Quote:
And Im saying that not being able to afford the enhancements the game is BALANCED AROUND is somewhat BROKEN.|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Let me try this again since you don't seem to be getting it.
BEFORE THERE WAS AN OPTION OF THE MARKETS WE COULDN'T AFFORD OUR SOs at 22. They didn't add inventions and markets to fix not being able to afford SOs at 22. That is simply a side benefit. If you won't use it, congratulations you get to enjoy what we had for 3 years before we had inventions and markets when we actually were forced to do without or get someone else of a higher level to bankroll us or do without. So don't come here talking about being forced to use the optional markets to experience game play that wasn't even an option before the markets and inventions existed and think you'll get much sympathy from anyone who played before May 2007. |
Having to use a wholly optional market just to actually afford the bare essentials is, frankly, stupid. Yes, there are ways around, but you shouldnt have to be taking alternate routes for something as basic and built in as enhancements.
So, maybe the Devs see it as WAI. But kindly dont type at me like I'm a simpleton.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
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You are not being forced to use the market or slot SOs. You choose to do both. Blame yourself.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And Im saying that not being able to afford the enhancements the game is BALANCED AROUND is somewhat BROKEN.
Having to use a wholly optional market just to actually afford the bare essentials is, frankly, stupid. Yes, there are ways around, but you shouldnt have to be taking alternate routes for something as basic and built in as enhancements. So, maybe the Devs see it as WAI. But kindly dont type at me like I'm a simpleton. |
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I'm a little confused.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And Im saying that not being able to afford the enhancements the game is BALANCED AROUND is somewhat BROKEN.
|
1. I have fully slotted my character with SOs at 22 by buying them from contacts.
2. This thread is still going?
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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I am sorry if you are taking it that way but the simple facts are you are not getting it.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And Im saying that not being able to afford the enhancements the game is BALANCED AROUND is somewhat BROKEN.
Having to use a wholly optional market just to actually afford the bare essentials is, frankly, stupid. Yes, there are ways around, but you shouldnt have to be taking alternate routes for something as basic and built in as enhancements. So, maybe the Devs see it as WAI. But kindly dont type at me like I'm a simpleton. |
Level 22 is not the game. That is the start of SOs. We could afford SOs by the low 30s but not at 22. There was no leaping from 16% to 33% enhancements for all slots and all powers possible without sugar daddies.
You are the one assigning all the rules to determine the situation is broken.
You are expecting to replace all TOs/DOs with DOs/SOs immediately upon reaching levels 12 and 22 which was never possible playing it on our own. These are not the bare essentials at those levels any more than TOs are at level 1.
You refuse to use the markets to enhance your character because you insist that you should not have to use the new option available only for the past 3 years not the first 3 years.
The game isn't broken. Your understanding or expectations are.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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You didn't do #1 unless you used the markets or you were given gifts, right?
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Originally Posted by Ravenswing
I'm a little confused.
1. I have fully slotted my character with SOs at 22 by buying them from contacts. 2. This thread is still going? |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
The game appears to be geared toward players running multiple characters. Next week we're finally getting the ability to email ourselves inf.
There will be absolutely zero excuses outside of silly RP self-gimping to not have every alt you make be rich enough to afford all the TOs, DOs and SOs that you will need throughout the course of leveling 1 to 50.
EDIT: Except for new players, of course. I met one once... a few months back. She asked me how I got my wings. I explained vet rewards. I explained the market. I explained salvage and recipes. I gave her 10 million inf. (I think) No clue whether she still plays.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I'm afraid you're very right. Most veteran players are rather "spoiled".
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
I am sorry if you are taking it that way but the simple facts are you are not getting it.
Level 22 is not the game. That is the start of SOs. We could afford SOs by the low 30s but not at 22. There was no leaping from 16% to 33% enhancements for all slots and all powers possible without sugar daddies.
You are the one assigning all the rules to determine the situation is broken.
You are expecting to replace all TOs/DOs with DOs/SOs immediately upon reaching levels 12 and 22 which was never possible playing it on our own. These are not the bare essentials at those levels any more than TOs are at level 1.
You refuse to use the markets to enhance your character because you insist that you should not have to use the new option available only for the past 3 years not the first 3 years.
The game isn't broken. Your understanding or expectations are.
I remember the first time I played CoH. I could barely afford regular DOs at level 20. I had no friends, no "sugar daddy", nothing. Just cold, hard influence earned by doing tedious missions around the city. And it was a FUN CHALLENGE! 1 influence MEANT something to me. And I adored my characters cause I worked so hard on them!
Now, it's no longer the same. My game is very routine. Get to 12. Transfer cash. Get DOs. Get to 17. Get DOs. Get to 22. Transfer cash. Get IOs. Forget about enhancements.
And you know what? These days I always get bored of my characters in late 20s. Why? Cause I have no sense of achievement.
But this is a rather unrelated tangent, and this doesn't justify that a little tweaking needs to be done (in my opinion) to enhance pre-Stamina "grind".
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I hope you got her soul in trade Mr. Bubba.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
EDIT: Except for new players, of course. I met one once... a few months back. She asked me how I got my wings. I explained vet rewards. I explained the market. I explained salvage and recipes. I gave her 10 million inf. (I think) No clue whether she still plays.
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The interesting thing about our email next week is we can email the moon in inf but only 1 item per email.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
The game appears to be geared toward players running multiple characters. Next week we're finally getting the ability to email ourselves inf.
There will be absolutely zero excuses outside of silly RP self-gimping to not have every alt you make be rich enough to afford all the TOs, DOs and SOs that you will need throughout the course of leveling 1 to 50. EDIT: Except for new players, of course. I met one once... a few months back. She asked me how I got my wings. I explained vet rewards. I explained the market. I explained salvage and recipes. I gave her 10 million inf. (I think) No clue whether she still plays. |
I cannot wrap my mind around what the purpose in that limitation is other than to prevent item storage/hoarding since we will be limited to holding 20 such emails per account. So perhaps that is the only reason. A constraint on inventions but nothing else.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Yup, just a hoarding block.
We'll still be lacking offline SG/VG invites and demotions/promotions, but we're almost to the point where I want this game to be.
Be well, people of CoH.
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And self starting TFs, you old soloist you?
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Yup, just a hoarding block.
We'll still be lacking offline SG/VG invites and demotions/promotions, but we're almost to the point where I want this game to be. |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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I gave up on that desire. I accepted the rationalization that there are a lot of stupid people in the world that would whine up a storm if they were allowed to start something designed for a team that they could not complete because of that design even if a huge neon sign flashed on the screen stating "THIS CONTENT IS MEANT FOR A TEAM. YOU SHOULD HAVE ONE."
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
And self starting TFs, you old soloist you?
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Be well, people of CoH.
My thought on this whole thing, which is not likely to be implementable even remotely, is that the way endurance currently works makes no sense within the framework of the game. When you start out you have 100 edurance points. These act as a percentage of a total. Aside from gaining items such as accolades or IO sets, you have those same 100 endurance points at level 50.
That really makes no sense. They're not endurance points. They're a % of being completely rested. Yet you spend points on powers which remain static. If I've had a power for 30 levels, shouldn't I be better at using it? Not only should that power do more damage, but I should be much more efficient in its use. If the power costs me 5 points at level 1, shouldn't it maybe cost me 3 at level 30? 2 at level 50? This would make it important for people to be careful about when they select different powers. The earlier you take those end-heavy powers, the harder it is on you at first but the lower they'll cost later on.
Alternatively, if the endurance cost of a power doesn't change, then shouldn't we be getting more endurance to spend? That would also show how we're getting more efficient in our power use. We do more damage, the enemies do more damage, so we get more hit points. That's "health". Health could just as well be shown as a % of total, too, but it's not because it doesn't make sense given the way the game works. The same is no less true of endurance. It doesn't make sense to have it as a % of total.
By changing endurance to actually make sense within the framework of the game, it would really solve all these other questions altogether. Rest, recovery, Stamina, etc. would all fit within the framework in exactly the same way the health issues currently do. You don't hear anyone complaining about regeneration, do you? I know I don't. Why? Because as you go up in level you get more health points. Lower level attacks do less damage relative to the total number of points you have, as befits a more healthy hero/villain. You've learned how to take more damage by going up in levels. It's foolishly illogical to think of endurance in any other way.
</rant>
--If we can have huge sig images, why can we have only five lines of text?
--...faceplanting like a Defender pulling an AV (Nalrok_AthZim)
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...
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Hmmm...makes me think...|
Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
My thought on this whole thing, which is not likely to be implementable even remotely, is that the way endurance currently works makes no sense within the framework of the game. When you start out you have 100 edurance points. These act as a percentage of a total. Aside from gaining items such as accolades or IO sets, you have those same 100 endurance points at level 50.
That really makes no sense. They're not endurance points. They're a % of being completely rested. Yet you spend points on powers which remain static. If I've had a power for 30 levels, shouldn't I be better at using it? Not only should that power do more damage, but I should be much more efficient in its use. If the power costs me 5 points at level 1, shouldn't it maybe cost me 3 at level 30? 2 at level 50? This would make it important for people to be careful about when they select different powers. The earlier you take those end-heavy powers, the harder it is on you at first but the lower they'll cost later on. Alternatively, if the endurance cost of a power doesn't change, then shouldn't we be getting more endurance to spend? That would also show how we're getting more efficient in our power use. We do more damage, the enemies do more damage, so we get more hit points. That's "health". Health could just as well be shown as a % of total, too, but it's not because it doesn't make sense given the way the game works. The same is no less true of endurance. It doesn't make sense to have it as a % of total. By changing endurance to actually make sense within the framework of the game, it would really solve all these other questions altogether. Rest, recovery, Stamina, etc. would all fit within the framework in exactly the same way the health issues currently do. You don't hear anyone complaining about regeneration, do you? I know I don't. Why? Because as you go up in level you get more health points. Lower level attacks do less damage relative to the total number of points you have, as befits a more healthy hero/villain. You've learned how to take more damage by going up in levels. It's foolishly illogical to think of endurance in any other way. </rant> |
Swift: Does what it does now AND gives +5 END
Hurdle: Same as Swift
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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To add on to this...to help people have the option of skipping Stamina...|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Hmmm...makes me think...
Swift: Does what it does now AND gives +5 END Hurdle: Same as Swift |
Why not change the worthless (admittedly they're worthless imo) minor mez resistances (like 2% immobilize resistance in melee sets), and the debt protection set bonuses, and replace them with more +END bonuses?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
That wouldn't work for people who don't want to use the optional markets and inventions but I'd certainly like it.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
To add on to this...to help people have the option of skipping Stamina...
Why not change the worthless (admittedly they're worthless imo) minor mez resistances (like 2% immobilize resistance in melee sets), and the debt protection set bonuses, and replace them with more +END bonuses? |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Ah, this never gets old. Is it possible to run MA/SR without stamina? Well, yes and no:|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Beleive me, Brand, I've taken all possibles into consideration.
And frankly, before 3 SO slotted Stamina, MA/SR is the endurance wh0re from hell. Yes, it does high damage. But it brains end like no other combo I've played. Give it a shot, and see if I really am doing something stupidly wrong. |
MA/SR, no stamina vs two Death Mages
MA/SR, no stamina, deliberately trying to run out of endurance in Portal courtyard
That MA/SR build has all the toggles, continuously runs combat jumping, and in the second video runs sprint as well, and still has great offense (for its time - its basically ED soft-capped on damage on all attacks). And it uses Aid Self, because its running around with only 34% defense (which, in I8, was better than average for SR).
On the one hand, these are circa I8ish vids pre-inventions. That means not just no stamina, but no recovery IOs of any kind. And only 30-something defense.
On the other hand, the build does have more HOs than ... well, I won't go there.
On the third hand, any invention build even with common IOs could probably get close to this, and with the cheap set IOs can probably surpass what HOs could do then. This build would cost nothing to make today, and could be exceeded by a wide margin with pocket change.
On the fourth hand, it is a level 50 build. And it does, eventually, run out of endurance.
On the prehensile tail, this is higher performance than the game is balanced for, and probably higher performance than the average MA/SR player has today, even with much better options at their disposal *and* stamina.
Basically, I made these videos a few years back when the whole "everyone needs stamina" thing was a common forum occurance. The videos are not intended to show that it *is* or *is not* necessary, because "necessary" is a relative term. I made them to show what is *possible* with the powerset combination many think is among the worst endurance burn offenders. If those videos are "reasonable" performance, I don't think you need stamina (at least past the 20s when SOs become available and you can slot heavily for endred, or easy-to-get but better-than-SO invention sets). If you *need* far better performance than you probably *need* stamina as well.
The larger point is that it seems whenever people talk about the need for stamina, or endurance management in general, they are not speaking within the same context. What is "underpowered and unacceptable" to one player is often "wow, I didn't even know you could do even that" to another player. Its rare when anyone that discusses or analyzes the endurance management situation in the game tries to illustrate what they mean by "acceptable" and "unacceptable" performance, except in small corner cases. I was trying to see where people fall in the "this is acceptable/this is unacceptable" range with an objective data point or two (or three).
You know, I actually miss that build. I made it just for fun to test the theory, and ended up playing it well past I9 even when better slotting options became available (I didn't change the build until I think I11 on live, although I did have lots of better builds on test).
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
On the one hand...
On the other hand... On the third hand... On the fourth hand... On the prehensile tail... |
SPIDERMONKEY!
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I almost squeaked. That thing is scary!
Originally Posted by LISAR
SPIDERMONKEY!
But he's cute to!
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Well if you feel it is wrong and you object to having to do it, cancel your account and find another MMO that allows you to be able to buy the best gear as soon as you can use it. (without a suggar daddy or transfering money or items) For example there is ..... um.....um.... well there is .......no wait, there has to be one out there.....
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Being forced to use an 'optional' feature of the game to even slot up on standard enhancements strikes me as 'wrong' frankly. And its something I object to having to do.
For the most part, and come I17 will be the norm, I ferry inf from my bank char blueside and whoevers richest at the time redside. |
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While yes you do have the same number of endurance points at 1 vs 50, you also have the option to slot end redux. The enhancemnts that you can get keep getting better up to level 50. So as long as you make the choice to slot an end redux in your attacks, those attacks will cost you less and less as you level. If you decide to not slot end redux then it is your own damn fault you are always out of breath.
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Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
My thought on this whole thing, which is not likely to be implementable even remotely, is that the way endurance currently works makes no sense within the framework of the game. When you start out you have 100 edurance points. These act as a percentage of a total. Aside from gaining items such as accolades or IO sets, you have those same 100 endurance points at level 50.
That really makes no sense. They're not endurance points. They're a % of being completely rested. Yet you spend points on powers which remain static. If I've had a power for 30 levels, shouldn't I be better at using it? Not only should that power do more damage, but I should be much more efficient in its use. If the power costs me 5 points at level 1, shouldn't it maybe cost me 3 at level 30? 2 at level 50? This would make it important for people to be careful about when they select different powers. The earlier you take those end-heavy powers, the harder it is on you at first but the lower they'll cost later on. Alternatively, if the endurance cost of a power doesn't change, then shouldn't we be getting more endurance to spend? That would also show how we're getting more efficient in our power use. We do more damage, the enemies do more damage, so we get more hit points. That's "health". Health could just as well be shown as a % of total, too, but it's not because it doesn't make sense given the way the game works. The same is no less true of endurance. It doesn't make sense to have it as a % of total. By changing endurance to actually make sense within the framework of the game, it would really solve all these other questions altogether. Rest, recovery, Stamina, etc. would all fit within the framework in exactly the same way the health issues currently do. You don't hear anyone complaining about regeneration, do you? I know I don't. Why? Because as you go up in level you get more health points. Lower level attacks do less damage relative to the total number of points you have, as befits a more healthy hero/villain. You've learned how to take more damage by going up in levels. It's foolishly illogical to think of endurance in any other way. </rant> |
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Techbot, there are a couple of points I think I need to address here, in both directions, as it were.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And Im saying that not being able to afford the enhancements the game is BALANCED AROUND is somewhat BROKEN.
|
1. I keep forgetting you play on the EU servers (you do, right?), and I don't know if we share a Market with you, guys. If we don't, then I can see how that would suck big time. If we DO, however, you have options.
2. What was promised was that the game would not be rebalanced with the expectation that you would have many Inventions. However, as Training and DO drops were removed from the upper-level game, the economy was clearly redesigned with use of the Market in mind. If you do not use the Market AT ALL, you're screwed. I don't mean that as an insult, you really are behind the 8-ball. You don't have to "play the market," as it were. Just drop by occasionally and see what you can sell there. A LOT of Rare invention pieces will go for around a million in the Market (the one I have access to, at least), and a single one of those is enough for DOs, while a couple will get you SOs.
3. You're operating under the assumption that buying a full set of SOs is a given right that the game should provide us with, and not being able to is a step down from what the game was before Inventions. This is not true. Before Inventions, very few of us could afford a full set of SOs at 22. When I hit 22, I could buy MAYBE a third of the enhancements I needed, if that. I could MAYBE buy a full set of them before 27, but this wasn't common. I'd have to intentionally get a lot of debt to avoid my enhancements expiring before I could even fully slot everything. It wasn't until 32 that we could actually afford to buy a full set right out the gate, and from then on it was fairly easy.
In conclusion: You can use the Market with practically no effort involved and almost no time cost above travel time. Like I said, it's as simple as looking at the last five bids and the bidders to sellers ratio. Only sell things that went for a lot the last five times and have more bidders than sellers, and you'll be in the money. That is, provided you have access to the NA side of things. If our Markets are not unified, then I don't know.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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* ^This basically. You're not really supposed to be SOed out at the moment you hit 22, you're supposed to gradually fit them in.|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
I am sorry if you are taking it that way but the simple facts are you are not getting it.
Level 22 is not the game. That is the start of SOs. We could afford SOs by the low 30s but not at 22. There was no leaping from 16% to 33% enhancements for all slots and all powers possible without sugar daddies. You are the one assigning all the rules to determine the situation is broken. You are expecting to replace all TOs/DOs with DOs/SOs immediately upon reaching levels 12 and 22 which was never possible playing it on our own. These are not the bare essentials at those levels any more than TOs are at level 1. You refuse to use the markets to enhance your character because you insist that you should not have to use the new option available only for the past 3 years not the first 3 years. The game isn't broken. Your understanding or expectations are. |
Nowadays it's ridiculously easy to do so thanks to various methods, but it's still not the expected norm.
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| 1. I keep forgetting you play on the EU servers (you do, right?), and I don't know if we share a Market with you, guys. If we don't, then I can see how that would suck big time. If we DO, however, you have options. |
I don't understand TBAs points at all really. On one hand they WANT IT NAO in regards to SOs but on the other they're not willing to go through the easy steps in order to achieve it. It takes about 4 mins marketing at the start and end of a play sessions to set yourself up to make half a million or so. That's ignoring selling your own drops altogether and just bidding low on suitable level 50 recipies at the end of one session and vendoring them at the start of the next.
If you've some objection to that for whatever reason my alternative (or parallel) was to run some fun MA intro arcs, convert the tickets into Bronze Rolls and sell them. Hell you could just use tickets to buy the DOs/SOs in question if you really are allergic to the market (although I'm pretty sure TBA uses IOs extensively at the end game going on other posts).
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Why not change the worthless (admittedly they're worthless imo) minor mez resistances (like 2% immobilize resistance in melee sets), and the debt protection set bonuses, and replace them with more +END bonuses? |
*
For the most part, and come I17 will be the norm, I ferry inf from my bank char blueside and whoevers richest at the time redside.
BEFORE THERE WAS AN OPTION OF THE MARKETS WE COULDN'T AFFORD OUR SOs at 22.
They didn't add inventions and markets to fix not being able to afford SOs at 22. That is simply a side benefit. If you won't use it, congratulations you get to enjoy what we had for 3 years before we had inventions and markets when we actually were forced to do without or get someone else of a higher level to bankroll us or do without.
So don't come here talking about being forced to use the optional markets to experience game play that wasn't even an option before the markets and inventions existed and think you'll get much sympathy from anyone who played before May 2007.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.