into it. If there turns out to be a manageable compromise, and the player base continues to show interest, of course we'd consider it.
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You know, some anonymous person who I know absolutely nothing about and have never met before dropped this unusual, probably illegally-created image in my inbox. Apparently some kind stranger took pity on my poor argument and decided to something that I don't understand and know nothing about and apparently create a female model with what looks like a fairly muscular torso. I'm sure that whoever this person is could get in trouble, so it's a good thing he remained anonymous.
Let's look at the image, though. One of my bigger complaints with the female models in this game is that their waists are always too narrow and their arms always too skinny, but look at this. Even though the model geometry is exactly the same, both the waist and the arms look rather a lot more solid. It's an optical illusion, really, but being that this is a make-pretend game, do we really care? I understand this is probably not to everyone's tastes, but can you honestly tell me that this looks UGLY? Because I seriously doubt it.
Now, one would probably theorise that the breasts on the model may look really awkward with this texture, and I would guess that might be the case, but since whoever it was that made this pic didn't show me the model piece-by-piece, I wouldn't know. As you can tell, we can't see the chest area in this screenshot because my anonymous benefactor seems to have hidden it under the Enforcer chest piece. I have no idea why, but he probably had a reason. But even if there were a problem with it, one would assume that a graphic artist could probably fix it if there were an actual, supported, legal version of that texture.
I'm sure whoever it was that made this picture is very sorry for doing it, but we can't let his or her wrongdoing go to waste, so let's try and use this as a very rough example of what COULD be possible if ever there were a time when the art team weren't too busy with redacted work
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yeah that muscular torso looks good enough to me; another one that was actually made for the female model would probably be better.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
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See? That's what I was talking about. Even just using in-game resources, however that was done, the results are not TOO bad, and I'm sure David and Jay and the others are more than awesome enough to make it so much better |
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
Yeah that muscular torso looks good enough to me; another one that was actually made for the female model would probably be better.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Ah, Xanta looks complete! Well, almost. Give her a big, horkin' sword and I think she'd be about as close to your original idea as the game could come. She looks much better with that kind of definition.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You know, some anonymous person who I know absolutely nothing about and have never met before dropped this unusual, probably illegally-created image in my inbox. Apparently some kind stranger took pity on my poor argument and decided to something that I don't understand and know nothing about and apparently create a female model with what looks like a fairly muscular torso. I'm sure that whoever this person is could get in trouble, so it's a good thing he remained anonymous.
Let's look at the image, though. One of my bigger complaints with the female models in this game is that their waists are always too narrow and their arms always too skinny, but look at this. Even though the model geometry is exactly the same, both the waist and the arms look rather a lot more solid. It's an optical illusion, really, but being that this is a make-pretend game, do we really care? I understand this is probably not to everyone's tastes, but can you honestly tell me that this looks UGLY? Because I seriously doubt it. Now, one would probably theorise that the breasts on the model may look really awkward with this texture, and I would guess that might be the case, but since whoever it was that made this pic didn't show me the model piece-by-piece, I wouldn't know. As you can tell, we can't see the chest area in this screenshot because my anonymous benefactor seems to have hidden it under the Enforcer chest piece. I have no idea why, but he probably had a reason. But even if there were a problem with it, one would assume that a graphic artist could probably fix it if there were an actual, supported, legal version of that texture. I'm sure whoever it was that made this picture is very sorry for doing it, but we can't let his or her wrongdoing go to waste, so let's try and use this as a very rough example of what COULD be possible if ever there were a time when the art team weren't too busy with redacted work |
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She does have a big honking sword, which I actually believe you've seen. It's the basic Legacy Broadsword, which ends up being the biggest sword a female has access to, and by a fair margin.|
Originally Posted by Serevus
Ah, Xanta looks complete! Well, almost. Give her a big, horkin' sword and I think she'd be about as close to your original idea as the game could come. She looks much better with that kind of definition.
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Err... I can't post pictures of it because the mysterious stranger didn't include the sword in. If I had to guess, I'd say it wouldn't have made for as good a demonstration of the texture, but I wouldn't really know. I don't know this person, so I'm just guessing. He or she did send me an angry letter lamenting about how he or she wanted to put on the male upper legs texture on the picture, as well, but was unable to for reasons that weren't explained. I would guess technical ones, but I wouldn't know. I would never dream of doing any of this, myself, but I'm kind of sorry that my mysterious benefactor came up short. Oh, well
Here's hoping for the future, though. I honestly feel there is at least SOME leeway that can be had with this line of artwork.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Realistic Undead costume parts (including see through bones/ripcages/etc) Not possible? If possible I vote make an undead themed booster