A New Take on Fitness

They give us the tools to trivialize in combat endurance management with IOs and Insps.

There are three stages while solo with endurance management:

1: 1-21 The boring suck-fest stages.
2: 22-whenever you start utilizing IOs
3: Fully IOed

There is NO way to avoid running out of endurance mid-combat before 22 unless you either alt-tab to internet surf between spawns or get on a team with some player that has an endurance buff. Forget insps, they run out, and hell yes I use them. My insp tray on lowbies is never full.

Stating that it's my failure is idiotic and laughable, Sam. It's the way the game is designed and it's a poor design. Stamina should not be as good as it is and base recovery isn't as good as it should be.

Base VEAT recovery is closer to where base should be for everyone.

This absolute limit of resources concept is also silly even while true. I have an absolute limit of 110 endurance once I have the accolades, correct? That limit has no meaning when I'm recovering end faster than I can burn it while running 7 toggles and using a non-stop attack chain.

Which bring me right back to the first point:

That disparity between 1-21 and 50 fully IOed is insane. It makes creating new characters a hassle instead of something enjoyable.

My choice? Buff base recovery, nerf stamina. Even out the ride.

As long as I retain the same recovery combined at 50 that I have now, I'd like this change.

Oh, and your End can go higher with IOs. I think my warshade is at 114 but I need to double check that.

Please do. I wasn't aware of any IO that increased the the total endurance on a character.

There're at least 2 I can think of. Impervium Armor boosts it 2.25 with 4 enhancements and one bumps it 1.8 (weird number) but I cannot recall which. Of course I couldn't work in more than 2 4-sets of the Imp Armor on him (Eclipse and Black Dwarf).

I'll return at lunch with the name of the 1.8 set I have on him.

There are a decent amount of set bonuses that do.

Them's it. I probably have some Gift of the Ancients in Shadow Cloak.

I also remembered we get +4 End for the Duelist day job power though it is only temporary and needs recharging which I need to remember to do for my shade.

I'm all for ditching the recharge on rest.

It seems to me a longer activation (ala the Pocket D Teleporter maybe) or a longer 'rest' time would be able to keep it from being something to use thoughtlessly.

but at the lower levels, it would be nice if we could pop it off between spawns- there are certainly enough characters out there that would benefit.

Stalkers aren't scrappers, they keep a few toggles active, and AS enemies. Not exactly an end heavy playstyle.

DM/Fire has two end recovery powers, one on each set.

Defenders get vigilance, being an empath on top of that, you'll have RA.

Making it inherent *wouldn't* ruin the system. I dunno about you guys, but stamina isn't anywhere near the perma solution to end problems that some seem to make it sound like. I still run out of endurance. There are many AT's that have end heavy toggles, and only careful playing and smart slotting will guard against end crashing, even with stamina 3 slotted.

Sure, if you want to spit in the face of IO sets, ignore all the set bonuses and 3 slot end reductions, you're more than free to. Seems kinda silly though, with all the impressive things you can do with the bonuses (Perma PA comes to mind).

My story is close to yours also with my Ice/Psi dom. Runs artic air, CJ and assault. Ran normal content arcs and AE. Slotted with IOs I picked up from cheap and drops. Sold the rest. I am sitting at lvl 34 with about 80 mill in the bank, just putting up stuff for 100 inf.

I think they could accomplish the same thing without forcing players to change anything with their builds, by adjusting the power cost curve. Lower costs early on would accomplish the same thing.

...

What? I mean... What? Stating that it's... What? Where did I even imply... What? What? I keep reading that quote over and over again, and I just don't get it. What, did you read the word "failure" and take offence or something?

All that was meant to say is that the game is designed to limit your endurance and, yes, cause you to run out. This is not an aberrant, unintended side effect of imbalance concerns, it's how it's intended to play. Running out of endurance is no less unintended than running out of health is. You CANNOT claim that being ever at all being able to run out of health and die is a failing of the system and that a properly balanced one should never allow this to happen. The same holds true for endurance. If the baseline performance was such that endurance never ran the risk of running out, then that system would be poorly balanced, at best having a redundant, meaningless stat.

When I say "it's your failure," I don't mean to say you screwed up, I mean to say that you came upon your own limitation. The system didn't bug out and put you in a situation where your endurance wasn't supposed to run out. If you don't want to ever run out of endurance, you have the tools to do so, at a cost. If you choose to do that, then that's fine, apparently. The developers have never hinted at this being a pressing concern. If you don't choose to do so, like I choose not to, then you deal with endurance in other ways, including occasionally running out. Again, this is not a sing of the game being bugged or poorly-conceived, it's a consequence of player's choices.

As far as it being impossible to not run out of endurance mid-fight pre-22, that's false on its face unless you want to quantify your statement or elaborate on circumstances. It's very much possibly, it just may not be possible in the ways you prefer to play. That's not a bad thing, mind you, but it still comes down to player preference.

Basically: The game is designed such that endurance should always run the risk of running out. If your endurance runs out, that's not a sign of bad design.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

As far as I'm aware, our endurance pool remaining stating is done on purpose. It's to give us a maximum allowed "budget," so to speak. This both determines how many toggles we can run and how fast we can attack, as well as requiring us to balance both. You CAN run a lot of toggles all at once, but you'll kill your end FAST once you start attacking. Inversely, running fewer toggles means you can attack a lot more, but get less toggle benefit. Being able to both run lots of toggles AND attack a lot sounds... Well, broken to me, at least based on how the system appears to be balanced.

Let me pose the question in the opposite direction and see where this gets us: What is the point of having an endurance bar AT ALL? What is the whole system of cost, drain and recovery supposed to accomplish? What is it supposed to mean? Because if we let most players have enough endurance for most things most of the time, then endurance becomes meaningless in most cases. Unless we want to start discussing its outright removal from the game, we need to keep in mind that it has to have SOME point in existence.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Heh, this is a sentiment I can fully get behind

By the way, would you like me to have a look at the MA/SR numbers and see if I can't help you out? I haven't done numbers for those yet (haven't had reason to) and I wouldn't want to do it just for the sport of it, but if I can help, let me know. Via PM, if need be.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

it would at the very least necessitate re-balancing a sizable number of powers and ATs. Altering one of the founding assumptions of balance in the game would be a huge job.

IMHO it isn't necessary given the wide range of options we've been given over the years to mitigate the perceived problem.

Heh, you can do. I think it won't change the simple fact; MA/SR is a wh0re before lvl 22. Now I'm there, I think I'll find it much more enjoyable.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I haven't been enjoying it in the 23-37 range yet either.

Yes, yes, we could all run away mid-fight or count to 10 between attacks. The first isn't any fun and the second will get us killed. Not my cup of tea.

Yes, we could drop our difficulty to -1/x1 no bosses no avs. Also not fun. And we'd still have to rest (or stand there not being able to rest) every other spawn.


You're the one that capitalized "your."

It and the following statements annoyed me because to avoid "MY" horrific failure of running out of endurance during a fight my choices are:

Inspiration use. Absolutely. I use the hell out of them. Every time I have three of something else they become a blue.

Rest. That's been covered quite well in this thread. It appears we all agree that having the recharge time removed would please a great many of us.

Running away due to lack of end to attack with. No. I'll use brawl until enough end comes back up for another attack.

That's it. 3 options. None of which are very good.

I understand WHY endurance is in the game, Sam. For me and the way I build my characters, it's an extreme nuisance from 1 to 21 and a non-issue after that. I'd like to see a less binary view on it.

I hope that last bit there answers your question. We have the tools to make endurance usage meaningless AFTER a certain point. Before that, it's as much a nuisance game balance element as the time sink of hero side contacts sending you zone hopping every other mission. The saw the error of their ways when they made CoV and there vastle less zone hopping on that side.

I would like, someday, for the devs to correct both the 1-21 sucks due to weak enhancements and a lack of stamina just as much as I'd like to see hero side contacts start keeping you in their own zones.

They go get rid of TOs and DOs completely and let us have SOs at level 1. That right there would probably be enough to fix the end hassles, but then they'd have to go through and ramp up all the 1-21 enemy groups. We all know that this would probably be considered too much work.

And they would probably end up bringing it back to us running out of endurance during the fights if it is part of their balance equation.

I still really like your idea of upping our base recovery and reducing Stamina to try to even out the differences. Plus no recharge on rest. I would at least like to see it attempted to see how well it plays out on testing.

I challenge the truth of the above statement, because it contradicts what I do on a daily basis practically every time I log into the game. That's what annoys me about these arguments - the constant insistence that you CANNOT get through a fight on a single endurance bar unless you have Stamina. You very much can, and without waiting between attacks, running away, using inspirations or dropping your difficulty.

Yes, I do mean pre-20. I will grant you that some characters have an easier time, and no, I don't mean Willpower or Regeneration. I played a Dark/Dark through to the 20s just fine without sucking wind much at all. Hell, I died more often than I ran out of endurance, and that's saying something with Dark Armour. And that's on the old Tenacious. Currently doable easily on the equivalent +0x2 +bosses -AVs. It's doable and I've done it, many times over. If you want, I can run down the list of characters I've done it with, but I doubt anyone really cares.

Endurance issues pre-20 exist. Endurance issues pre-20 ARE NOT crippling. Endurance issues pre-20 may be annoying, but that's an entirely different argument altogether, and it does that argument no good to exaggerate it.


I capitalised "your" merely to explain that insufficient endurance is intended and build into the system. Running out of endurance means the system works (well or not is debatable) and it falls on you to mitigate it, not on the system to fix it. We can argue about how much of a problem endurance should be, but if we start suggesting that endurance should NOT be a problem and that the game itself should take care of our endurance problems, then we should start discussing the removal of the subsystem in its entirety, because that's more or less its entire point in existence.

Not wishing to get into the argument of zone travel (yet another of my unpopular opinions), doesn't it strike you as unintended to be able to completely trivialise and marginalise endurance management? Or do you see that as a benefit worth its cost? Honest question here.

I wouldn't object to easier endurance management. The problem, as Castle used to lament, is Stamina itself. As you yourself have pointed out in the past, there is no build that doesn't benefit from Stamina, and there's almost no such instance where more recovery cannot help. It doesn't matter what you do to low-level or high-level endurance management, people are already too conditioned to take Stamina for that to matter. The mere fact that I know people who take Quick Recovery, Stamina, Conserve Power, do massive endurance slotting and STILL complain that their endurance bar so much as twitched tells me enough about that.

I guess I could go with your suggestion of taking from Stamina and dropping into base recovery. That would make its impact less significant and more in line with what it SHOULD be, as well as ease things up in the game.

But...

What about Quick Recovery? What about Recovery Aura? What about Dark Consumption? Or all the various endurance management Inventions? A lot of powers in the game are tied to base recovery, and boosting that would boost them, as well. Are you prepared to see them drop in percentage, as well? I would, but I'm not exactly objective in this case. Moreover, are you willing to see endurance become MORE of a problem at the exchange of it being less of one in the lower levels? Because these things will come up if and when this is actually considered.

Can't say I'd complain if they did, but here's the flip side - progress. I realise it sucks to start out weak, and maybe I'm biassed in this regard, but I enjoy being weaker in the lower levels, with weaker powers and weaker enhancements. Not because I enjoy being weak so much so as because getting stronger is a tangible change that actually makes me feel myself progressing through the game. Given how many things scale and how much everything feels the same no matter how high up you go, the switchover between enhancement types is a big part of the levelling experience.

Again, if they let me use SOs from level one, but I can't say I would support the change overtly.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

And I would then have to insist on you explaining how you're slotting this character that you're soloing with and how long it takes to you to get through a base difficulty paper/scanner mission.

You've already admitted that a character without stamina is less efficient than one with it, so we can take from this that I'm building in a way that is gaining something for being less end efficient than yours.

Ahh, that explains that.

That's precisely what we are arguing about. My stance on this can be repeated now: Endurance management is far too easy after 22 and far too much of a pain in the *** before hand.

Yes, I would expect and accept a drop in ALL endurance recovery powers if the base was increased. I agree with everyone in this thread that have stated as long as the end result is the same recovery at 50 that we have now, then all would be well with me. Do I actually expect this to happen? Nope.

Do I think it more likely that we'd get something similar to the beginner's luck tohit buff we get but for endurance as Lemur Lad mentioned? Yup. Would I be happy with that as well? Absolutely.

On the Dark/Dark I died a lot because Dark's shields are too weak, and the pre-20 game doesn't give me access to Dark Regeneration or any of the strong control powers. It's really not a good combo to level out of the teens with. That said, even with three shields going, I had little problem with endurance.

As well, the disagreement here is a question of semantics. You ask me how fast I can run through a mission, highlighting the problem as you see it, and the one I agreed to - recovery between fights. You run out of endurance during a fight because you were forced to start it with half of your endurance bar missing from the fight before. This is the old EQ vision of after-action recovery, and is the problem as I see it. Eliminating recovery between fights, however, would fix that, because I still maintain that you shouldn't be running out of endurance during a fight you started with a FULL BAR. Do you honestly run out even then? Because THAT I have a hard time seeing.

That was actually the point I was trying to make by bringing up takes on recovery. I don't want the EQ recovery that leaves you crippled and waiting after each fight, needing to be "healed," but I don't agree with the CoH mentality of ending each fight as healed up as you started it. The middle ground is Rest - a power which forces you to wait... A little. It's still a form of after-action recovery, but at a token cost, enough to acknowledge you need it, but not enough to suck.

I'm not convinced that is a good idea. Beginner's luck only sort of works, because you tide into better enhancements well, but it still has rough spots where your accuracy suddenly sucks. Given that our endurance bars never increase (naturally) this has the potential to REALLY cheese people off, especially those of us who don't take Stamina. Suddenly sucking wind and getting WEAKER as you level up is probably the worst thing that a game could do to a player, young or old.

You have to remember that the kind of endurance performance you are after is not baseline, and I don't think it ever will be. The system does allow you to achieve it at a cost, but it's never going to just hand it to you and tell you that this is how things are intended to be. Because they're not. Whether we like it or not, endurance running out is its actual point in existence.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Soooooo true. If I see a player sucking wind I will toss em a blue. If they are about to die I throw em some greens. Most of the time you get the message that they do not have room. The tools are there but far too many people would rather have a solution that did not involve having to click an inspiration every once in a while.