A New Take on Fitness

To be honest, that's kind of his point, and in this I agree with him completely - THAT is annoying busywork that even I'm not going to bother with. Flipping Inventions, grinding tickets, playing the Market, all of that might seem easy to you, but to me it's doing the dishes - it's a chore I don't want to have to do.

But at the same time, you DON'T have to do that. Just selling your own drops at the Market is more than sufficient. Even as the Goat suggested, just selling everything for, like 100, is going to earn you a serious amount of cash. The point is to make money off the Market the same way you make it off the vendors - show up, sell things, leave. THAT is not a lot of work, nor does it really need any specific knowledge. Just sell whatever sells and vendor everything else.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Well, for generic recipes, i seem to always sell them for less at WW than I would at a vendor, when it comes to generic IO recipes.

And alot of low level recipes don't sell well at all.

HOWEVER...decent drop on the run to 50, can more than likely pay for your other toons SOs for quite awhile. I have a few SG members who use only generic IOs they buy at WW (already crafted) or SOs.

When they've gotten a really nice drop, they asked me if I wanted it. I told them I couldn't give them more than 50mil, for it (its was a high priced purple). They were going to sell it to me anyways, but I told them no.

Told them to take it to market, put it up for sale at 200mil. They did, they got 300+. They're now set for SOs or Generic IOs on a majority of toons, if they decide to keep them on generics/SOs.

This works just as well for anyone else.

Don't have that UBER recipe? You still get those nice rare salvage. This is what you sell to get all the SOs you want.

True, some things just don't sell, but knowing what sells isn't important. By and large, common recipes do not sell well and uncommon and rare ones sell well only SOMETIMES. Common salvage sells well hero-side, but not villain-side with a few exceptions, and uncommon salvage rarely sells well. Rare salvage almost always sells well, however.

But you don't need to know any of that. Just know what things sell to at the Vendors. Common salvage sells for 250, uncommon for 1000, rare for 5000. Common recipes start out low, but get very expensive in the upper levels. I don't actually know HOW expensive, but since they never sell well on the Market, I don't really care. Uncommon and Rare recipes don't sell too well to vendors practically ever, but I'll generally list them for 5000, and generally when it looks like they either won't spend ages in my transaction inventory or will give me a lot of money for the wait. Baiscally, a recipe needs to either have many (or, really, ANY) bidders or look like it's been going for a lot of INF, which is basically 50 000+.

The biggest problem with selling on the Market, though, isn't not selling at a profit, it's clogging up your transaction inventory. If you don't want to do any research, then basically sell Salvage for 250, 1000 and 5000 respectively, sell any Set recipes for 5000 and just take back anything that doesn't sell by the time you're done going through your transactions. Anything that sells will usually give you a pretty good profit, and if you list low, you won't lose much in listing fees.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Pretty much nailed it, Sam. And I'd thank people kindly for not lumping me in with the 'Want it nao!' crowd. I only object to things that I can look at objectively and see a flaw, however slight with. In my opinion (note, Opinion. I never said it was fact, and if I did 'It was late, I was tired' comes into it) the TO-DO-SO system is a bit dated. It still works, dont get me wrong, but when, by the time you've saved up enough to get lvl 25 SOs you have since leveled up to the point of getting level 30 SOs (I kid you not. Without transfering inf, I've run into this problem a LOT)

And, yes, I will be making use of I17s inf mailing feature. So, yes, that will solve that problem.
But I get somewhat narked when there are comments that insinuate that Im basically b*tching about something.




Thats the job of my friends, thanks

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Like spit I do. I have one, count them ONE character using Invention Sets, and thats Alpha. I have a few level 40s who are running vanilla IOs, but only because I got sick of having to replace SOs all the time, and because I had the inf to afford it at the time, or had a few recipes to spare.
For the most part, I dont slot until 22, then slot SOs. And then last on them until lvl 47. I dont feel an over-riding need to slot IOs, although its a nice add-on at 50. The game is balanced around SOs, and I can manage just great on them. Its when, trough regular play, I find it hard to get the inf to slot these that I suspect something is slightly skewed with the system. Of course, I may well be wrong. Again, its my opinion.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I don't think I mentioning "grinding" tickets at all. I just run solo MA story arcs as an alternative levelling path, roll the proceeds as either Bronze rolls or common salvage and sell em. No grind involved (of course you may have a different definition to "grind" than me).


I don't flip inventions either, just low bid on common ios and vendor the purchases as part of my "go to Market and sell salvage" trips I do at the end of every playsession anyway. *No knowledge needed (other than the ability to set the filter to "50-50, For Sale Only") and the ability to read the price the last 5 went for.


Last time redside I did need to do that around level 20 because selling dropped salvage for 5 apiece hadn't returned enough for me (damn you RNG).

I don't think its dated, exactly. I think it was always broken that they expire. I know why they expire: because its gear, and in an MMO gear has to wear out, expire, break, or otherwise force you to buy better gear. But if you ignore that presumption, there's actually no reason for enhancements to expire in City of Heroes.

However, if the devs were to wipe them out and replace them with common IOs, I wouldn't complain.

This is what I remember as well.

Nor would I. Tbh, the further away we can move from 'gear' base MMOs the better. IOs work out fine but, again, they don't expire.
I can see arguements for why they do. Inf sinks, etc. Doesn't mean I agree with them.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Well, obviously that's what they'll say, and it IS what they said. Do you honestly see them coming out and saying "Well, now that we have this Market thing, we feel you no longer need the income because you'll obviously be using the Market from now on." That'd have caused a shitstorm big enough to turn a small moon into a swirling toilet.

The fact of the matter is that the Market was intended to replace the lost revenue to the removed enhancements (and it did), that instantly shot the idea that you'd be able to make money WITHOUT the Market in the foot. You're not gonna', and I think that thread is pretty good evidence for it.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Huh... Didn't you just complain about having to use an optional element of the game, such as the Market and Inventions? If they just dropped SOs altogether, THAT IS ALL THAT WILL BE LEFT! Think about that very carefully before you support these ideas.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I never said that.
I would vote for making enhancements not decay. Anything to stop the mundane re-slot every five levels just to function at base levels.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Having run the numbers I'm amazed that Stamina actually does anything.

Attack powers generally cost 1 endurance/second of recharge, defensive toggles take .25 end/s, offensive take .5end/s generally.

Your base recovery is about 2 end/s and stamina can get you another 1.

(why is MA/SR such a hog? The initial MA attacks are "fast recharging" and take about 1.25 end/s, and SR has a natural +recharge passive that ups the ante even more)

I guess there's just enough time between combats for that to make a difference, even after the point when there are three or more powers in your attack chain.

If we're looking for a revamp and not just slowly increasing natural recovery so it's at unslotted Stamina level by 20 (to reflect other parameters like base ranged/melee damage multiplier moving to their "natural levels" by 20) then here's my idea: Endurance as desperation gauge.

Powers recharge twice. Once to be usable at all, a second time to be "free". Before their second recharge, you can spend endurance to use them, based on a power's parameters and how much time is left in the second charge. (some powers like blaster nukes always cost endurance to use and never have a second charge)

Toggles consume endurance normally. At zero, offensive toggles shut off and defensive toggles suppress until there's some amount of endurance restored to the bar.

I've always thought of Endurance as a desperation bar anyway -- if most of the time you're not mashing powers as fast as they come back, when the situation demands it you can bleed the blue bar dry by going all-out.

How so? You dont have to sell those recipes and salvage at WW/BM. You can just go to an NPC store and sell them.

For sweet f all, yes. Certainly not enough to reliably finance a character until around the 40s. Trust me, I've been playing that way for a good few years now.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

What you can do and what the design assumed you would do are often not the same thing.

This is the reason I have negative sympathy for our modern-day poor criers.

You absolutely can 'work' the market and make inf beyond the dreams of avarice, but that simply isn't necessary for any but the most extreme high performance builds.

Players in our enlightened modern age can get filthy rich using the market like a vendor- stop in when your inventory fills up, drop everything in for some token amount and collect your $$$$.

The undesirable residue you can delete or vendor, as you wish.

I had time for one mission on a lowbie last night, ran it, got a few pieces of common salvage and made over 100k listing them for 1. No need for "good drops" or market savvy, just unexceptional salvage.

Players who cry poor while ignoring the massive profit potential the market has for even the most casual of 'casual gamers' simply can't be taken seriously.

Well, that doesn't quite work as you think it would, at least not without a good deal of additional explanation. The problem is that while Inventions do not degrade, they also scale. SOs do not. So if they don't run out, what level do you set them to be constantly? Even con? Not good enough. +3 is where I want their performance to be, and with a bit of expenditure, I can typically keep them at that level, or close to it. Upgrading them to + and ++ as those become available will keep them your level or above almost constantly, and since I can usually spare the cash, I'd rather have performance over convenience.

On the flip side, if you set them at +3 value, then you basically screw over Inventions almost entirely, because Inventions don't break even with +3 SOs until the 40s. And then, even if you DO fix them at that level, which level's costs do you use for their purchase? I assume we'd just drop the notion of SO levels entirely? Why ever need to buy more than one set, then? SOs are a decent inf sink, and if you never need to upgrade them, then that's not very good for the economy. Even Inventions you CAN upgrade for some gain. set-level SOs you just can't. Back to price - Inventions are expensive. More expensive than SOs, in fact, if you don't have the Inventions badges. JUST the cost of making a level 50 Common is half a million. A SO is something like 30 000.

It's not just a simple matter of "make it so," I'm afraid. There's much to figure out before committing to something like that.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Techbot says it well. You CAN sell Inventions-related paraphernalia to the vendors, but you get dick for it in return. Common recipes CAN be pretty expensive, but they don't become expensive until the late 30s to early 40s. Before that, they aren't worth much. All salvage is dirt cheap to the vendors, and Set recipes are even CHEAPER than they should be. And you know why? As a direct incentive to sell them on the Market. On the one hand, that's good, because it ensures supply. On the other hand, that's bad, because you depend on demand.

Easy example: A piece of rare salvage sold to the vendors brings me 5000 inf. A piece of rare salvage sold to the Market will almost always bring me 70 000 - 150 000 basically at any point after level 15 or so. A couple of days ago, I got a drop from just running missions, which I listed for 5000 and sold for 20 million. I don't know what recipe it was, but it was not unique or purple. Just a regular set drop that didn't look at all remarkable. That would have sold for MAYBE 50 000 at the vendor.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Oh I know this.

My point was to those saying you have to play the market. About the loss of TO/DO drops in higher levels.

Really, what did I do with TO/DO drops once I could slot SOs, before IO sets? I sold them.

I don't recall TO/DO's selling for all that much, at least as much as the generic recipes that drop.

And once you hit 50...getting generic lvl 50 recipes and just selling them to the vendor can make enough to finance another toon with SOs through out their carreer.

only if you hate money.

Think that was the Devs way of saying "Sell it at WW if you don't want it!"?

Well, I don't tend to see my generic IO recipes at WW, when I'm looking for influence, because I tend to be selling lots of other stuff, that if I wanted to make more than Id sell the generic recipe for, they last longer in my WW slots.